Memphis_Bill

My Mechwarrior upgrade, should it support it, will be very similar to MW2:

New Joystick
Separate throttle
Pedals.

Twisting a joystick is just an irritating way to pilot a 'mech. Left/Right directional change on the pedals, torso via joystick and good throttle control... now that's the way to go.

Assuming anyone makes pedals any more. Don't think Thrustmaster's in existance. Time to search on CH... Possibly Saitek.

It has not been changed. Basic worktable, new base, category "Raid." No work needs to be done to get it other than obtaining salvage.

And /signed to everything else Ninus said. There are people here with exactly zero interest in PVP. PVP has never been a big selling point of this game, quite frankly. There WAS no PVP until issue 4 (arenas,) and it still didn't get all that much visibility until COV's release (zones.) There was an initial spike of interest, then that slowly died down, then - frankly, Issue 13 hit and that interest went down further, while the barrier to entrance (powers reacting completely differently in many cases - for instance, having no mez protection, only resistance, and hold durations being measured in single digit seconds even before getting resisted, for two examples) hasn't grown the population.

First, that was not a bash. That was a direct opposition to the statement you provided - which was not "I talked to some people and," but a statement that "Nobody uses bases."

Second, your post is the "bash" or, as you put it later, "flame." I made no personal attack on you, I countered what you said. If you can't handle that... don't post. Nothing I said required insults.

Third, look in the mirror before posting something like:
Consider what you're replying to. Consider what was said. Because right now - you did just what you "advised" others not to do.

Really?
I use it for transportation.
I use it for storage.
I use it for crafting.
I use it if I get defeated to pick up inspirations.

I can turn it around and say I don't use Ouro because of my base - which has no level limit to get into, and lets me get to more locations than Ouroboros does. I can start Ouro missions from the crystal inside my base. And for me - it's more true than your "nobody uses bases."

Well, there is reason. Yes, you are there. Yes, it's a PVP zone. They also get rep, and a chance at an IO drop (as well as inf/prestige, or possible salvage and insps.)

Why do you stop and kill random mobs on the streets of Paragon? They're an enemy, you're rewarded for defeating them. Why should you (an enemy to that stalker) be any different in a PVP zone? You were a target of opportunity with an attached reward.

Yes, actually it *does* answer the question.

You're assuming I *know* why you're running ("I don't want to fight.") I don't. If you say "I don't want to fight," unless you're a fast typist or have a bind - and remember, the other player *may hot have enemy chat on,* so they wouldn't see it - you're risking me catching you and killing your character. But that's still the *only* way I know your intention.

I, even interested in PVP, will run to get better position. Or to get a few seconds for a specific power to recharge. Or for my stealth to kick back in. Or to draw you over to my friends.

Running, on its own, *tells me nothing* about your desire or intention. Yes, that includes "while not attacking," since attacks make suppression kick in, slowing the runner down. Or the character could be a support character drawing me to the team, again, while counting on "target lock" to keep the chaser's attention. Or, again, you could have stealth that, since you were working on a shard ("attacking" it suppresses stealth) is not back on yet.

There are a lot of reasons to run without attacking - "I don't want to fight, just leave me alone" is only one of them.

Um - was there still playtime on your account?

What I mean is, was your account *down* (got a notice it was no longer active?) Because I did the exact same thing - but my billing period wasn't over yet. (Gametime expired the month after, but I'd switched to six month for the six-plus-one deal.)

If the second is the case, your account did *not* "lapse." It was active that entire time.

(Since I think that might not be completely clear, this is what I mean:

Joe is typically on the three month plan. Say it was due to expire October 15th. On October 7, Joe cancels billing, picks the new payment method - six month - and reenter billing. Yes, for two minutes, there's no billing and no way to renew... but Joe's account did not lapse, it was still active that entire time. If that's your situation, you did not lapse. Lack of billing info is not lack of active account. This, btw, is what I did, and I got the badges.

Now, if Joe tried to log in Oct. 15th, and got the message "your account has expired," then put in billing info - sure, there's (say) a two hour lapse there, but I'd call that petitionable.

If Joe didn't try 'til November 14th... yeah, lapse, no recourse, IMHO.)

One thing you're missing here.

Setup - we have two people.
Player 1 is there and doesn't want to PVP. We'll put him on a blaster.
Player 2 is on a stalker, and does enjoy PVP.

Player 1 is going on about his business getting a shivan when Player 2 attacks. Player 1 takes off running.

Now, we've already established that some people think "I just got ASed, I don't like PVP, and this guy probably has five buddies just lining up to kill me RIGHT NOW. I'm leaving."

