Maelwys
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Posts
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Joined
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Quote:Sticking your fingers in your ears and altering your examples whenever you realise your initial one has been disproved does not constitute winning an argument.Originally Posted by magicj
I'd advice it too. You're not going to win this debate because you're wrong. Every single in-game example presented has supported my view, including those presented by folks who believe FFers should take the little bubbles.
I asked you in a previous post how you would propose to heal upwards of 4000 HP/second worth of Smashing/Lethal damage, and you responded by ignoring the figures (indeed, saying they're irrelevant, even though they were based on your own initial extreme example of a "Granite Tanker") and starting up a completely different argument based on a single AV with non-positional Psionic Damage attacks.
By your own comments on "How often does something like that crop up in actual gameplay", I have to ask: how much "actual gameplay" contains non-positional Psionic damage, compared to Smashing/Lethal...? -
Quote:Very rarely, which is a relevant point when comparing mitigation buffs to damage buffs, but completely irrelevant when comparing Heals to Resistance/Defence Buffs.Originally Posted by magicj
So, again I ask for the relevance of the math. By this I mean there is no question that you can run math and show incoming damage > healing, but how often does this actually happen to Granite tankers in game?
This takes us once again into the territory of "you can reach the point where you have enough mitigation", but where we need to remember that "mitigation" includes both Heals and Resistance/Defence Buffs.
Please explain to me then, exactly how you would propose to heal a tanker that gets one-shotted?Quote:Have you ever seen a Granite tanker that's getting healing die? It's an extremely rare event.
(But it just so happens I did see a Granite tanker die on the first LGTF of the two I ran the other night to test the effects of bubbles. He was bubbled with power boosted bubbles raising him almost to the defense cap all by themselves. He got one-shotted by the Clockwork AV in the first mission.)
One-shotted implies they were hit immediately, which would leave no time to heal them.
FF grants Positional defence, which covers almost all forms of Psionic Damage attacks. Power Boosted, the Tanker would have been sitting at close to 40% from the Bubbles alone, and higher with Dispersion Bubble.
The Random Number Generator can be a fickle mistress, but if something is powerful enough to one-shot you, you stand a better chance of avoiding that big hit with FF buffs than you do by relying on a healer whose heals are still animating as you faceplant. Even versus Non-positional attacks, you'd be no worse off. -
Quote:Demonstratably false.Originally Posted by magicj
I'll try to be as clear as I can.
Teams look for healers, not bubblers. Once you have a healer healing the damage, you don't need bubbles. The reverse isn't true.
See below.
Just for kicks:Quote:Originally Posted by Maelwys
OK, even though you've picked a case of extreme mitigation, I'll bite:
Granite Tankers are not at the defence softcaps, unless they take Weave or a LARGE amount of set bonuses. A normal Granite tank (with GA slotted) has around 30% Defence, and will therefore get hit roughly 20% of the time. A Granite Tanker at the softcap will get hit roughly 5% of the time. Bubbling a Granite Tank therefore has the result of cutting the amount of incoming damage that Tanker takes by 75%.
A Granite Tanker also already has ample regeneration (effectively: Healing) in Rooted. Plus direct healing and +MaxHP in Earth's Embrace. So I could make the argument that "Granite Tankers do not need heals. But every once in a blue moon they meet something that they could better handle with more defence."
Granite Tanker
+ 3 Defence SOs and 3 Resistance SOs in "Granite Armor"
+ 3 Heal SOs in "Rooted"
+ 1 Heal SO in "Health"
+ 1 Resistance SO in "Stone Skin"
= Gets Hit 18.8% of the time (31.2% Defence to all save Psi)
= Resists 90% of S/L Damage, 78% of all others save Psi.
= Regenerates 27.25 HP per second
Incoming DPS needed to overcome 27.25 HP/Sec Regeneration and Resistances:
272.5 Smashing/Lethal
123.9 Fire/Cold/Energy/Negative
Incoming DPS needed to overcome the above, plus 31.2% Defence:
1449.5 Smashing/Lethal
659.0 Fire/Cold/Energy/Negative
Incoming DPS needed to overcome the above, plus softcapped Defence:
5450 Smashing/Lethal
2478 Fire/Cold/Energy/Negative
Difference in Damage between 31.2% and Softcapped Defence:
4000.5 Smashing/Lethal
1819 Fire/Cold/Energy/Negative
Can you heal for 4000.5 HP every second?
Because that's how many HP points worth of healing softcapping a standard Granite Tanker will save you.
And that's not even counting +HP accolades or Earth's Embrace... -
Quote:OK, even though you've picked a case of extreme mitigation, I'll bite:Originally Posted by magicj
MaelwysAlts, a very good post and I agree with it 100%.
The only thing your missing is to note that teams _already have_ mitigation before they ever invite a bubbler. To give a simple example, Granite Tankers do not need bubbles. But every once in a blue moon they need a heal.
Granite Tankers are not at the defence softcaps, unless they take Weave or a LARGE amount of set bonuses. A normal Granite tank (with GA slotted) has around 30% Defence, and will therefore get hit roughly 20% of the time. A Granite Tanker at the softcap will get hit roughly 5% of the time. Bubbling a Granite Tank therefore has the result of cutting the amount of incoming damage that Tanker takes by 75%.
