MrMotivator

Exact same issue here. New iMac - OS 10.6.6 - Radeon HD 5670

and today is my day off... my one day of the week I get to play CoH :'(

as a general rule, i try to avoid teams that say they 'need' a tank. if they 'need' a tank, it usually means that they've been having their [censored] handed to them.. normally because they dont have a clue what they're doing.

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, Granite tanks are usually at the lowest of my list and I grin madly when an Ice tank joins

[/ QUOTE ]

u been reading my thoughts again?

well, those nice people at cryptic/ncsoft decided that we should get a freespec with i10: invasion...

and i say DAMN THEM ALL!!!!

i was perfectly happy with my ice/fire build, but now i have a shiny freespec sat there, i just can't help but use it. as if it didnt take me long enough to do the last build ffs!!

anywho, i decided that as my recharges are pretty good thanks to IOs that i maybe didnt need fireball anymore... which gave me a couple more power choices to play with. i wanted to try and fit aid self and weave into the build.. however i couldnt get both and still have hasten, stamina and sj.. i considered using just superspeed, but i hate the lack of vertical maneuverability. I also tried a travel power-less build on test at one point, but figured it'd just get annoying.

anyway, after much debating i decided that i'd go for weave rather than aidself. i've never had any survivability problems without weave or aidself, so neither are strictly necescary.. i just wanna try them out.

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.20
http://www.honourableunited.org.uk/mhd.php

