Moonlighter
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Posts
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Joined
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Quote:I don't dispute the utility of the set. For mitigation I feel Parry provides equivalent protection; Parry/Divine Avalanche is better on a set with a heal and Siphon Life is better on a set with Defense.Originally Posted by CBeet
While AoE is very desirable these days, I think Dark Melee is balanced enough without having it in buckets. I see Dark as very much a self support attack set, you've got endurance management, a self heal, -tohit to enemies and a strong ST fear. The single target damage certainly feels higher than the average set and the fact it severely lowers downtime between groups and even adds to survivability in a fight (especially on a high recharge build) I feel makes up for the fact that, by itself, it can't just one shot every Minion in sight.
Dark Melee's strength doesn't lie in and of itself, but what it adds to your other powerset/s and the character's overall performance. Look at your secondary set and wonder what it would be like with no endurance problems and a small self heal added while paired up with a single-target focussed set. I for one like it paired with Regeneration, Shield and Fiery Aura and I know it's a powerhouse of survivability with Invulnerability and Energy Aura.
It's not like I am asking for AoE "in droves" rather for Shadow Maul, which many people admittedly skip, to be competitive in area with Guarded Spin. -
Quote:No, it's good single target damage. Comparable to other top sets. Dual Blades matches it or comes close enough that only timed runs show any real difference. And that set has significant bonus damage, a PBAoE and two cones for AoE attacks.Originally Posted by Andferne
You seem to think that Dark Melee is just average when it comes to ST damage. Which I believe otherwise. That it's AoE is lack luster (which I do agree with). But since it is focused more on ST damage and not AoE damage. That's fine. One power set should not be top tier in everything or even close. You have to give a little to get a little.
Soul Drain and Dark Consumption are not feasible AoEs. They are utility powers with long cooldowns that happen to do damage.Quote:When I first picked up Dark Melee I used Shadow Maul. Then after talking with some of the other DM/SD people in that thread. I found that if I was wanting to maximize my ST damage output. Shadow Maul only hindered me in that aspect. Hence why I mentioned the attack chain that I run of Midnight grasp, smite, siphon life (which is an absolutely great power), smite.
AoE powers for DM: Shadow Maul, Soul Drain, Dark Consumption. For a ST set it seems to have several AoE options. Are they great? For strictly damage, no. But for what they are there for they work wonders.
Something else that this boils down to, and it's just how things seem to work. IF Shadow Maul was to get a boost, most likely something else would suffer and I would rather keep the set as is. Because it works amazingly for everything I've experienced in game.
It doesn't work well for everything else in game. You're experience is tainted by an overpowered Shield Charge. Run some big missions on DM/SR and come back with the performance. -
Quote:Is the endurance boost really worth no AoE? I am not even talking about bringing DM up to, say, Martial Arts level of AoE here.Originally Posted by Erratic
Is it fair that DM get improved AoE? What other set directly gives you endurance (while doing damage) and buffs your damage for 30 seconds a pop (while also doing damage)?
As for damage buffs, tons of sets do that. Claws, Dual Blades, Staff and they don't require contrived herding techniques to leverage it.
No I want the set to be balanced without requiring outside help which, incidentally, all sets can leverage.Quote:If you want AoE damage it seems to me your best option comes from leveraging your defensive powerset and ancillary power pools. That's what I did on my DM/ElA/Sould Brute and taking down spawns is pretty simple. -
Quote:I don't understand what you are arguing here. Are you claiming that Dark Melee's power is so overwhelming compared to other primaries that increasing the cone size on Shadow Maul would make it too good? The fact that you don't even take Shadow Maul not only supports my suggestion, but I can't fathom why you are arguing against making a power you don't deem worthy of including in your build a little bit better.Originally Posted by Andferne
I have no issues killing any of the spawns and never slow down with my build. Going from one to the next without stopping and often leading one group to the other so I can wipe out two at once. End recovery is good enough that even carnies do not cause me to slow from mob to mob, dark. None of this with inspirations. I do not want to keep derailing your thread though. Sorry about that.
Dark Melee is geared more towards single target. Increasing it's AoE output should not be the answer if you believe it is only mediocre for ST.
