Well, while I would like getting rid of it altogether, that's not going to happen.
I think an increase would be good though, to something like 30 or 40 mobs.
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Well, while I would like getting rid of it altogether, that's not going to happen.
I think an increase would be good though, to something like 30 or 40 mobs.
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yeah getting rid of it altogether would be great as tanks arent complete gods like before the aggro cap was introduced but like you said it probably wont happen, and increase would be great though.
I believe somewhere around 25 mobs would be a good adjustment. But yea, I'd love to get rid of it.
@False Fiction - Virtue / Defiant
Current projects - [Glaciologist - Ill/Cold Troller] [Cloudshaper - Storm/Dark Def] [Harald Wartooth - Elec/Psi Domi]
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Well, while I would like getting rid of it altogether, that's not going to happen.
I think an increase would be good though, to something like 30 or 40 mobs.
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yeah getting rid of it altogether would be great as tanks arent complete gods like before the aggro cap was introduced but like you said it probably wont happen, and increase would be great though.
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i think "probably wont happen" is being a bit optimistic.. 
however, i feel an increase (say a doubling of the cap) would be a great boon for the tanking community without giving us the ability to herd entire maps. As it is anyway, even if we could herd the whole map we can still only hit ten at a time with PBAoEs.
raising the cap to 30 would allow us to have a bit of fun solo/duo, and give us extra breathing room in teams - ya know when you have two mobs around you and some muppet manages to aggro a third... currently they die needlessly when you could easily manage the extra aggro. I mean, why 17?! its such a random number to choose
i think now, with new powersets on the horizon, it would be a good time to address some of the issues the tanking community has. and no, i don't mean make us uber again! but there are lots of little things that could be done to make tanking more enjoyable and rewarding, raising the aggro cap a bit would be the most saught after of those i think.
Aggro cap suits AoE caps fine. If someone pulls extra groups then maybe the herdpoint isnt offering safe ample range for others to get the best output of their attacks especially cones. Other than that people pulling extra groups have something to learn by.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I think an increase in aggro cap would show the weakness of a fire tanks primary.
Other tanks would cope much more easily with bigger mobs
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I think an increase in aggro cap would show the weakness of a fire tanks primary.
Other tanks would cope much more easily with bigger mobs
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You got numbers to prove that?
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Aggro cap suits AoE caps fine. If someone pulls extra groups then maybe the herdpoint isnt offering safe ample range for others to get the best output of their attacks especially cones. Other than that people pulling extra groups have something to learn by.
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lets face it, in PuGs you dont always get the best companions to team with... and once one nut case aggros another group, if you cant get the aggro on you, then after it's defeated its agressor the mob will happily work its way through the rest of the team
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I think an increase in aggro cap would show the weakness of a fire tanks primary.
Other tanks would cope much more easily with bigger mobs
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just because you can aggro more, doesnt mean it would always be the best course of action. you'll still only be able to kill as fast because of AoE caps. i dont honestly think we'd know how it would affect us until it was on test, because so much has changed since the aggro cap was introduced.
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Aggro cap suits AoE caps fine. If someone pulls extra groups then maybe the herdpoint isnt offering safe ample range for others to get the best output of their attacks especially cones. Other than that people pulling extra groups have something to learn by.
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lets face it, in PuGs you dont always get the best companions to team with... and once one nut case aggros another group, if you cant get the aggro on you, then after it's defeated its agressor the mob will happily work its way through the rest of the team
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Yes then you kick the nut! Alot of peoples idea of tanking is, get a good build, run in and hit the boss and thats it. But no, apart from many other things its also "think ahead", "think for others" which is why I like to tell people what I am doing and hope theyd cooperate, its all to ofc make allowances for the LoS and perception of enemy on the teams behalf but if they dont the price maybe paid. In an atta cave I'll see a T junction, large group one side, but no large group the other as far as I can see, now if a n00b wants to run ahead of me and get planted by those around the blind corner then I will assume that is the case. No point compromising the rest of the team over an individuals mistake.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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I think an increase in aggro cap would show the weakness of a fire tanks primary.
Other tanks would cope much more easily with bigger mobs
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just because you can aggro more, doesnt mean it would always be the best course of action. you'll still only be able to kill as fast because of AoE caps. i dont honestly think we'd know how it would affect us until it was on test, because so much has changed since the aggro cap was introduced.
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i think they should get rid of the aggro cap on test for a weekend, just to see what impact it has on the current gameplay.
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I think an increase in aggro cap would show the weakness of a fire tanks primary.
Other tanks would cope much more easily with bigger mobs
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just because you can aggro more, doesnt mean it would always be the best course of action. you'll still only be able to kill as fast because of AoE caps. i dont honestly think we'd know how it would affect us until it was on test, because so much has changed since the aggro cap was introduced.