A Granite Tanker also already has ample regeneration (effectively: Healing) in Rooted. Plus direct healing and +MaxHP in Earth's Embrace. So I could make the argument that "Granite Tankers do not need heals. But every once in a blue moon they meet something that they could better handle with more defence."
Unless your teammates are already at the Defence softcap, Defence Buffs are simply the best form of damage mitigation you can apply to them.Quote:This example shows _why_ teams look for healers and not bubblers and it shows why there's nothing wrong with skipping the bubbles on FFers.
Resistance Buffs follow a close second, because it takes twice the amount of Resistance buffs to equal Defence buffs, and ATs have lower effective caps for Resistance than Defence. (Example: Defenders- 75% mitigation cap on Resistance, requires +75% Resistance buffs. 95% mitigation cap on Defence, requires +45% Defence buffs)
I could understand you saying that "Defence buffs are worthless compared to ToHit or Damage buffs when a team already has enough mitigation".
But you're not saying that.
You're saying that "Heals are better than Bubbles"... or at least that's the notion which people are taking from your posts.
The above argument would work equally well for a "Healer".Quote:This game is 7 years old. A significant percentage of the players are vets and they know what they're doing. Tankers and scrappers are taking and slotting their shields. Controllers know how to use their controls and pets to rival the mitigation provided by tankers. Blasters have wedding band to mitigate 30% of incoming damage in emergencies. Damage mitigation is available in abundance without ever inviting an FFer.
Then why do you want to bring more to them in the form of Healing?Quote:This is why all the math on mitigation, while not wrong, is irrelevant. Teams _already have_ mitigation.
I really don't understand the stance you're taking: Heals *ARE* mitigation.
They're simply less effective mitigation for most of PvE than Defence or Resistance Buffs.
By the above argument of "All teams already have enough mitigation", you will never need Defence buffs, Resistance buffs OR Heals. Effectively a Kinetics/Sonic Attack Defender which skipped Transfusion in favour of Siphon Power would always be preferred over the best Defence/Resistance buffing toon in every situation.
I'm not disagreeing that more buffs are sometimes superfluous- as a team which is steamrolling through content is already self-sufficient... but arguing that one type of mitigation is needed when another isn't (when neither type has hit its "buff cap") is silly.
If a team isn't dying, it isn't dying...
Heals and Buffs alike will make no difference. -
Quote:Fix incoming...Originally Posted by Avatea
Thanks for all the info all, we seem to have managed to fix the long loading issue internally. We'll let you know when we're able to get it to the live servers.
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Quote:Not that I think It'll make any difference, but:Originally Posted by Avatea
If you're still encountering this issue, please submit a /petition to our Tech support team with the following info:
- OS,
- memory,
- processor,
- video card (driver version),
- region (NA/EU) server,
- when this started,
- in game zone if possible
Hopefully we can pinpoint the source of this issue quickly with your help!
Window XP
4GB RAM (32bit OS with PAE - the "/3GB /userva=2816" switches are set in boot.ini)
Core Duo E8600@3.33Ghz / Detecting 3.25GB of RAM due to the above in Windows
NVIDIA GTX280 running 6.14.12.6099 (16th Oct 2010)
EU Server - Defiant
Just after a recent Patch - a week or two ago.
Zone is not applicable as it only happens on loading the client.
Output from CONSOLE:
This is a "cold load" - right after system startup so no caching is involved.Code:Running City of Heroes Preloading DLLs...done. (0.00) SVN Revision: UNKNOWN CityOfHeroes client count: 1 num cpus = 2 / 2 Loading message stores...done. (0.40) project euCoh renderthread 1 console 1 Initializing hardware lights...done (0.00) CPU: 3339 Mhz / Memory: 3326 MBs / Video Card: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 280 / Video Dr iver Date: Unknown / Available Memory: 2648 MBs / OS Version: 5.1.2600 / Video M emory: 1024 MBs Render settings: VBOS 1 Render path: NV1X NV2X ARBVP ARBFP DX10_CLASS NV3X NV4X GLSL Render features: WATER* BLOOM TONEMAP MULTITEX* MULTITEX_DUAL* HQBUMP* MULTITEX_ HQBUMP* FPRENDER WATER_DEPTH* DOF BUMPMAPS* BUMPMAPS_WORLD* DESATURATE AMBIENT C UBEMAP SHADOWMAP WATER_REFLECTIONS* Acceptable video card driver Caching relevant folders.. done (0.00) loading sounds.. done (0.02) loading tricks.. Initializing fragment shaders... done (0.72) Loading texture headers..Initializing vertex shaders... (82.11) loadFonts... (0.48) Networking startup... (0.86) loading grouplibs..2698 files, 61996 names (0.11) loading lod infos.. done (0.04) loading sequencers... (23.21) Loading misc... Loading message stores.. (0.04) Loading powers.. loading attrib names..done (0.05) loading vision phase names...done (0.01) loading character origins...done (0.02) loading villain origins..done (0.00) loading badges..ERROR: Can't open server/db/templates/pophelp.attribute done (0.04) loading misc..done (0.04) adding defines..done (0.02) loading power dictionary..done (0.78) loading character classesdone (0.06) loading inventory attrib files..done (0.30) loading base data..done (0.04) loading villain classes..done (0.15) loading salvage..done (0.00) loading boost sets..done (0.07) fixing pointers..done (0.00) loading recipes..done (1.67) loading text links..done (0.34) loading arena maps list..done (0.00) (3.62) Loading items.. (0.68) Loading FX info.. done (0.76) Building FX string handles.. done (0.03) Loading FX behaviors.. done (0.05) Loading villain defs.. done (0.37) Loading FX capes.. done (0.00) Loading body parts.. done (0.00) Loading NPC defs.. done (0.38) Loading ent_types.. done (0.03) (6.39) Preloading particles.. (0.35) loading Costume bins...done (0.31) Loading Player Created StoryArc Data...done (0.06) Loading Custom Critters...done (0.19) Loading Custom Villain Groupsdone (0.09) Loading Mission Commentsdone (0.01) Generating Mission Maker Data... StoryArcTemplate...done (0.64) MissionSettingsTemplate...done (0.12) WriteDialogTemplate...done (0.00) AmbushTemplate...done (0.00) BossTemplate...done (0.34) GiantMonsterTemplate...done (0.11) CollectionTemplate...done (0.01) DefendObjectTemplate...done (0.01) DestroyObjectTemplate...done (0.01) PatrolTemplate...done (0.00) RescueTemplate...done (0.47) AllyTemplate...done (0.03) EscortTemplate...done (0.03) RumbleTemplate...done (0.00) DefeatAllTemplate...done (0.00) done (1.77) Pre-loading character animations...done (0.00) Pre-loading fx geometry...done (0.04) Creating Auction Data...done (2.34) Done loading. (127.23)
Note the total time at the bottom of the screen - (127.23).