You're not thinking of the flip side. Player 2, *by similar experience,* knows this guy might just be leading him into a group of his OWN buddies. Why is he attacking? To get the kill before it becomes a 5v1 blaster/tank/defender-fest and he's outnumbered, slowed, debuffed and the like. Stalkers, depending on set, don't have +perception. They're not VEATs, with their own Leadership powers built into the sets. He doesn't *know* there's not a group that hasn't taken Hyper Stealth (the zone temp power,) an Ill/ troller GI-ing his friends or the like.

Also, yes, player 1 is there for a reward - the shivan. So is player 2 - rep. And, for player 2, getting away with the kill is ALSO a reward. He's getting it before player 2's potential rest-of-the-team shows up, or so he hopes.

See... many times, it seems PVPers are painted - among other things - as all knowing gods in the zone. They "know" you're just there for the shivan/badge/whatever. They "know" you're alone. They sneak up and take your HPs, your friends HPs, and HPs from the kid/grandkid/great grandkid you wont' have for another ten years' first five characters. Well... they (we) don't. /whoall doesn't tell us anything but "There are this many unhidden people in the zone." We're taking a risk for a fight - yes, even if it's 5-on-1 in our favor, again, we might just be snagging the stragger. Or walking into a trap.

That's also part of why some PVPers like the zones. Think of how long some of you have played -do you know every map in the game? "Oh, it's this one." "Boss hunt, gah, the five-layer-cave." "Not the water room." "Infernal." "Psy Clockwork King." Be honest - you probably had the exact layout of that room in your mind as soon as that was mentioned. You know where you'll probably find enemies. Where's the boss? Oh, this room, let's just rush right to the back, or hey, they're in one of three spots.

Now, while I might know the layout of the PVP *zones,* I don't know, from one hour to the next, what I'll be facing when I step in there. Is that SK'd up "level 15" blaster someone who's never played before, or is it - say - Macskull who's going to show me new and interesting ways to get killed before I know he's there? Am I facing bait? What powers did he take? Where is he going, what is he planning? All questions I don't have to ask about PVE content (in this case, referring to "the rest of the game outside the zones.") And yes, those questions include "Is he avoiding me because he's about to hit me from over there, or trying not to fight?" and "Is he running because he doesn't want to fight, or because I'm about to meet seven of his closest, IO'd out, lvl 50 experienced PVPer SG mates?"

*I'm* not going to take the time to ask that. If I ask it before - well, you now have advance warning and have time to plan it out. If I ask after, I'm a sitting duck as I type - and can I really trust your answer, if YOU take the time to type it out instead of putting as much space between you and me as you can? If I ask before - I've just given you free information you can use to kill me.

Edit to add:

Part of *my* fun, as well, is about to come up, potentially - but isn't otherwise served very well in the PVP zones. I like to *hunt.* Even if there ends up not being a fight involved, I enjoy a hunt. It's part of why - again - much of my PVP jonesing is served by Aion these days. "Rift up!" - time to scout out the Asmodians (or Elyos, depending) and see who came through, report them back and maybe get a good couple of fights and Abyss points out of it.

Why do I say my fun is (potentially) about to come up? The winter event. One of the most "fun" PVP encounters, for me, ended up involving no fight.... hell, not even seeing the other player. I'm zipping around BB when I notice Winter horde. Now, I didn't open that present - someone else is in the zone, or was *very* recently. /whoall - they know about /ghide as well. Hmmm... Try and find the next present, see if I can find them. I'm not calling out in broadcast, I don't want them to be able to prepare for me. I track down a few more presents that have been opened - then, nothing. They may have gone into a mission. They may have left the zone. I have no idea - but trying to find out was *fun.*

And "Snare" and "Slow" as well.

Then why are you stressing, in your post, clicking on an NPC for the mission and interacting with meteors? I ask because you seemed to be sure to emphasize those over any dealings with turrets - since as you point out, I may not deal with turrets at all.

Also, what's your opinion of the "remake" of the meteor mission - specifically the firebases - I put in? It would satisfy your requirements for a "PVP" mission, but how do you feel the resulting process would be received?

Not sure if you just stopped the quote there to write the reply, or if you were writing while I added the rest to it.

With your NPC, you're ignoring one thing - the "V" in the middle. Versus. Implies some sort of struggle, contesting of the finish, etc.

"Defeat 10 Hellions" is obviously a PVE mission. Player *versus* the environment. Most players are going to call "Talk to Azuria" a fedex, not a "PVE" because... well, you're not "versus" anything.

My primary objection is with having "You talk to an NPC" or "you interact with a glowie in a non-violent manner" (IE, you click, not destroy) as any reason for labeling something PVE. As I said - I can get the meteor shards without fighting *anything,* player or environment. There's no struggle, no opposition, just time. Because, yes, if just "interact with something that's not a player" makes something PVE content, then - yes, with an admitted (even in the quoted post) stretch, nothing in the game is PVP content. You listed computers, I listed the helicopter. What, really, is the difference between them? Both are gateways to accessing the content.