Now if Shadow Maul under-performs compared to other similar AoE attacks. That would be different. Which honestly I would not know as I skip this power for reasons I've already stated.
The title of the thread mentions Shadow Maul, but your first paragraph consists of talking about it's average ST damage (It's been a while since I have looked at the numbers. But I thought a fully saturated soul drain did place Dark Melee at the top of the foot chain for ST.).
Then you move on to buffing it's AoE damage instead. Are you wanting to get DM better AoE or solve it's mediocre ST.
~ Dark Melee could use some AoE. The set is anemic even compared to Martial Arts.
~ Guarded Spin set a new standard for cone size, and that's on a set with a PBAoE and an additional cone.
~ You can say Dark Melee is single target oriented, but nothing about its single target damage performs *so* well that it justifies only one 45 degree 5 person cone. -
Quote:Because that means you end up taking forever to kill every other spawn? And balancing Dark Melee because Shield Charge is that good is probably a bad call.Originally Posted by Andferne
Why do you need more AoE with DM/SD? After each Shield Charge there is no more mob to worry about. Just a boss or two, and maybe a lt or two who can easily be dispatched with a single strike after that. Soul Drain + Against all odds + Shield charge is the end of most mobs even at +4.
My shield charge is up every 24 seconds and soul drain is just shy of being perma with a 2 second gap. -
Quote:I'd be interested to see how fast you can clear one of those maps as compared to a set with average AoE. My anecdotal experience is that it takes my DM/Shield a lot longer to clear maps than, say, Claws or even my MA/Shield.Originally Posted by Andferne
I've never timed a pylon. Honestly never really cared that much for it. When I mention comparatively, I mean from the groups is consistently run with. The toon is capable of annihilating almost anything at +4/x8 and doing so in a timely manner.
Back on your question though. Buried somewhere in this thread I know Sant and a few others talked about DM optimal attack chain and its pylon times.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=192252 -
Quote:What kind of pylon times are you getting?Originally Posted by Andferne
I dropped shadow maul a long time ago for my DM/SD build. The animation sequence is far to long for my tastes and can lock you down. As for single target damage issue. Even without soul drain saturated I am not having any issues, comparatively speaking. Midnight Grasp, Smite, Siphon Life, Smite, repeat works wonders. Long as you have enough recharge to run it smoothly.
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Quote:While I am out of practice using Shadow Maul, even when I was much better I wasted too much DPS repositioning and even then a 5 pack was uncommon. Once enemies surround you it takes a backing maneuver followed by a slight delay to get multiple opponents in the cone. Staff's cone, on the other hand, can be used fairly well, is tolerant to faster positioning, and still requires a respectable amount of skill to leverage.Originally Posted by Sailboat
Isn't the problem with Shadow Maul (and Dark Melee in general) more a "number of targets" problem than a "shape of cone" problem? I often get all five enemies in the cone...but five at a time is all Dark Melee ever gets.
It seems to me expanding it to up to 10 targets affected would be a more immediately useful change. -
Dark Melee has really drifted to the middle of the pack for single target damage. Even herding to inflate Soul Drain its single target DPS is not top tier. I am not seeing Siphon Life, as good as it is, making up for the set's utter lack of AoE.
Is there any chance we can see a buff to Shadow Maul's cone to make it equal to the cone used by Guarded Spin from the Staff set? Instead of a 45 degree cone with a 7 range make it a 90 degree cone with a 9 range. It won't be as good as the standard PBAoE, but at least Dark Melee will see some tolerable AoE from it. -
Quote:This is blatantly untrue. There are a lot of long term things that get fixed all the time. It just needs a catalyst for them to touch it, like proliferation.Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
If the devs felt it was overpowered, I think something would have been done in the last eight years
Once you stack Rage even once, which is fairly easy, defense never actually drops. You also retain the ToHit bonus so Sands of Mu hits perfectly fine.Quote:If people don't like the crash, etc. then... well, fine. Put in a second power where you *have* to pick - Rage or (essentially) build up. But... No cost = less benefit.