Now note the time taken by the line ending in "Initializing vertex shaders..." - (82.11). That line should only take a few seconds, and is currently taking nearly a minute and a half out of just over a two-minute load time.
[edit: Same code output after a WARM start (coh closed down and reopened) is below. Note the now-considerably-lowered texture load time: 30 seconds is still longer than I remember it being before, but it's a darn sight better than 82...]
Code:Running City of Heroes Preloading DLLs...done. (0.05) SVN Revision: UNKNOWN CityOfHeroes client count: 1 num cpus = 2 / 2 Loading message stores...done. (0.36) project euCoh renderthread 1 console 1 Initializing hardware lights...done (0.00) CPU: 3339 Mhz / Memory: 3326 MBs / Video Card: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 280 / Video Dr iver Date: Unknown / Available Memory: 2748 MBs / OS Version: 5.1.2600 / Video M emory: 1024 MBs Render settings: VBOS 1 Render path: NV1X NV2X ARBVP ARBFP DX10_CLASS NV3X NV4X GLSL Render features: WATER* BLOOM TONEMAP MULTITEX* MULTITEX_DUAL* HQBUMP* MULTITEX_ HQBUMP* FPRENDER WATER_DEPTH* DOF BUMPMAPS* BUMPMAPS_WORLD* DESATURATE AMBIENT C UBEMAP SHADOWMAP WATER_REFLECTIONS* Acceptable video card driver Caching relevant folders.. done (0.00) loading sounds.. Initializing fragment shaders... done (0.01) loading tricks.. done (0.19) Loading texture headers..Initializing vertex shaders... (30.67) loadFonts... (0.20) Networking startup... (0.81) loading grouplibs..2698 files, 61996 names (0.08) loading lod infos.. done (0.03) loading sequencers... (4.06) Loading misc... Loading message stores.. (0.00) Loading powers.. loading attrib names..done (0.00) loading vision phase names...done (0.00) loading character origins...done (0.00) loading villain origins..done (0.00) loading badges..ERROR: Can't open server/db/templates/pophelp.attribute done (0.01) loading misc..done (0.00) adding defines..done (0.00) loading power dictionary..done (0.68) loading character classesdone (0.06) loading inventory attrib files..done (0.30) loading base data..done (0.01) loading villain classes..done (0.10) loading salvage..done (0.00) loading boost sets..done (0.07) fixing pointers..done (0.00) loading recipes..done (1.60) loading text links..done (0.35) loading arena maps list..done (0.00) (3.20) Loading items.. (0.65) Loading FX info.. done (0.66) Building FX string handles.. done (0.03) Loading FX behaviors.. done (0.05) Loading villain defs.. done (0.36) Loading FX capes.. done (0.00) Loading body parts.. done (0.00) Loading NPC defs.. done (0.34) Loading ent_types.. done (0.02) (5.65) Preloading particles.. (0.35) loading Costume bins...done (0.25) Loading Player Created StoryArc Data...done (0.05) Loading Custom Critters...done (0.05) Loading Custom Villain Groupsdone (0.05) Loading Mission Commentsdone (0.00) Generating Mission Maker Data... StoryArcTemplate...done (0.60) MissionSettingsTemplate...done (0.13) WriteDialogTemplate...done (0.00) AmbushTemplate...done (0.00) BossTemplate...done (0.35) GiantMonsterTemplate...done (0.11) CollectionTemplate...done (0.01) DefendObjectTemplate...done (0.01) DestroyObjectTemplate...done (0.01) PatrolTemplate...done (0.00) RescueTemplate...done (0.46) AllyTemplate...done (0.02) EscortTemplate...done (0.03) RumbleTemplate...done (0.00) DefeatAllTemplate...done (0.00) done (1.72) Pre-loading character animations...done (0.00) Pre-loading fx geometry...done (0.04) Creating Auction Data...done (1.90) Done loading. (50.62) -
Quote:I agree that FF's main trick is Defence, to the point of almost being a "one trick pony" and that Cold brings a far wider variety of stuff to the table - mainly debuffs such as -res/-def/-regen/-recharge etc. but I wouldn't go as far as to say Cold is "far more useful" than FF. That'd be entirely situational.Originally Posted by Local_Man
The ToHit Debuff in Rad's Radiation Infection helps Phanty stay alive longer, too, but it works for the entire team AND the Defense Debuff aspect help PA hit more often. The Cold shields provide much the same benefit as FF, but the rest of the secondary is far more useful.