Hell, in Siren's Call, I must interact with an NPC to turn in the bounty that I've gotten from fighting other players. Does that now make those PVP-only interactions PVE content, since I have to see the NPC to "complete" it? That's the rule of thumb you're giving above.

I'm saying that's a bad yardstick to use to determine "What's PVE and what's PVP."

I... somewhat agree, and somewhat don't.

Part of the issue when it comes to this, with this game, is that PVP wasn't here from the beginning. That attracted many people. Hell, TBH it's part of what I liked, having come from bad PVP experiences elsewhere (non-MMO, things like diablo and a string of thoroughly unenjoyable UT/UT2k4 experiences.) I didn't bother with the arenas - specifically that "concentrate people with no other reason to be there" experience - when they came out.

The zones, however, DID serve their purpose as an introduction to PVP to PVEers, getting people who wouldn't have touched it otherwise into the zones. In that, at least initially, they were indeed successful - I do, after all, PVP casually (I have no 'PVP builds,' characters designed for it, not part of a PVP SG, etc.) And I know between them and guides I've written, others have been introduced that wouldn't have touched PVP before. I know because they've PMd me and told me directly they weren't interested before, but decided to try PVP out and liked it.

However - Between the I13 changes and - IMHO, again - what some of the SSK mechanics did to PVP zone levels and power differences, at least for the early zones, they are broken.

For me, these days - yes, I'll still look for a fight in the zones. But most of my PVP jonesing is filled with Aion, which - again - has both sorts of experience. The Abyss is purely (well, "nearly purely") PVP. It's risk of PVP, 24/7. (Yes, it's PVPVE - perhaps we should start using that label for our zones.) And after certain levels, rifts can take players between Elyos and Asmodae, but in limited numbers (limited uses and levels,) and there are missions that specifically call for you to *go* to the other side. Yes, they could - if you're lucky - be purely PVE missions (I have, for instance, one to deliver a bundle of spy orders to an NPC, another to kill some specific animals found only on the other side, and a third to talk to some NPC) but the chance of actually DOING them without having to fight is exceedingly small. It's got more of a mix (and better balance - which IMHO comes from fewer, less specialized classes, since our 14 with multiple powersets... oy...)

In any case, honestly they have both. Concentrated in a mostly-PVP-based area, as well as "run through an open zone to do an objective." And IMHO they pull it off rather well, without what sounds like that battleground-style instance. So it can be done.

Incorrect assumption.

It may be a standard defense, but in my case, it is true. Like I said, I seem to have had far more interaction with PVPers than you in their "native land," if you will.

Of course, part of this, as well, is what you're taking as insulting or offensive behaviour. Are you seeing some of the back-and-forth as being insulting, or specifically the "u suk, ur mama blah blah, u r ****" immature nonsense?

See, if I took - say - some of the talk from a basketball court, and dropped it into a corporate office meeting, it would go from being acceptable and good natured into quite likely very offensive, and definitely inappropriate. Similarly, if I took some of what I know full well to be good-natured trash-talking to the competition and dropped it... oh... into the Legion of Catgirls channel with no context, they'd probably think I was being thoroughly insulting.

One thing with a smaller community or sub-community is that the people tend to know each other and have history. For instance, one PVPer (who I haven't seen in a while) had a stalker on Pinnacle named, as I recall, Peek-a-boo. Read the bio, find out they don't like being called "cute." That stalker and my Peacebringer had regular run-ins. I'd see them and throw out something like, "Oh, look, it's that little stalker trying to be cute" or something similar. They knew it was in fun. I knew it was. Hell, so'd most of the zone.

Drop that line somewhere out of context and it sounds like I'm putting them down or being insulting.

So... what measure are you using to judge? And is it really being seen in context?

Except... well, let's take Sam's comment:

See... the zones *do* give concentration points. The meteors don't move. The firebases don't move. The hotspots are always in one of the same points (and marked on the map.) You know where the scientists, labs, and computers are, in Warburg. You know where the bunkers are in RV.

You're directing people to specific points to initiate conflict to finish personal or zone goals. Sure, you can avoid those points - which also has you avoid PVP - but if you avoid them, and you're not there to fight people, why are you in the zone to begin with? (Barring the time badge, which can, of course, just be had by standing around inside the chopper. Which, to me, is still silly.)

OK. Let's take this to the ultimate conclusion with just this statement.

No zone in the game is a PVP zone. Why? Because you must interact with the PVE world to get there. (The flyer/chopper or its pilot, or an arena terminal. After all, by your own statement, you have to "interact with an object" - not fight, just interact - thus forcing it to be PVE.)

There, argument solved. There are no longer any PVP zones. It's all PVE with some relaxed rules about player interaction. (And quite honestly, you've just ripped the PVP out of multiple games that most assuredly ARE PVP based with that, as well.)

