Are you familiar with attack chains? The highest possible DPS chain DM can do is Smite >> Midnight Grasp >> Smite >> Siphon Life. This requires a lot of recharge to perform and is not cheap to do that on a DM/SD Scrapper. Also, the fact that you're using Smite twice in a chain makes it the best place to put a proc. Its low base damage makes a damage enhancement less valuable than a proc in most cases.
To figure out how fast an attack needs to recharge, add up the shortest total activation times for the other attacks performed between your desired attack. Smite would need to recharge as fast as you can activate Siphon Life, not Midnight Grasp. MG needs to recharge as fast as you can activate the other three attacks. Mids' calculates and displays Arcanatime now if you set it in the options.
Please refer to my first post in re: Midnight Grasp.
Too broad of a question to answer accurately without being able to see the whole build, but I'm going to make the following assumptions :
1/ Your endurance is fine, or at least fine enough to let you solo AVs.
With Shadow Punch low endurance cost it's doubtful switching end for a proc would suddenly break your end usage, unless you were barely sustainable and already ran low on end by the time fights ended.
2/ The recharge is irrelevant for your usage - as you're saying you use it to fill gaps here and there, and it has a 3s base recharge, I suppose it's always up when you need it and actually even more than you need it.
Assuming that, we can rule out recharge as a problem as well.
3/ You're ED capped in damage.
A normal proc in Brute Shadow Punch is roughly worth 43% damage enhancement not affected by ED, and a purple proc is roughly worth 100% damage enhancement not affected by ED, so for the purpose of ST DPS over long durations, it gets better to slot a proc at around the 80% damage enhancement mark.
Most likely you could probably swap whatever that Mako is for a proc and come out on top. Note that the increase in DPS won't be necessarily big, i.e. if you use Shadow Punch every 10 seconds you'd get an increase of ~1.5 DPS with a normal proc (20% chance to do 74 damage more or less averages at 15 damage per use). On the other hand if you use SP every 3 seconds and stick a purple proc in it you'd see an increase of ~11.7 DPS.
-
That was to answer your question, but you might be better off thinking about your attack chain before caring about procs. Concept build no MG no Hasten, fair enough ; if anything that makes it all the more important to optimize what it is you've got. I suppose you've got Smite, Gloom and Siphon Life, and as you mention you only use Shadow Punch to fill gaps every now and then I'm worried you also use Shadow Maul as part of your regular ST attack chain (which isn't too efficient).
I hit the quota on wild guesses for tonight though, so I'll leave it at that.
Quote:
Some of those assumptions are correct; I've not even got Shadow Maul in the build, though, so no worries there. So far I've soloed (as AVs):|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
That was to answer your question, but you might be better off thinking about your attack chain before caring about procs. Concept build no MG no Hasten, fair enough ; if anything that makes it all the more important to optimize what it is you've got. I suppose you've got Smite, Gloom and Siphon Life, and as you mention you only use Shadow Punch to fill gaps every now and then I'm worried you also use Shadow Maul as part of your regular ST attack chain (which isn't too efficient).
I hit the quota on wild guesses for tonight though, so I'll leave it at that. |
*Infernal (used some small oranges)
*Neuron (used some small blues; no AAO/Soul Drain fodder)
*Battle Maiden, Black Swan (no Insps, no Temps)
*Chimera, Bobcat (no Insps, no Temps, no AAO/Soul Drain fodder)
The only one I've encountered who I had to dial down was Nightstar. I should probably spin this thread out into another, kind of an "optimize my non-optimal build" kind of thing. Should they ever give us a NoFX option for Hasten and/or an alternate, non-hentai animation for Midnight Grasp, I'll probably swap out for those two. Until then, I'm pretty set on the powers I've chosen; I'd just like to max out my character's effectiveness with them.
EDIT: I'm actually looking at maybe slotting Shadow Punch with just 2 HamiOs (the Acc/Dam, name escapes me), a straight Damage IO, and a Proc, and using the two spare slots for OwtS, to beef up my Resists for the 33% of the time it's up. Plus I've got the Cardiac 2nd tier, so even more Resists, and less End worries.
I've got Shadow Punch slotted like this on my SD/DM Tank. I use it mostly to keep up the -Res and fill in gaps between MG/Gloom/SL.
Mako's: Acc/Dam
Mako's: Acc/Dam/End/Rech
Mako's: Proc
Crushing Impact: Acc/Dam/End
Perfect Zinger: Proc
Cloud Senses: Proc
It's nice to get two or three of them proccing at once. This kind of slotting also got me what I wanted: 60% Acc Enhancement, a +HP bonus (3k+ HP is very nice) and also makes it worthy as an attack. As Nihilii said, procs will be better than Damage Enhancements very soon in low damage attacks like SP.