Cold doesn't get AoE Mez protection, the shields it has aren't affected by Power Boost, and FF's Detention Field and Force Bubble can both be very handy in certain situations.
For optimised high-level teams which already have Defence buffs and stacked mez protection? Sure, by all means take a Cold over a FF... but I'd rather have a FF with me than a Cold on a Statesman TF, for example. Same would go for a Rad. Debuffs just don't scale well versus higher level foes, especially AVs (~85% debuff resistance?)
I'd argue that Empathy would be more suited to directly replacing FF than Cold would - it's also very buff heavy (+Defence and Mez protection like FF, plus +tohit/damage/perception/regen/recovery/recharge. Even a little healing!) and Fortitude at high levels of recharge can reliably buff most of a team. The defence component of Fortitude is also on par with FF bubbles and IS affected by Power Boost.
The Illusion/Empath combo also has a major advantage over Illusion/FF in that none of FF's power gain much from building for +recharge to get perma-phantom-army, but the faster you can get Empathy's buffs to recharge the better it performs.
Having said that, I'm biased... I've got a Cold/Dark Defender (built for debuffs + damage), a Illusion/Empath Controller (built for buffs and Perma PA 'mob lockdown') and a Demon/FF Mastermind (built for survivability + damage). I'd get bored silly with /FF if I didn't have a busy primary. Illusion would probably count, I know Demons *certainly* does. -
Quote:/Ice Has Shiver too - can't say I've ever had a problem fighting EBs at the -recharge cap.Originally Posted by Bosstone
Honestly? I'm curious how any of the Manipulation sets would handle the Holtz/Honoree fight in Mender Ramiel's arc. A Devices Blaster can lay down a huge stack of Trip Mines, pull one of the EBs, summon a Gun Drone, lay down Caltrops around the Mines, and the EB is half dead before it's even within fighting range.
The Manips all have Immobilizes, but both EBs still have ranged attacks and you still have to take them out from 100% health. Ice has Ice Patch, Mental has Drain Psyche and TK Thrust, and Energy has Power Thrust, although I can't remember how much resistance EBs have to various status effects. I imagine Elec and Fire would have the worst time of it.
The downside is you can only ever run this mission once on any character. Makes it tough to do comparisons.
My /Elec had issues, certainly. But softcapped S/L defence plus the Sonic/ Primary's AoE Sleep cone plus Snowstorm + Hibernate made up for it. -
Quote:Part of the problem is that Elec/ doesn't actually have a regular farming-friendly good AoE damage attack.Originally Posted by Clouded
ELM has only 1 more AoE than SS. LR is on a 90s recharge which makes it 'ok' for farming. Thunderstrike is a decent AoE but the cast time of 3.3s is terrible and the radius is less than half of Footstomp (TS does recharge in 18s, 2s faster than FS).
The true test would be two brutes, one SS/Fire and Elec/Fire and both using the same Epic powers. Have them each run the same map 3 times and note the average time.
Elec's Positives:
Lightning Rod is definitely Elec's big player at large damage, large radius, 16 Targets hit... but it has a very long recharge time so that even at very high levels of +recharge, it's only up for every mob if you're farming at a slow pace.
Thunderstrike is rubbish for farming, far too slow animation and IIRC only part of its damage is AoE (this is certainly true for the Blaster version - the Smashing component is ST).
Chain Induction probably counts for something. Its "chaining" component does comparatively low damage, however functionally it's pretty much an AoE with a 5 target cap. Jacob's ladder is actually fairly decent too if you can use melee cones - but again, it's got a 5 target cap and in BBJ's own words (Please excuse the obvious antagonism; I'm merely quoting): "Lyger has no clue about farming. What "cone's" are you talking about Lyger? There is one attack classified cone "Jacob's ladder" which no one takes for farming which means that there are no cones in an elec/fire build for farming."
/Fire's Positives
Burn is superb, and fills is as a "regular AoE" - but again, the bulk of the damage is front-loaded and only has a 5 target cap...
Then you've also got the Damage Aura, Consume, and Fiery Embrace. The last one (FE) tends to work better when spread over multiple regularly-activated powers as it essentially adds "Proc Damage" to every attack for its duration. This means it favours Footstomp (slightly) over Lightning Rod.
SS's Positives
Footstomp is large damage over a 15 Foot Radius, with a target cap of 10.
Although Footstomp has a larger radius, it also synergises pretty well with Burn.
What about Epics?
At this point everyone usually raves about Fireball, but examine the Mu Patron pool:
Seperately, Fireball is better than Ball Lightning, but taken together with Electrifying Fences (which has a 10 Target cap - exactly the same as Footstomp), Mu beats Pyre comfortably. And you get a summon-and-forget pet to contribute extra damage too. Mu wins by MILES.