Sound ridiculous? Yes. But, IMHO, so does that statement as *any* measure of what's PVP or PVE.

Oh - and when is clicking on a glowie counted as "Versus?" The computer doesn't fight back. It doesn't try to prevent me from completing the mission. It doesn't give away my position (though it does keep me in place for several seconds for another player to possibly kill me.)

Edit:
So, let's redesign this to be a purely PVP mission, that cannot be completed without PVP, and has no PVE interaction (no, clicking on an NPC or glowie does not count, there is no "versus" - which implies opposition - involved there.)

What in the mission now is PVE - environment resisting and threatening (versus) you, unavoidable conflict? The turrets. I can get (and typically do) the shards without fighting anything or risking being attacked by the environment. (Jetpack, hover at 65 feet, the shivans often won't even come out. Yes, even at the meteor hidden under the trees.)

So how do we purify this mission to be strictly PVP?
1. It is unavailable if there is nobody from the other side in the game. It requires PVP to finish.
2. The firebases are completely locked down. In order to unlock them, there are no turrets - every opposing player, on defeat, releases a key. Only one is needed to enter a firebase (renamed bunker.) Teleporting is disabled.
3. Keys cannot be kept. They cannot be traded, stored, sold, or acquired in any way other than by defeating another player.
4. Bunkers will only let one player in at a time. The player must have their own key. The bunker relocks immediately after a player enters and finishes.
5. Players with keys must have taken at least X% damage from an opposing player. Confused same-side players do not count. (enter RP reason about "blood is required to activate the key.") This is to prevent someone just standing around to get killed.

Does that sound Fun? Does that sound like anybody whatsoever would bother? Or does it sound like it'd sabotage the zone, reducing population further?

SO the reward - directly influenced by mechanics and *location* (PVP zone) with associated risk, doesn't matter to you.... mmmkay.
No, and quit being foolish about it. That's direct reference to how *PVP directly influences the intent and reward of the mission*. The mission and the reward are tied together, all part of the same thing - and I mean all facets, such as difficulty, mob difficulty, end reward and the like. This attitude is visible in multiple nerfs/buffs/changes to various missions throughout the history of the game.

Neither is PVE.
Nope. I can take a processed shard away from you. PVP.

Edit: And to combine replies:
Actually, it has been in the past (to remove any semblance of anything someone could consider PVE from the PVP zones.) Said in this thread? No, not to my recollection. Often said earlier in response to "I want my badges/shivans/other rewards, I have the right to be left alone" type posts.

(I'll point out, as well, nobody's brought out an attitude that they have "the right" to be left alone - just the statement that, given their preferences, they'll leave and try some other time, which is a totally different thing.)

Is it? Half a failure, perhaps, but I'd chalk THAT up more to (a) the game not really having integrated PVP, such as having wildly different mechanics now, which only exacerbates things, and (b) personal preference of not wanting to PVP.

It certainly gets people in the zones, after all - which is part of the reason this discussion is ongoing. The desire for the reward... without the risk, in some cases, or deciding that the reward is not worth the risk.

Do please show where that argument has been put forward by "the PVP mindset." Especially when some arguing the PVP side have acknowledged multiple times that PVP is a small, small portion of the game, and of community interest.
However, by entering the zone, they agreed to the risk. That, however, is generally agreed on even by those who want to avoid it - they'll come back later. I don't think there's any argument (well, much) about that in the thread.
Why do you assume that's all that's done? Because the OP mentioned it?

Do look at the guide in my sig. I can also point out multiple - *multiple* - times where their wishes were respected, where they were even *assisted* (and I've been on both the giving and receiving end of that) with such things as shivan runs. Or where they were taken in hand and told what went wrong, what they did right, and encouraged to try again. How? Because that's the majority of what I see. Hell, that's what I *do,* and most PVPers I see *do.*
I'm tired of the PVEer mindset. All they do is steal kills, fill broadcast with lines that look like a five year old who just learned their first four-letter words, can't team, can't spell, and make life unpleasant. They have no idea how to play their characters most times, and were probably just PLed.

Does that sound ridiculous to you? Sure it does.
Does that describe a loudmouthed minority of the playerbase? Sure.
Should I paint the whole of the community with that brush? Of course not.

So you'll understand if I ask you not to do the same with the PVP community. Yes, there are some loudmouthed, bad mannered folks out there - but with *my* experience - which from your own description is probably much wider when it comes to both the zones and community - it is, indeed, a minority.

They are in a PVP zone, with PVP risk directly affecting the quality of the reward. Get it? That makes it a PVP mission.

Deal with it.

Oh, or are you going to tell me "Deal with it" isn't auto-win on an argument? Then don't you go around using it like it means your word is the world of God either.

In the time I was on virtue, it was almost all banner redside, I think I saw two Zombie.