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
Quote:
Not having Midnight Grasp in your build and not wanting to use it at all are two different things. Your first post wasn't clear to me on which category you fell in. Scrappers frequently strive for the best DPS they can obtain, so I figured you were working with an old or unoptimized build and were looking to respec to improve DPS.|
Originally Posted by StormDevil
Please refer to my first post in re: Midnight Grasp.
|
Your best bet would be to figure out an attack chain for yourself. Without seeing the build, we won't know what attacks you have and what kind of global recharge you have. Mids' has a powerset comparison tool that you can use to look at the base damage per activation times of all of your attacks. By looking at that, you can figure out which attacks to activate first in your chain and then try to figure out how to use your highest DPS attacks as often as possible.
Quote:
The top chain in DM for Brutes is [Gloom - Smite - MG - SL] at 47.4 DPA |
Originally Posted by StormDevil
Please refer to my first post in re: Midnight Grasp.
|
The second best chain is [Smite - MG - Smite - SL] at 45.61 DPA
The DPA values are for unslotted attacks at level 50, with no fury or other damage buffs.
Without MG; your best attack chain is going to be [Gloom - Smite - Siphon Life - Shadow Punch] at 43.2 DPA. You'll need 276% recharge in Gloom and 281% in Siphon Life (and 134% in Smite and 65% in Shadow Punch). You can get about 195% of this with base recharge + attack slotting. The remaining 86% Global Recharge is attainable without using Hasten, but it'll be very expensive. If you go for this chain, you can spare a slot for Damage Procs in both Smite and Shadow Punch.
The second-best chain without MG is [Gloom - Shadow Punch - Smite - Siphon Life - ShadowPunch - Smite] for 42.34 DPA. This requires 253% Recharge in Smite (and 182% in Gloom, 173% in SL and 120% in Shadow Punch) so about 64% from Global Recharge. If you go for this chain, putting procs into ShadowPunch (especially the Hecatomb Purple Proc) will raise your DPA a fair bit... but you'll likely not be able to afford giving up a slot in Smite for a Proc.
Gloom Shadow Punch Smite Siphon Life Smite will do more damage for about the same recharge.
Quote:
True - (Doh. When I removed MG it broke the calculation in my attack chain planner for single instance repeaters...) |
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Gloom Shadow Punch Smite Siphon Life Smite will do more damage for about the same recharge.
|
It seems the above would require 285% Recharge in Smite, 217% in Gloom, 211% in SL and 52% in Shadow Punch. For a total of 43.73 DPA, at the expense of a bit more recharge.
All three non-MG chains are fairly close actually, region of 5-6 DPS difference when slotted plus Fury. Enhancements and Buffs are really going to be the deciding factor. Using Shadow Punch twice in the one chain loaded up with Procs might even tip the balance in favour of the chain with the least raw DPS. Really depends on slotting.
Quote:
That much recharge isn't possible without Hasten. If I understand the OP correctly, they do not want to use MG or Hasten in their builds. This leaves the potential recharge of each power at a maximum of about 175% total bonus. More would be possible, but very expensive.
|
Originally Posted by MaelwysAlts
True - (Doh. When I removed MG it broke the calculation in my attack chain planner for single instance repeaters...)
It seems the above would require 285% Recharge in Smite, 217% in Gloom, 211% in SL and 52% in Shadow Punch. For a total of 43.73 DPA, at the expense of a bit more recharge. All three non-MG chains are fairly close actually, region of 5-6 DPS difference when slotted plus Fury. Enhancements and Buffs are really going to be the deciding factor. Using Shadow Punch twice in the one chain loaded up with Procs might even tip the balance in favour of the chain with the least raw DPS. Really depends on slotting. |
Base - 100%
Enhancements - 90%
Set Bonuses - 95%
No Hasten needed. :P
Quote:
I thought Maelwys was referring to recharge bonus, not recharge bonus + base.
|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Base - 100%
Enhancements - 90% Set Bonuses - 95% No Hasten needed. :P |
This is pretty simple. Shadow Punch does 35.03 points of damage at level 50. Most damage Procs add 14.4 points of damage on average (72*0.2), while purple damage procs add 35.3 points of damage (107*0.33).
That means that a normal damage proc effectively equals 41% enhanced damage for a Brute while a purple damage proc equals 100% enhanced damage. If you want superior DPA on a skill, you can sacrifice some enhanced damage for a damage proc-- something that can be particularly effective with the musculature alpha slot
The best possible DPA slotting is this, using 52+ HOs:
Level 1: Shadow Punch -- HO:Nucle(1), HO:Nucle(3), Hectmb-Dam%(3), Mako-Dam%(5), GS-%Dam(5), Zinger-Dam%(7)
Frankenslotting on the cheap like this would also yield superior DPA compared to your current slotting:
Level 1: Shadow Punch -- Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Mako-Dam%(3), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(3), HO:Nucle(5), Zinger-Dam%(5), Cloud-%Dam
Brutes have a little more leeway than Scrappers when slotting procs because of their lower AT damage modifier. This means that damage procs will represent a higher percentage of effective enhanced damage.