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With this in mind, theorycrafting would suggest that a SS/Fire/Mu with Footstomp, Burn, Elec Fences and Ball Lightning, plus Rage and a Striker pet is probably the best farming Brute available. Simply put: If you're well slotted then there just isn't going to be a time when you don't have an AoE available, and as we all know, the more you are attacking, the more fury you'll be generating.
An Elec/SS/Mu will come close, certainly, but due to the fact that Elec lacks Footstomp and Rage, it'll be relying on only three regular AoEs for most spawns (which means lower damage output over time than the SS due to no rage and one less regular AoE) and using Build Up + Lightning Rod for "one hit kills" when they're up. Whilst the one-hit-kills Elec can pull off are fairly spectacular, at that point there is only a few seconds difference between kililng a mob from via damage from Elec's [Build Up + Lightning Rod + AoE] and doing the same damage from SS's [Regular four AoEs + Rage]. And mobs that die in one hit don't keep your fury topped up, so going into the NEXT spawn, the SS will be slightly better off.
I'm certain that BBJ and certain others will disagree with the above "in practice", but the above is pretty much the theory behind why most on these boards tend to view SS as the better powerset choice for farming compared to Elec. -
It really depends what you're looking for out of the character.
Remember also that you can mix and match incarnate slots and change them "on the fly"...
Personally, my Stone/Elec will be working towards a Radial Paragon for Soloing/"Normal" Teaming - extra Damage and Runspeed is always nice for a Stoner.
Important Buffs: 33% Damage/33% EndMod/33% RunSpeed [2/3 ignores ED]
And a "Core Paragon" build for survivability. He's got softcapped Defense already, so extra healing in "Rooted" and Earths Embrace helps more than +Def.
Important Buffs: 45% Recharge/33% Stun/33% Healing [2/3 Ignores ED]
Note that "Radial Paragon" might be good if you're slightly below softcapped Defense, and it also amplifies Taunt effects which'd be good for extra aggro-grabbing.
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Alpha_Slot_Abilities -
Quote:I was under the impression that Damage Procs were not affected by Damage Buffs, such as Fury or AAO... which means that for the typical steamrolling Brute in-game that has ~200% Damage buff from Fury, Procs aren't all that great. They will help when building fury, certainly, or on fast activating-but-low-damage attacks which feature more than once in an attack chain.Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
Brutes have a little more leeway than Scrappers when slotting procs because of their lower AT damage modifier. This means that damage procs will represent a higher percentage of effective enhanced damage.
Out of all the melee ATs, Tankers get the best use out of damage procs (and Patron Pets) due to their low base damage modifier + Bruising's guaranteed -20% Resistance debuff. -
Quote:Nope. Total Recharge, including base 100%.Originally Posted by Syntax42
I thought Maelwys was referring to recharge bonus, not recharge bonus + base.
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Quote:Unconvinced: Poster: Original: Human Being.Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Human Contact: Through electronic mediumQuote:Originally Posted by Golden Girl
It doesn't motivate you to risk contact with human beings for 60 minutes to do an ITF?
Extrovert Nature!=Introvert Nature
Lines of thought: Noncompatible
Reaffirmation: Normal: Non-existent/Non-reasonable entity.
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Quote:If you're talking about total drops across the team, rather than total drops per-person, this is correct.Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Actually, from a shard standpoint, they do get more rewards, because every time I get a chance to get one shard, they get a chance to get eight. Statistically, that's going to work out to eight times the rewards over time.
Anything else would punish teaming on teams that don't "steamroll". -
Quote:Assuming both you and the team fight an identical number of identically ranked mobs, they don't get "more" rewards... at least where shard, recipe or salvage drops are concerned. They simply get the same rewards more quickly than you because they kill the mobs faster. Then they move on to the next mobs, whilst you start to lag behind.Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
I have nothing against the Task Force component awards (which is, essentially, four free shards for those participating in TFs, independent of drops). It's the inherent "teaming bonus" that bothers me. If I can (and I can) solo the same content as eight players, why should I be rewarded less than them for doing so?
Task Forces often have arrangements where the challenge rises above what a "standard" eight-person team would normally face, and this is rewarded by Merits, Components and other such rewards. But outside of Task Forces, I am tackling, by myself, the exact same challenge and difficulty as an eight-person team.
Why should that team be getting more rewards for overcoming the same challenge, simply because they are teamed?
If you're talking about "gated" content e.g. preventing you from soloing something by way of linked glowies or a set minimum team size... well that's another topic entirely. And one that has been debated at great, great length before: Just ask BillZBubba... -
Quote:There've been a lot of Dev posts on "risk versus reward" over the years, Synapse explained it quite well when talking about Merit rewards:Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Why? What's the justification for why this must be?Quote:
But teaming should always allow you to earn rewards faster.
Followed by another update later when reward values were "tweaked"Quote:Task Forces give an average of 1 merit every 3 minutes of average time (20 merits an hour), Trials give an average of 1 merit every 2.5 minutes (24 merits an hour), and Story Arcs give an average of 1 merit every 7.5 minutes (8 merits an hour). The reason for this major difference is due to the considerable time and effort Task/Strike Forces can take to set up and complete, so naturally these tasks grant a much greater reward.
Teamed content makes you fight more mobs, at higher ranks and levels. The Devs consider it to be "Harder", and therefore should be more rewarding.Quote:Q: Why change merits at all?