Yes, you can use them... however, you're missing one thing. You can't enhance them to increase your odds of hitting. If you're sitting there whiffing at -9999% damage, Sands isn't doing much good. (And I always seem to find myself using Nem or BW against Rikti drones. I might use it earlier, but the miss with those is *really* noticable at that point, since I'm usually taking energy blasts to the face!) -
I would like to say I'd roll my eyes if they had an alternate Martial Arts set like this because we'd have yet another hand to hand melee set, but if I am honest with myself I'd be excited by it and play it.
(Whoops I posted early by mistake)
A random build up would be fun, but ultimately less powerful than on demand burst damage that can be enhanced with recharge. As for CAK I'd not only miss it, but it is an important part of my chain because it is our hardest hitting attack to crit after Eagle's Claw.
Not that I wouldn't play this version. -
This concept looks strangely familiar...
I would like to say I don't think Rage breaks the game and I am not pushing for a change. The designer in me agrees with this proposal, however, for a few reasons.
Every time the devs add an attack to a power pool or epic pool or even a secondary they risk making SS even more powerful. Since the normal SS attacks are so pathetic to make up for Rage, these addition attacks can easily out pace them. Boxing is already on par with Jab for example. With the updated power pools the Boxing attacks might replace a couple of the SS attacks.
Personally I hate the Rage crash even though I know the set is over performing. I think a Super Strength that got slightly less effect from stacked rage, particularly on attacks outside the primary, but didn't crash at all would be slightly more fun for me. -
Quote:Low level melee is squishy until they get SOs at 22 and it is harder to kite. Except for Brutes since Fury is tuned for end game and makes them hit really really hard at low levels.Originally Posted by Mad Grim
The thing about Blasters is that they are a very attractive option for NEW players, not necessarily old ones. They fit so well into the comic book styling (think about how many comic book characters could be defined as a Blaster) and are very simple to play.
And, as I stated a long time ago, I'd actually recommend Blasters to new people, so long as I knew they wouldn't leave after getting killed a few times. It teaches you to play better, being a terminally squishy fighter. If you start with melee and then try to switch to a squishy, you'll flop around for a while, die a lot, and switch back.
With DFB, though, the new low level seems to be from 20-30 so maybe you are right. Maybe I am thinking old school. -
Quote:I have been advocating a power that allowed Blasters to break mez for a while. I think the cool down is too long but I applaud this design decision. I'd like to see it propagated to some other secondaries though.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
In I24 they won't lack everything anymore. And Blasters also have the closest thing we currently have to "partial protection" from mez: their intrinsic regeneration mitigation doesn't suppress, and they can shoot three attacks while mezzed. They still lack true mez protection, but they have significant mez mitigation now.
The new Blaster IO that procs mez protection will also help. I don't know if I like a design where much of your effective mez strategy comes from one IO though. -
Continuing on the thread of Natural power sets, I'd like to see a control set that feels more like an agent or superspy and less like a Ninja/Gadgeteer.
Here's my proposal:
Misdirection
Hamstring - Ranged, Moderate DoT, Foe Immobilize.
You can use a throwing knife to hamstring an enemy, preventing them from moving and causing them to bleed for a short time.
Taser Dart. Ranged, Moderate Damage, Foe Hold
You throw a dart that shocks the opponent and paralyzes them. This attack causes Lethal and Electrical damage.
Web Grenade. Targeted AoE, Minor DoT, Immobilize, -Fly, -Jump, -Recharge
You throw a grenade that creates an area of sticky, slightly acidic webs.
Mesmerize. Ranged, Target Confuse.
You have mastered the art of hypnosis and misdirection and can confuse an enemy.
Knockout Gas. Target AoE, Foe Sleep
You throw a grenade of knockout gas to incapacitate your foes.
Bodyguard. Summon Pet.
You summon a hired bodyguard for a short time to defend you with a variety of punches, kicks, and gun attacks. The bodyguard appears well dressed with a suit and tie and wears an ear piece to receive your commands.
Tear Gas. Target Location AoE, Foe Hold
You throw a grenade that incapacitates enemies, leaving them choking and gasping for air.
Body Doubles. Summon Pets.
You have hired and trained body doubles to confound your enemies. Although these body doubles are trained in various hand to hand combat styles, they look just like you, right down to the costume and features. -
Hopefully this will lead to Natural feeling control sets. Options that spring to mind are Ninja Tricks which other people have already suggested, and Chemical/Alchemical Control which involves throwing a lot of phials or grenades. Someone else suggested a control based Arrow set like Trick arrow.