Bondage Girl: Level 50 Natural Tanker
Primary Power Set: Ice Armor
Secondary Power Set: Fiery Melee
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Arctic Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Frozen Armor <ul type="square">[*] (A) Red Fortune - Defense[*] (3) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance[*] (3) Red Fortune - Defense/Recharge[*] (13) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance/Recharge[*] (13) Red Fortune - Endurance[*] (19) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed[/list]Level 1: Scorch <ul type="square">[*] (A) Pounding Slugfest - Accuracy/Damage[*] (50) Pounding Slugfest - Damage/Endurance[/list]Level 2: Hoarfrost <ul type="square">[*] (A) Doctored Wounds - Heal/Endurance[*] (5) Doctored Wounds - Heal[*] (5) Doctored Wounds - Endurance/Recharge[*] (7) Doctored Wounds - Heal/Recharge[*] (7) Doctored Wounds - Recharge[/list]Level 4: Combustion <ul type="square">[*] (A) Multi Strike - Accuracy/Damage[*] (9) Multi Strike - Damage/Recharge[*] (11) Multi Strike - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance[*] (11) Multi Strike - Damage/Endurance/Recharge[*] (17) Scirocco's Dervish - Accuracy/Recharge[*] (27) Scirocco's Dervish - Damage/Recharge[/list]Level 6: Chilling Embrace <ul type="square">[*] (A) Endurance Reduction IO[*] (15) Taunt Duration IO[*] (17) Taunt Duration IO[/list]Level 8: Hasten <ul type="square">[*] (A) Recharge Reduction IO[*] (9) Recharge Reduction IO[*] (15) Recharge Reduction IO[/list]Level 10: Kick <ul type="square">[*] (A) Empty[/list]Level 12: Swift <ul type="square">[*] (A) Run Speed IO[/list]Level 14: Wet Ice <ul type="square">[*] (A) Endurance Reduction[/list]Level 16: Health <ul type="square">[*] (A) Numina's Convalescence - +Regeneration/+Recovery[*] (27) Regenerative Tissue - +Regeneration[*] (29) Healing IO[*] (37) Numina's Convalescence - Heal[/list]Level 18: Glacial Armor <ul type="square">[*] (A) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance[*] (19) Red Fortune - Defense[*] (21) Red Fortune - Defense/Recharge[*] (40) Red Fortune - Endurance/Recharge[*] (43) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance/Recharge[*] (46) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed[/list]Level 20: Stamina <ul type="square">[*] (A) Endurance Modification IO[*] (21) Endurance Modification IO[*] (23) Endurance Modification IO[/list]Level 22: Icicles <ul type="square">[*] (A) Multi Strike - Accuracy/Damage[*] (23) Multi Strike - Damage/Endurance[*] (25) Multi Strike - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance[*] (25) Multi Strike - Damage/Endurance/Recharge[/list]Level 24: Build Up <ul type="square">[*] (A) Recharge Reduction IO[*] (46) Recharge Reduction IO[*] (50) Recharge Reduction IO[/list]Level 26: Energy Absorption <ul type="square">[*] (A) Red Fortune - Defense/Recharge[*] (29) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Recharge[*] (31) Gift of the Ancients - Defense/Recharge[*] (31) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed[*] (31) Recharge Reduction IO[*] (33) Endurance Modification IO[/list]Level 28: Fire Sword Circle <ul type="square">[*] (A) Multi Strike - Accuracy/Damage[*] (33) Multi Strike - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance[*] (33) Multi Strike - Damage/Endurance/Recharge[*] (34) Multi Strike - Damage/Recharge[*] (34) Scirocco's Dervish - Damage/Recharge[*] (34) Scirocco's Dervish - Accuracy/Recharge[/list]Level 30: Combat Jumping <ul type="square">[*] (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed[/list]Level 32: Hibernate <ul type="square">[*] (A) Numina's Convalescence - Heal/Recharge[*] (36) Numina's Convalescence - Heal[*] (36) Recharge Reduction IO[*] (36) Doctored Wounds - Heal/Recharge[/list]Level 35: Tough <ul type="square">[*] (A) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Endurance[*] (37) Titanium Coating - Resistance/Endurance[*] (37) Aegis - Resistance/Endurance[*] (46) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/+Def 3%[/list]Level 38: Incinerate <ul type="square">[*] (A) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage[*] (39) Crushing Impact - Damage/Recharge[*] (39) Crushing Impact - Damage/Endurance[*] (39) Crushing Impact - Damage/Endurance/Recharge[*] (40) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge[*] (40) Recharge Reduction IO[/list]Level 41: Greater Fire Sword <ul type="square">[*] (A) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage[*] (42) Crushing Impact - Damage/Endurance[*] (42) Crushing Impact - Damage/Endurance/Recharge[*] (42) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge[*] (43) Crushing Impact - Damage/Recharge[*] (43) Recharge Reduction IO[/list]Level 44: Weave <ul type="square">[*] (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance[*] (45) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance[*] (45) Gift of the Ancients - Defense/Endurance[*] (45) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed[/list]Level 47: Block of Ice <ul type="square">[*] (A) Devastation - Accuracy/Damage[*] (48) Devastation - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge[*] (48) Entropic Chaos - Accuracy/Damage[*] (48) Entropic Chaos - Damage/Endurance/Recharge[*] (50) Hold Duration IO[/list]Level 49: Super Jump <ul type="square">[*] (A) Jumping[/list]------------
Level 1: Brawl <ul type="square">[*] (A) Empty[/list]Level 1: Sprint <ul type="square">[*] (A) Run Speed IO[/list]Level 2: Rest <ul type="square">[*] (A) Empty[/list]Level 1: Gauntlet
------------
[u]Set Bonus Totals:[u]<ul type="square">[*]+4% DamageBuff[*]+3% Defense(Smashing)[*]+3% Defense(Lethal)[*]+3% Defense(Fire)[*]+3% Defense(Cold)[*]+3% Defense(Energy)[*]+3% Defense(Negative)[*]+3% Defense(Psionic)[*]+3% Defense(Melee)[*]+3% Defense(Ranged)[*]+3% Defense(AoE)[*]+14% Enhancement(Accuracy)[*]+4% Enhancement(Heal)[*]+62.5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)[*]+27.1 (2.25%) HitPoints[*]+MezResist(Immobilize) (Mag 8.8%)[*]+MezResist(Sleep) (Mag 4.95%)[*]+MezResist(Stun) (Mag 4.95%)[*]+MezResist(Terrorized) (Mag 2.2%)[*]+94% Regeneration[*]+6.62% Resistance(Fire)[*]+6.62% Resistance(Cold)[/list]