A: We want our players to be getting appropriate rewards for the tasks they're doing.
In practice, this is not often the case as there are only a limited number of ways to handle "loot". Take recipe drops: It's more efficient to solo for these because there is a set chance to get one drop on each enemy, so an 8-man team would need to get 8 times as many drops as a 1-man "farming" toon to draw even. Shards are different because every toon on the team gets an independent chance to get one on every kill: on an 8-man team if you kill one enemy, drops are limited to one recipe, but 8 shards. -
Quote:I support this idea.Originally Posted by DragonTiger
I don't want the drop rates to increase for shard pieces (though that would be nice), I want some type of non-random method for people who prefer solo play.
It seems that a repeatable, soloable mission arc which awards X shards at the end and is able to be run every Y hours would alleviate, if not eliminate, most of the complaints. I would suggest that the TF awards 1-2 shards and be 8-10 missions long, mainly to prevent it from becoming "another ITF".
At the very least this would put a "minimum cap" on the number of shards a soloist can get over a period of time without impacting upon other methods of earning shards. -
The Four-minute recast time jobbies I don't have a problem with.
Speed Boost and Inertial Reduction could really do with increased durations though. it DOES get very tedious to reapply buffs for Full Teams whenever they only last for two minutes or less (60 secs, in IR's case!) and similarly for Fortitude, Clear Mind, and Clarify.
Nerf the recharge time to double (or quadruple) it's current value, and double (or quadruple) the duration to bring it up to four minutes. Exactly the same recharge/duration ratio but alllowing you more time to use other powers between recasts. Job done.
Concerning longer 4-minute "bubble" buffs... I've a Cold/ and a Sonic/ Defender, a /Thermal Controller and a /FF Mastermind. The only time I have problems reapplying buffs is on my Mastermind. I don't mind bubbling all 7 allies on a full team, or bubbling all 6 of my pets, but doing BOTH every 4 minutes (And saving "Power Boost" for the teammates) makes it seem that it's practically all I'm ever doing... -
Quote:I don't believe that I said you "needed" to do anything.Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
No, I do not need to do any datamining. I do data analysis for a living. After 8+ hours of it 5 days a week I'm certainly not going to do so in a game. And I certainly do not need to justify my right to give feedback when it's asked for. And attempting to make my perspective look foolish was completely uncalled for.
I pointed out that if you wanted to complain about something like a drop rate being too low, simply saying that the drop rate of something is "too low" might be feedback, but is completely unhelpful to the point of uselessness unless it's backed up with details of what you have been doing, and what you think you SHOULD have to do, in order to get the drop you're looking for.
Concerning your perspective... as a Data Analyser by trade, I would expect you to know how unhelpful a [bias opinion based on no data] is when trying to troubleshoot the cause of a supposed fault. If my pointing out that there is a certain obligation on a complaining party to make sure that they are not overlooking something very obvious offends you, then I apologise. It is the result of my doing Tech Support (for a living, 8+ hours a day of it 5 days a week...) and dealing with some very stubborn and misinformed users.
As an example, just this afternoon, over the course of a 30 minute phone call, I discerned the following facts from a very irate woman in our Operations Department:
(i) She had diverted calls from a Director's Phone to her desk Phone
(ii) She had left the office
(iii) A Colleague in the same open plan office tried to transfer a call to the Director's phone.
(iv) Her phone had rung.
My Dept is partially responsible for IT Support, which does not include phones. However I know from experience how the system works, and that this woman has been employed in the Operations department as a senior secretary for over ten years, and has received training for the phone system on at least three occasions.
After thirty minutes of patiently explaining to her that this, in fact, is precisely the way that call diversion is intended to operate, she finally accepted that if she did not want the Directors phone to be diverted to her desk when she was not there, then she should take the phone diversion OFF before she left the office.
Just before hometime, on a whim, I phoned the Director's line. It reached the woman's voicemail. She had left for the day and not taken the divert off.
Some people are convinced they are always right, will happily argue from a bias viewpoint without any data to back them up, and simply refuse to back down when confronted with evidence that they are, in fact, wrong. And do it AGAIN tomorrow...
I'm not saying the above is true for you. But I am asking you shoulder a little of the "burden of proof" to show that you have a valid cause for complaint. -
Quote:Feedback is based upon experience.Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
I disagree completely. Assembling statistics and performing analyses is the job of the Developers, not the players. The fact that some players have the time and inclination to do this themselves does not in any shape or form make it the responsibility of every player that wishes to provide feedback. The player is always free to give his or her personal feedback, especially when it is requested by the Developers, as they have done with the creation of this thread.
It is my opinion that the shard drop rate is far too heavily skewed toward teaming, leading to an "unfun" situation for people that solo or play on smaller teams. This complaint (coming from several people it would seem, based on the various threads I've read on the subject) should then prompt the Devs to do some data mining, which I imagine they have tools for that would make it far easier for them than the player. If that data mining does not support the complaints, so be it.
We can each say "I disagree with you" but ultimately it's not our responsibility to figure out who's right. Neither of us has to prove anything to the other or even the Devs. All we should have to do is give our feedback.
The more you can quantify that experience, the more useful your feedback is.
It's the difference between "Fix A it's broken!" and "I believe A is broken because it should be doing X and instead it's doing Y." Both are technically "feedback", but only one is useful.