I think the problem with these is the pets. Once you create Attack Drones you are drifting into Technology origins. Although you could have gangster/ninja/thug pets in a set. -
Quote:I agree that a melee cone will be very hard to use for Doms because controls prevent enemies from clumping. This should be a fan of shurikens with a longer range.Originally Posted by Granite Agent
I agree. Zwil kept *missing* with the cone on a relatively tightly packed group of mobs right in front of him. What was up with that? Looks incredibly short, like maybe Shadow Maul range at best. ???
Smashing and Lethal sets are part of the game. If you want a Natural feeling secondary, that's what you are going to get. Other than all robot missions, it isn't that bad on my Katana and Two Blade characters so it will probably be fine.Quote:Plus what is up with all the lethal damage shuriken stuff? That's terrible. Lethal is probably the most resisted damage type in game. Big disappointment in how they created the set for Doms. -
Quote:Please take your tanker agenda to a more appropriate thread.Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Based on past comments, I suspect Arcanaville may actually agree with me about Blasters with Rage.
When I use the official description of Tankers to justify why Tankers should be "devastating hand to hand combatants" who can "dish out all sorts of damage" you and others say the official descriptions don't matter.
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Quote:This is the case with all sets. Except Devices. So that ship has sailed.Originally Posted by BrandX
Sadly, Martial Combat will still be better paired with blast sets that aren't Dual Pistols or Archery (or AR or BR), due to redraw
I will note that the proc based Build Up power is much easier on redraw characters. -
Quote:I am compelled be one of the horde of DP/MC blasters in a trench coat.Originally Posted by UberGuy
Oh, man, we are going to have an invasion of DP/MC Blasters in trench coats.
Seriously, though, these sound quite nice. -
Quote:Hopefully Super Strength won't get nerfed, but honestly too much of the set's DPS comes from Rage. This makes attacks outside Super Strength which aren't reduced to compensate for Rage too powerful. Gloom and Burn are very powerful under Rage. I suspect new buffed Fighting Attacks might be too good for characters using Rage.Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Yep. There's a reason farming Brutes are all SS/Fire. If you pair SS with any other secondary its AoE damage output drops significantly.
SS/Fire also holds the crown for ST damage on Brutes. All it takes is Soul Mastery. KO Blow-Gloom-Burn. I find it funny that the top ST damage chain for Brutes only includes 2 powers from the primary.
It is a legitimate balance concern that ONE set combination is at the top of both ST and AoE damage. I've felt that way about it for quite a while now.
I would not be surprised if all the Super Strength attacks got a hefty buff and Rage was reduced to 40% or even 30% damage buff to bring it in line with the other constant buff powers like Follow Up. Hopefully it won't happen and Super Strength will retain its ability to leverage outside attacks. -
Quote:Let's hope you were as dumb as I was and ran the Summer Blockbuster 33 times on multiple alts in the last weeks to get... (2) Reduced Knockback procs and this is one of the characters you want to use them on!Originally Posted by StratoNexus
If I am in the middle of a mob and feel I need to use my sustain power RTFN, I don't think I would mind if they got knocked back.
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Thanks to Garent and MasterofCeremony. The attackable check box was exactly what I needed. Not being able to see the effects of Hide in combat was annoying as heck.
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I am a fan of Staff. Unlike most primaries, it kept its PBAoE and its low level cone and lost a lackluster cone instead. In addition it gets a huge bonus to melee and lethal defense. It also has a ranged attack. It also has a damage bonus when you build up three charges of Form.
Its single target damage is not top tier, but its plenty to kill anything you'll run across and I find having AoE options in regular play is more valuable than being able to kill an AV solo 15% faster.
Plus it really looks good. -
Quote:I might regret commenting on this conversation, but I just wanted to say that the defense boost Power Boost provides is far more valuable than its boost to any single target control.
And I go on to say /Energy, while good for the stacking longer duration stuns, cannot stack the sleeps like /Ice can. The overall control contribution of /Energy won't suffice. Better damage, yeah, less survivability most likely. I say this as an opinion though with particular experience with the combos I play.