<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>| Copy &amp; Paste this data chunk into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
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</pre><hr />

now, this is a respec build.. hence sj being left till lvl49. if i exemp i can always use jetpacks for traveling. incase you're interested about her rough stats; she's up to 42% def to s/l/en/neg without nrg absorbtion, has 15 sec downtime on hasten, is at perma-hp cap, and is regenning 42hp/sec

if anyone has any thoughts/comments they are most appreciated.
Thanks

coincidentally, on one build i managed to get hasten down to 3 seconds downtime, without actually gimping any of her powers! i reckon if i dropped icicles i could get perma hasten.. but i like the way they look too much

[ QUOTE ]
I teamed with a L20 Fire tank a while ago who had taken Whirlwind as his L20 power...Didn't work too well with Burning Aura

And more recently I teamed with:

A Low 40s Invuln tank who despite having all of the toggle powers only ran Invincibility and Unstoppable when available

A L20 Invuln tank who only had the passive resists

A L22 Invuln tank with no unyielding

Problem is gimped tanks are more noticeable than other classes as they play such a pivotal role in a good team

[/ QUOTE ]

i knew an invul/ss tank who made it into the 30s with:

flurry, hasten, superspeed and whirlwind and cj, sj and acrobatics!? no stamina, no rage and no taunt and some incredibly dodgy slottings..

i also knew a lvl 50 fire/fire tank who had slotted healing flames for damage resist...

[ QUOTE ]
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but we dont even actually know if most current tank builds could even stand up to 30 +2s, let alone worry about killing them.

[/ QUOTE ]There's quite a few people on these forums who can do detailed calculations on just how much incoming damage a build can take constantly without dying. You only need to multiply the damage currently generated by 15 mobs by 2, and you'll see if it'd work.

And personally, I think many builds could do it for most foe types, certainly if they had at least one (de)buffer as support.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think many builds could, but i'd certainly be tweaking my builds a bit. they can handle 17 mobs fine, but i'd be looking at aidself and maybe weave for my ice tank if the cap was raised. It would depend how defensive your current build was i guess.

[ QUOTE ]
I think that the main problem with raising the aggro cap would be that you would also be under considerable pressure to raise the AoE caps for most AoE powers.

Think about it: if a tank has 34 foes aggroed (double the current cap) you'd need to be able to kill them. Now say a Blaster or Controller uses Fire Ball or a similar AoE or cone... only 5-16 foes at a time are going to be effected, and there's no guarantee that subsequent AoEs will hit the same 5-16 mobs.

A typical Blaster nuke (say Inferno) can hit a maximum of 16 targets - that's less than half of what a Tanker would be able to herd. Controller AoE powers would not work well either, since there's no guarantee even more than one Controller would be able to handle all 34 mobs (16 would be hit with one application of an AoE hold, 16 with the next, etc. Chances are there'll be some overlap!). Taunt auras would also need to be tweaked, "range of effect" increased and "maximum number of mobs hit" bumped up.

You'd end up see "Rain" or semi-pet powers like Blizzard, and Earthquake/Ice Slick used more and more in order to be able to hit them all at once. Ice Blasters could also quickly become PvE FOTM due to Blizzard and Ice Storm ignoring the target AoE caps... etc.

In short... though my INV Tanker would welcome the increased aggro-control ability of being able to tank more than 17 mobs at once, raising the aggro cap would be a lot more trouble than it first appears.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's the thing, we honestly can't say if this would happen or not without actually trying it out. I really dont see rain powers becoming fotm, instead of losing aggro of 17 badguys you'd be losing the aggro of 30... that's like saying burning fire tanks would become fotm again.