I'm not saying you need to do thousands of "test runs", but you can at least make sure that you're looking in the right place and then keep a rough idea of what you do (How many of what rank of foes have you fought? At what level? How many shards have you found? OK, Zero shards... but after 5 level 45 Minions or ~5000 level 50 Bosses? This is not hard stuff...)
"I believe that oranges are far too rare. We should increase the drop rate of oranges. All you people who say how many oranges you've found must be wrong because I haven't ever seen any of them and I've gone around shaking a lot of trees lately and there are a lot of other people I know who shake trees and they haven't found any oranges either... what do you mean 'are they orange trees'? I shouldn't have to datamine anything..."
[edit: Please note that I'm not saying the drop rate for shards is sufficiently enough when you're soloing. I don't think anyone (certainly, nobody in the last few pages) has suggested this. I might have received plenty of shard drops when soloing, but I still believe the rate of said drops is too low for the casual soloist... especially one who tends to have more fun at lower difficulty levels. However, I'm also able to back up my opinion because I can state that I've been doing the "right things" to get shards to drop, and I have a rough idea of how rare shards are because I've been keeping track of what I've been doing] -
Quote:Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Then form a self-help SG called the Silent Legion, and solo the Incarnate TFs with 7 othersQuote:Originally Posted by Maelwys
We are the introverts.
We are silent,
and we are LEGION.
Q.E.D.Quote:Originally Posted by Maelwys
GG, I'm honestly not surprised that you haven't "grokked" this, since you would appear to be a classic extrovert. Your "calling card" tends to be to make a lot of short, disconnected posts to as many people as possible, in as many threads as possible. The aim of this would seem to be to provoke responses from as many people as possible - which is stereotypical extroverted, attention-seeking behaviour.
Don't get me wrong, it certainly isn't against forum rules to be "chatty", and I'm sure some of what you post is helpful/humourous... but the pure scope of how regularly you make all these seemingly disconnected and random posts likely annoys a great many more-introverted people on principle.
Now I'm (reasonably) sure that you don't intend to be seen as a poster of random babble permeated only with winkies, and instead just want to be communicated with a lot because that's how you get your "feel good" and recharge... but please try to understand that everybody else does not recharge in the same manner.
I can appreciate that grasping what Introversion is might be very difficult for you - because it's such an alien concept to your way of thinking, or at least compared to your displayed behaviour on these boards. But Introverts are people too... k?
(Played for, and got...)
-
Quote:PvP zones are PvP zones... risk versus reward and all that.Originally Posted by Magnus_Korr
It's fun to kill the farmers, especially the ones that do it on the high ledges feeling safe. Knocking the afk people off of the building and then parking a heavy on them at the bottom is like stealing the farm.
If someone is farming PvP IOs and they're daft enough to get upset after going AFK and coming back to their toon and finding it dead, then they shouldn't have been farming "unattended" in the first place.
And this is the opinion of someone who farms PvP IOs quite regularly...
Not paying full attention whilst two of my toons go at it in a quiet corner of a PvP zone? Sure. I have the luxury of playing on a rather sparsely populated server... But if I'm not looking at the PC screen and someone kills my "farming" toon, I'm not gonna get bitter about it. I'm in a PvP zone. It's all fair, and since PvP is what I'm there doing anyway to get annoyed at being killed would be hypocritical. (And Frankly, that's what wakies, hospitals or self-rezzes are there for.... talk about "learntoplay"... sheesh...)
I look upon farming PvP IOs as a good means of generating cashflow because it's nice and easy and I can relax in front of a DVD or something whilst keeping half an eye on it. Any drops I get and aren't immediately looking for all get listed on the market at an asking price of 1 inf. Even the Procs. Since this means they'll automatically sell at whatever the current highest-asking price is... I'm generating income for myself, increasing PvP IO supply AND driving down the market prices. Such farming is therefore actually rather community-friendly, assuming that the farmer doesn't violate the game's T&C and isn't a "bad sport". -
PvP IO Drop rates are perfectly fine.
The "chance-per-kill" drop rate for Purples is much lower than for PvP IOs.
Purples are more common to find on the market simply because more people PvE than PvP.
PvP IOs only drop in PvP, Not PvE.
Get more people to participate in PvP, and the supply of PvP IOs will skyrocket.
Until then, the primary source of PvP IOs will be farmers.
From personal testing, the drop rate for PvP IOs has remained at about one in every 100 valid kills (with the sole exception being during the recent period where no PvP rewards were dropping at all) since they introduced PvP IOs.
The only change they made to PvP IO drops was amending it several issues ago so that "valid" kills for the drops conformed to the standard PvP one-kill-per-player-every-ten-minutes reputation counter, along with a 30-minute timer between drops to discourage large-scale hardcore SG farming sessions. Prior to that change any kill counted and there was widescale drop exploitation- you could have one toon for killing and a second toon loaded with wakies (popping said wakies one after the other --> exit zone to reload on wakies --> rinse and repeat) for practically guaranteed drops. -
Quote:There's a big difference in shard drop rates depending on whether you're fighting Minions, LTs or Bosses.Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
This is exactly my issue. Currently it's possible to fill the Alpha slot in one evening of play (ok, maybe two) if you run TF's. I would expect soloing to be slower, but come ON! The solo shard drop rate is not just slower, it's so slow it seems designed to make you give up on soloing for shards altogether and just join the TF's. This is a very, very bad design choice in my opinion. The last thing you want to do is frustrate your customers and goad them into doing something they flat do not want to do. In the end all that will accomplish is a whole lot of resentment.Quote:Originally Posted by Pebblebrook
That's the biggest problem i'm having with the incarnate system. I understand "slower" acquisition of shards. But there's "slow" and then there's "so slow it makes a snail's pace seem like lightspeed" kind of slow. The latter only serves to discourage from further participating in incarnates which i'm at now since i'm contemplating starting another praetorian instead of working on my incarnate.