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i think they should get rid of the aggro cap on test for a weekend, just to see what impact it has on the current gameplay.
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i think that'd be a good idea. would be interesting to see how modern tanks cope, and see if it does have any adverse effects or not.
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I think an increase in aggro cap would show the weakness of a fire tanks primary.
Other tanks would cope much more easily with bigger mobs
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just because you can aggro more, doesnt mean it would always be the best course of action. you'll still only be able to kill as fast because of AoE caps. i dont honestly think we'd know how it would affect us until it was on test, because so much has changed since the aggro cap was introduced.
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i think they should get rid of the aggro cap on test for a weekend, just to see what impact it has on the current gameplay.
[/ QUOTE ]That's assuming that aggro cap is a piece of code that can easily be removed. Knowing cryptic, there's no guarantee that's the case.
How bout! return it to Pre ED and see what happens! Gosh I have no idea what could happen!
/devs ftw! Tanker herds mission to the door where there awaits 16 tripmines...
Aggro caps effect all players not just Tankers btw
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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How bout! return it to Pre ED and see what happens! Gosh I have no idea what could happen!
/devs ftw! Tanker herds mission to the door where there awaits 16 tripmines...
Aggro caps effect all players not just Tankers btw
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nah just the aggro cap, if they can as MaX said.
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How bout! return it to Pre ED and see what happens! Gosh I have no idea what could happen!
/devs ftw! Tanker herds mission to the door where there awaits 16 tripmines...
Aggro caps effect all players not just Tankers btw
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we know what pre-ED was like. post-ed and post-nerf tanks with invention builds would fare somewhat differently to pre-ed tanks. yes, the aggro cap effects all players... and this would be a totally different discussion if we were talking about removing all caps, cause then you'd be back to blasters nova-ing a nicely herded 100 or so badguys.. which we dont want.
but that's not what we're talking about here. this isn't a discussion about ED. i would never suggest they get rid of the cap completely - that'll never happen, so i'd rather shoot for a more achievable goal... and the only way to know if there would be exploits, or 'balance' problems with increasing the cap would be to test it.
Raising the aggro cap slightly may have its implications, 17 isnt a normal figure, its a odd figure not like a "lets make it 20" figure. For me there is a reason for that figure.
16 tripmines I believe could hit the entire 100 and so Id agree with keeping that figure down and no I dont find /devs unbalanced at all so lets leave tripmine rechg well alone 
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Raising the aggro cap slightly may have its implications, 17 isnt a normal figure, its a odd figure not like a "lets make it 20" figure. For me there is a reason for that figure.
16 tripmines I believe could hit the entire 100 and so Id agree with keeping that figure down and no I dont find /devs unbalanced at all so lets leave tripmine rechg well alone
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ive always wondered why its 17.....
I think that the main problem with raising the aggro cap would be that you would also be under considerable pressure to raise the AoE caps for most AoE powers.
Think about it: if a tank has 34 foes aggroed (double the current cap) you'd need to be able to kill them. Now say a Blaster or Controller uses Fire Ball or a similar AoE or cone... only 5-16 foes at a time are going to be effected, and there's no guarantee that subsequent AoEs will hit the same 5-16 mobs.
A typical Blaster nuke (say Inferno) can hit a maximum of 16 targets - that's less than half of what a Tanker would be able to herd. Controller AoE powers would not work well either, since there's no guarantee even more than one Controller would be able to handle all 34 mobs (16 would be hit with one application of an AoE hold, 16 with the next, etc. Chances are there'll be some overlap!). Taunt auras would also need to be tweaked, "range of effect" increased and "maximum number of mobs hit" bumped up.
You'd end up see "Rain" or semi-pet powers like Blizzard, and Earthquake/Ice Slick used more and more in order to be able to hit them all at once. Ice Blasters could also quickly become PvE FOTM due to Blizzard and Ice Storm ignoring the target AoE caps... etc.
In short... though my INV Tanker would welcome the increased aggro-control ability of being able to tank more than 17 mobs at once, raising the aggro cap would be a lot more trouble than it first appears. 
I don't think it'd cause that many problems, really. Unless you intentionally herd to the cap (In which case you should know what you're doing, or end up dead), the increase would only really affect those situations when somebody accidentally aggroes too many foes, and currently, the tank can't in any way aggro them all and protect the team.
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Ice Blasters could also quickly become PvE FOTM due to Blizzard and Ice Storm ignoring the target AoE caps... etc.
[/ QUOTE ] AFAK, while it's said they do this, they don't in practise. They just switch to new targets once the old ones die since they work in ticks.
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I think that the main problem with raising the aggro cap would be that you would also be under considerable pressure to raise the AoE caps for most AoE powers.