I'll admit, it may have more far reaching effects that i can see.. but we'll never know if it's never tested. This is just hypothetical at the moment, so no-one can say definatively if it would be good or bad. If it went on to test and there were loads of problems, i'd be the first to hold up my hand and say "ok, this aint gonna work"... and i can see that some people may try and find ways to abuse the new system... but we dont even actually know if most current tank builds could even stand up to 30 +2s, let alone worry about killing them.

[ QUOTE ]
How bout! return it to Pre ED and see what happens! Gosh I have no idea what could happen!

/devs ftw! Tanker herds mission to the door where there awaits 16 tripmines...

Aggro caps effect all players not just Tankers btw

[/ QUOTE ]

we know what pre-ED was like. post-ed and post-nerf tanks with invention builds would fare somewhat differently to pre-ed tanks. yes, the aggro cap effects all players... and this would be a totally different discussion if we were talking about removing all caps, cause then you'd be back to blasters nova-ing a nicely herded 100 or so badguys.. which we dont want.

but that's not what we're talking about here. this isn't a discussion about ED. i would never suggest they get rid of the cap completely - that'll never happen, so i'd rather shoot for a more achievable goal... and the only way to know if there would be exploits, or 'balance' problems with increasing the cap would be to test it.

[ QUOTE ]
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I think an increase in aggro cap would show the weakness of a fire tanks primary.

Other tanks would cope much more easily with bigger mobs

[/ QUOTE ]

just because you can aggro more, doesnt mean it would always be the best course of action. you'll still only be able to kill as fast because of AoE caps. i dont honestly think we'd know how it would affect us until it was on test, because so much has changed since the aggro cap was introduced.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think they should get rid of the aggro cap on test for a weekend, just to see what impact it has on the current gameplay.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think that'd be a good idea. would be interesting to see how modern tanks cope, and see if it does have any adverse effects or not.

[ QUOTE ]
I think an increase in aggro cap would show the weakness of a fire tanks primary.

Other tanks would cope much more easily with bigger mobs

[/ QUOTE ]

just because you can aggro more, doesnt mean it would always be the best course of action. you'll still only be able to kill as fast because of AoE caps. i dont honestly think we'd know how it would affect us until it was on test, because so much has changed since the aggro cap was introduced.

[ QUOTE ]
Aggro cap suits AoE caps fine. If someone pulls extra groups then maybe the herdpoint isnt offering safe ample range for others to get the best output of their attacks especially cones. Other than that people pulling extra groups have something to learn by.

[/ QUOTE ]

lets face it, in PuGs you dont always get the best companions to team with... and once one nut case aggros another group, if you cant get the aggro on you, then after it's defeated its agressor the mob will happily work its way through the rest of the team

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, while I would like getting rid of it altogether, that's not going to happen.

I think an increase would be good though, to something like 30 or 40 mobs.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah getting rid of it altogether would be great as tanks arent complete gods like before the aggro cap was introduced but like you said it probably wont happen, and increase would be great though.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think "probably wont happen" is being a bit optimistic..

however, i feel an increase (say a doubling of the cap) would be a great boon for the tanking community without giving us the ability to herd entire maps. As it is anyway, even if we could herd the whole map we can still only hit ten at a time with PBAoEs.

raising the cap to 30 would allow us to have a bit of fun solo/duo, and give us extra breathing room in teams - ya know when you have two mobs around you and some muppet manages to aggro a third... currently they die needlessly when you could easily manage the extra aggro. I mean, why 17?! its such a random number to choose

i think now, with new powersets on the horizon, it would be a good time to address some of the issues the tanking community has. and no, i don't mean make us uber again! but there are lots of little things that could be done to make tanking more enjoyable and rewarding, raising the aggro cap a bit would be the most saught after of those i think.

as this came up a lot in another discussion...

i was just wondering what people's views on the aggro limit are? is it fine as it is, or should it change?

it was the only video i could find of pre nerf herding.. so sue me. if i could find one of a bigger herd i'd have used that. i didnt know how to make videos of the game at the time, otherwise would have a few corkers for ya.