I'm sure that's just the RNG, but when people are reporting getting like 10 shards or so in a single tf that's maybe averaging 1 hour of play...then there's me with 3 shard drops after a month and a half, then that is an issue that needs to be addressed.
From here
"Assumed Drop rates" for Shards, based on player testing:
Minion = 1 in 1000
Lieutenant = 1 in 150
Boss = 1 in 50
And I'll throw in that my observed drop rate on PvP kills (rep-worthy kills at level 50, so in either the Arena or RV) is roughly 1 in 30 from a sample of ~2000 kills.
I suspect that the above rate is skewed so much mainly to discourage large-scale "farming" of weaker mobs by AoE-damage specced toons as the primary means of getting shards. "Solo" boss-killing characters have a comparatively good chance to get a drop.
If you run level 50 content which mostly has you either fighting minions or "speeding" to an objective instead of defeating everything in a mission, then you're going to rarely if ever get a shard to drop.
The drop rate for all players is independent - if you kill 200 critters solo then you have the same chance to get a drop as if your team had killed 200 critters. But since generally teams can kill far far more critters in the same amount of time, shards will tend to drop far faster on teams. And fighting in a team also generally means you'll be fighting more bosses.
I've a lot of characters that generally solo, and they've all had shards drop at roughly the above rate. I've gotten at least four level 50s to uncommon boosts purely by soloing. -
Quote:Boy, is it ever...Originally Posted by Golden Girl
It's the same as yesterday, and probably the same tomorrow tooQuote:Originally Posted by McCharraigin
Golden Girl...what is with you today?
We are the introverts.Quote:If they weren't, there'd be more of them hereQuote:Tiny minorities????
First, if they're silent then there's no need to keep them silentQuote:Actually, I think you are afraid that the soloing subscribers of this game just might be the silent majority, and are thus actively trying to keep us silent in this thread.
And second, how do you keep someone silent on a thread when the entire way a thread works is for people to give their opinions?
We are silent,
and we are LEGION.
Truth be told; As Eiko said, the point of introversion is not that you're anti-social, but instead is that you don't find socialising to be restful.
The amount of social contact an introvert feels "comfortable" with will vary from person to person, and their willingness to participate in any social activity which they find "draining" will usually depend greatly on how rested they happen to feel at the time. An Introvert might enjoy social contact, but eventually they will feel drained and yearn to go off on their own to 'recharge their batteries'.
It's the same idea as an extrovert being required to spend prolonged periods of time on their own, cut off from all social contact. Such an extrovert might enjoy being on their own (for reading, walks, etc) but eventually they will feel drained and yearn to get back to chatting or socialising so that they can recharge their batteries.
--------------------
Notice there is a big difference between not ENJOYING socialising, and not finding it restful.
Personally, I find I can withstand prolonged contact in RL with about 3-4 people for days at a time without it noticeably draining my batteries, particularly if they're good friends. I enjoy socialising, and I'll happilly organise a few events and suchlike for people that I know well. However large crowds of people, or hanging around strangers can drain me very quickly. I can't go to two parties in a row in the evenings (weddings/birthdays/gigs/whatever) without needing a day or two of "downtime" to recover.
When online, I find that soloing Ouroboros Arcs or TFs is a great way for me to recharge and teamed gameplay (even in larger 8-man groups) hardly drains me at all, but I very, very rarely lead a PUG team because of the greater level of chattiness required. Not because I lack the ability or the experience to lead a team, but because I find the organisation aspect of building a team full of mostly-strangers draining and not as much fun as just periodically chipping in with random banter or situational advice in team chat.
Introverts at parties tend to be quite easy to spot. They're not just the ones on their own leaning against the wall - they're also the ones who "clique" into groups of about 2-5 people and don't mingle. That way they cut down the amount of people they have to interact with. For many, this behaviour is not even a concious thing, they're just more comfortable with one or two "mates" than with being the centre of attention.
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GG, I'm honestly not surprised that you haven't "grokked" this, since you would appear to be a classic extrovert. Your "calling card" tends to be to make a lot of short, disconnected posts to as many people as possible, in as many threads as possible. The aim of this would seem to be to provoke responses from as many people as possible - which is stereotypical extroverted, attention-seeking behaviour.
Don't get me wrong, it certainly isn't against forum rules to be "chatty", and I'm sure some of what you post is helpful/humourous... but the pure scope of how regularly you make all these seemingly disconnected and random posts likely annoys a great many more-introverted people on principle.
Now I'm (reasonably) sure that you don't intend to be seen as a poster of random babble permeated only with winkies, and instead just want to be communicated with a lot because that's how you get your "feel good" and recharge... but please try to understand that everybody else does not recharge in the same manner.
I can appreciate that grasping what Introversion is might be very difficult for you - because it's such an alien concept to your way of thinking, or at least compared to your displayed behaviour on these boards. But Introverts are people too... k?