Think about it: if a tank has 34 foes aggroed (double the current cap) you'd need to be able to kill them. Now say a Blaster or Controller uses Fire Ball or a similar AoE or cone... only 5-16 foes at a time are going to be effected, and there's no guarantee that subsequent AoEs will hit the same 5-16 mobs.
A typical Blaster nuke (say Inferno) can hit a maximum of 16 targets - that's less than half of what a Tanker would be able to herd. Controller AoE powers would not work well either, since there's no guarantee even more than one Controller would be able to handle all 34 mobs (16 would be hit with one application of an AoE hold, 16 with the next, etc. Chances are there'll be some overlap!). Taunt auras would also need to be tweaked, "range of effect" increased and "maximum number of mobs hit" bumped up.
You'd end up see "Rain" or semi-pet powers like Blizzard, and Earthquake/Ice Slick used more and more in order to be able to hit them all at once. Ice Blasters could also quickly become PvE FOTM due to Blizzard and Ice Storm ignoring the target AoE caps... etc.
In short... though my INV Tanker would welcome the increased aggro-control ability of being able to tank more than 17 mobs at once, raising the aggro cap would be a lot more trouble than it first appears.
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that's the thing, we honestly can't say if this would happen or not without actually trying it out. I really dont see rain powers becoming fotm, instead of losing aggro of 17 badguys you'd be losing the aggro of 30... that's like saying burning fire tanks would become fotm again.
I'll admit, it may have more far reaching effects that i can see.. but we'll never know if it's never tested. This is just hypothetical at the moment, so no-one can say definatively if it would be good or bad. If it went on to test and there were loads of problems, i'd be the first to hold up my hand and say "ok, this aint gonna work"... and i can see that some people may try and find ways to abuse the new system... but we dont even actually know if most current tank builds could even stand up to 30 +2s, let alone worry about killing them.
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but we dont even actually know if most current tank builds could even stand up to 30 +2s, let alone worry about killing them.
[/ QUOTE ]There's quite a few people on these forums who can do detailed calculations on just how much incoming damage a build can take constantly without dying. You only need to multiply the damage currently generated by 15 mobs by 2, and you'll see if it'd work.
And personally, I think many builds could do it for most foe types, certainly if they had at least one (de)buffer as support.
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but we dont even actually know if most current tank builds could even stand up to 30 +2s, let alone worry about killing them.
[/ QUOTE ]There's quite a few people on these forums who can do detailed calculations on just how much incoming damage a build can take constantly without dying. You only need to multiply the damage currently generated by 15 mobs by 2, and you'll see if it'd work.
And personally, I think many builds could do it for most foe types, certainly if they had at least one (de)buffer as support.
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i think many builds could, but i'd certainly be tweaking my builds a bit. they can handle 17 mobs fine, but i'd be looking at aidself and maybe weave for my ice tank if the cap was raised. It would depend how defensive your current build was i guess.
The idea of players getting ambushed beyond a Tankers means of control maybe part and parcel of the artificial risks to be had in game. What Maelwys said is basically what I am down to really, I agree with him. Like I said aggro cap suits aoe cap fine. If any one group was above 17 foes or peoples AoEs can hit more than a maximum of 16 then I see a real point but Id hate for Tankers to feel pressured by other players, even just to get a team into outside pools and beyond concept to achieve it.
Personally I think if your tanking in a position where someone can aggro more than you or they can handle then your tanking position isnt very good. Tankers tend to choose the place in which to fight and players act as soon as its good to reduce fight duration and damage mitigate in the process.
I have complained in the past when I have had offered a whole football field one side of a group. Someone still "needlessly" had to be on the other side, nearer extra groups. They get seen, they get attacked, its a mistake, and they may get debt for it which is an experience they but mainly the Tanker imo should learn by. If using a "dont pass the Tanker" fight point (which it is sometimes quicker to chance one than for a Tanker to have to pull away) once you find your with players that have no knowledge of perception, start pulling. Same goes for blind corners I have to simply start pulling. Most players have little knowledge of Taunt control and attack pre taunted and possibly get debt for not waiting that extra second, thats something for them to learn by but often a Tanker will say "Ready" to let people know when he has control, I like my Stomp for that. If people choose to be pre-emptive they can, in a risky circumstance, only hope measures are made intime to ensure they dont fall flat on their face
If you dont want people aggroing more mobs. Then dont fight so close to other groups. Be aware that extra villains can come from above in some places, around the next corner, in the room next to where your fighting or spawn. Think for the team.
If to get through a mission without a defeat takes a little more thought on the Tankers part then I am all for that.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
as this came up a lot in another discussion...
i was just wondering what people's views on the aggro limit are? is it fine as it is, or should it change?