[ QUOTE ]
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on a side note, it's nice to see the tanker forum being active!

even if it is mostly just the usual posters posting more often

[/ QUOTE ]

Two things I dont like to see.

1) Too many people arguing with one person at once. Its like being launched at from all sides. I personally love it if its me.

2) Remarks like, "You cant be any good at "this" if you dont know "this".

3) When people are arguing about 2 different things thinking they are the same thing due to how its worded.

Edited: for my recount of 3

[/ QUOTE ]

oh dont get me wrong, this is in no way a good thread.. it's mostly trolling, insults and repetitive arguments.

but its at least making us look like we use our section of the forum...

on a side note, it's nice to see the tanker forum being active!

even if it is mostly just the usual posters posting more often

[ QUOTE ]
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Back in the day it was hundreds. And, without taunt as it used to be, it cannot be done.

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Sound reasoning, were it not for the fact that with the aggro cap in place, it doesn't matter in the slightest that Taunt can only affect 5 mobs at a time because you can't control aggro for more than 17 mobs.

[/ QUOTE ]
Spad the argument didn't relate to that. I was purely stating, as a response to an earlier post that, because of the taunt nerf, you cannot herd ala the old days.

As I said even if every factor of the game was the same except taunt, it couldn't be done because, firstly, to run around aggroing that sort of number and keeping them, even if the other team members were half a map a way, would be time consuming to the point of pointless.
Secondly, unless you were refreshing the map constantly with taunt (pre I5), you cannot MANAGE that sort of aggro.
You'de be forever chasing your tail because of aggro duration.

[/ QUOTE ]

so... you wouldn't be able to do this without taunt? strange.. cause i dont even see the tank targetting any mobs until the end of the fight

[ QUOTE ]

Back then a single taunt would pull almost everything in site. So, for instance, take an AV map and an 8 man team. You see maybe 20 or 30 villians then a bit further another 20 or 30 and so on.

The Tank would jump in the middle of the first mob, one taunt, then run to the second and taunt and then the third... 2 minutes later he would have hundreds of baddies attacking him. The team would then pick them off.


[/ QUOTE ]
so you taunt each mob at a time?

see... now... the guy in the video earlier herded 15 mobs and was back at his herd point in under 30 seconds without using taunt.. with six slotted taunt for recharge, you'd have it up every three seconds or so.. so you'd be back to your herd point in just over 45 seconds for herding 15 mobs. so... the 'big boys' herd slower than us little fish?

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Not denying it. that's why taunt had to be weakened.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Weakening taunt had nothing to do with it. I could still do it just fine with my tank if it wasn't for the aggro cap. And that tank doesn't even HAVE taunt. Obviously killing would take much longer with the AoE cap on attacks, but the herding itself is only countered by aggro cap, not taunt nerf.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why I commented you can't have ever herded with the big boys, Max. You cannot possibly believe that and know what true herding was.

Why don't you try it with the freakshow. After all, they're S/l in the main. Get someone to buff you if you need to. See how many you can pull.

You have no idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

out of interest, how many can you herd at once?

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but imho invul is fine, even tanked the STF with it. The reason you might be doing bad is that you don't get the point of Dull Pain. Just hit it before you enter a mob and it doesn't really matter what damage type they throw at your massive amount of hp. You can't rely on your shields alone, you need damage mitigation. I use invoke panic to reduce the minions to eh nothing and footstomp to keep the whole spawn in the air. Invul leads to a more active role of tanking imho because the aura is less effective and unstoppable has a nasty drop (which I love), but wouldn't want it any other way

[/ QUOTE ]

personally, i'd never use dull pain before a mob.. it does heal +max hp, so you're wasting one of the components if u use it on full HP.

also invincibility is second only to chilling embrace in terms of aggro management, it just doesnt have a nice effect to show you when its working, so people often under-rate it

I will happily agree that invul and fire are the least popular of the tank primaries at the moment. Are they necescarily underpowered? no. personally i'd like to see all tanks be boosted slightly, find a middle ground between pre-ED and current tanks. The changes i'd make, were I allowed to, are:

double the herd cap
increase the number of enemies that PBAoEs hit to 15
Temperature protection gets some slow resistance and small kb protection (say -3/4)
Burn gets slow added. it should be consistent with hotfeet/rain of fire/ice storm.. after all, that was their reason for adding repel in the first place
Invul passives give 50% more bonus.
stone armours have reduced endurance cost. ex Granite armour, which has increased endurance cost.
enemy accuracy buffs are scaled down - DE crystals, nem's vengenace etc..

[ QUOTE ]
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was gr8 fun

[/ QUOTE ]

For the fire tank..

[/ QUOTE ]

I had an easier time with my Inv./Fire than my Fire/Fire tank tbh.


The only thing I actually found annoying about those days was the constant "can u pl me plz??". One guy even tried to book me for pl'ing a certain day, gheeeez.... But that kinda went with having the ability to do so.

It's not like those days are over though. Pl'ing is just as easy as before, just with other ATs with certain builds.

[/ QUOTE ]

i still get tells from people asking to pl or bridge. never really bothered me to be honest.

There's enough content in the 40-50 range to make most people want to play through it, even if they could just dreck to 50. I still never bore of doing the praetorian missions, but it's nice to let your hair down once in a while and pretend you are actually superpowered again with a run around dreck.

the reason that inv is fine is because it is split def/res. you increase the def and it encroaches further on ice tanks.. there are already a few ice tanks who disagree that inv should be as defence based as it is.

how do i think the sets fare?
Ice is good as it is, will be awesome if they sort out the dodgy accuracy buffs that some enemies have... best aggro holding ability. also has, imo, the most useful tier9... with good enough recharge there's no need for an ice tank to die after lvl32 unless it makes a mistake.

Stone feels slightly less powerful than ice, and with reduced maneuverability.. but as compensation they have a god mode toggle. GA is very tough, however it has severe troubles holding aggro, has reduced maneuverability, and lower damage.. which, imo, balances it out.

Inv has good res to s/l and some res to other damage types. Has good defence to all and good aggro holding ability, also has a god-mode power, but without the restrictions of GA. However you have to put up with it crashing (tho having said that, provided you have a CaB the crash is easy to deal with thanks to the blinky buff icons)

Fire has lower s/l res than inv, no defence, no kb protection and immob protection that loses you aggro left right and centre. In return it gets the best damage aura... but not comparable in terms of aggro management to the taunt auras of ice/inv, a self damage buff, a good self heal.. but no maxhp boost, and the only tier9 which requires you to die to be used.

imo, they are all balanced except fire. Fire get extra damage in the form of fieryembrace.. but it really isnt enough to compensate for the lack of defences. Burn used to do that by providing mitigation by damage. now it doesnt.

to be fair to the guy, it's not like he's herding the map without support. he has four luck insps and three fortitudes as well as RA on him at all times... anything could tank a map with that amount of buffs.

The thing that i look back at and miss isn't necescarily the strength of the tanks, it's the aggro and hit caps that we have to deal with these days. Obviously, i'd love to see tanks made a bit stronger, but tbh without removing/modifying the aggro cap there isnt much point as most well built tanks can tank at the aggro cap already against most villain groups.

yes, it may have only been fun for the tank (or the blaster/def with their finger hovering over nova), but
a) this is a tanker forum...
b) you didnt HAVE to bridge, there were plenty of normal teams going around

there was an awful lot of fun in the occasional mega-herd, and thats why people play the game after all.. to have fun

i found this whilst looking at another you-tube link someone had posted.

now, i dont wanna start a whole discussion over 'Fiery aura needed nerfing' or not...tho personally i'd like to be able to find a middle ground between then and now in regards to tanking in general... but watching this brought back a fair few memories.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpq_FmAt_VU

i only take it early because i want the other big powers when they appear, and i prefer to get my defence sorted before i work on offense. Fire tanks can easily slot tough in at 32, cause most don't take RoTP