Quote:
Nope. Total Recharge, including base 100%.
|
Originally Posted by Syntax42
I thought Maelwys was referring to recharge bonus, not recharge bonus + base.
|
Quote:
I was under the impression that Damage Procs were not affected by Damage Buffs, such as Fury or AAO... which means that for the typical steamrolling Brute in-game that has ~200% Damage buff from Fury, Procs aren't all that great. They will help when building fury, certainly, or on fast activating-but-low-damage attacks which feature more than once in an attack chain.|
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
Brutes have a little more leeway than Scrappers when slotting procs because of their lower AT damage modifier. This means that damage procs will represent a higher percentage of effective enhanced damage.
|
Out of all the melee ATs, Tankers get the best use out of damage procs (and Patron Pets) due to their low base damage modifier + Bruising's guaranteed -20% Resistance debuff.
Quote:
You are right that damage buffs do not affect procs, but wrong in thinking that damage procs aren't all that great on a Brute because of Fury dilution. |
Originally Posted by Maelwys
I was under the impression that Damage Procs were not affected by Damage Buffs, such as Fury or AAO... which means that for the typical steamrolling Brute in-game that has ~200% Damage buff from Fury, Procs aren't all that great.
|
A damage proc can be treated as a substitute for enhanced damage that ignores ED and the damage cap. Because of the Brute's low AT damage modifier-- 5% lower than the Tanks-- a damage proc will represent a higher value of % enhanced damage when compared to the Scrapper.
Mako's Bite % chance for lethal represents 41% enhanced damage on a Brute's Shadow Punch, but just 25% enhanced damage on a Scrapper's Shadow Punch. (14.4/35.03 versus 14.4/57.8) Fury is designed to manipulate the Brute's low AT damage modifier, and thus dilutes actual enhanced damage, but not Procs which merely emulate enhanced damage over time. Because of this, 3 and 4 proc slotting on a Brute is often more viable than on a Scrapper.
Quote:
Sorry for the threadjack, but I have a related question!|
Originally Posted by Syntax42
Are you familiar with attack chains? The highest possible DPS chain DM can do is Smite >> Midnight Grasp >> Smite >> Siphon Life. This requires a lot of recharge to perform and is not cheap to do that on a DM/SD Scrapper.
|
So... it is possible for me to do that attack chain gapless with 60% global Recharge, Hasten, and the Uncommon Alpha boost. Smite is at 74% Recharge, Siphon Life at 41%, and Midnight Grasp at 80%. That Alpha boost helps out a lot, so I am wondering if for Issue 19.5 with the Rare and Very Rare boosts, will we be able to do a better DPS chain? Perhaps Siphon Life > Midnight Grasp ad nauseum?
Playstation 3 - XBox 360 - Wii - PSP
Remember kids, crack is whack!
Samuel_Tow: Your avatar is... I think I like it
AFAIK there's no step up from Smite MG Smite SL because Smite is your second highest DPA attack.
You need about 335% recharge (235% additional recharge) in MG to make the chain work. You have, roughly (100% base + 70% hasten + 60% global + 80% from enhancements + ~16% from the uncommon affected by ED + ~11% from the uncommon not affected by ED = ) 337%, so it looks like you should be able to run it while Hasten is up.
Quote:
Midnight Grasp is the long pole with a requirement of 234% recharge, so the alpha boost needs to net you 24%. The Very Rare will have you covered.
|
Originally Posted by bAss_ackwards
Sorry for the threadjack, but I have a related question!
So... it is possible for me to do that attack chain gapless with 60% global Recharge, Hasten, and the Uncommon Alpha boost. Smite is at 74% Recharge, Siphon Life at 41%, and Midnight Grasp at 80%. That Alpha boost helps out a lot, so I am wondering if for Issue 19.5 with the Rare and Very Rare boosts, will we be able to do a better DPS chain? Perhaps Siphon Life > Midnight Grasp ad nauseum? |
Quote:
That would be some crazy regen on that.... |
Originally Posted by bAss_ackwards
Perhaps Siphon Life > Midnight Grasp ad nauseum?
|
Quote:
Yeah, no kidding. |
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
That would be some crazy regen on that....
|
If I wanted to have a survivability chain, I could probably just use Siphon Life over and over again with the Very Rare.
Playstation 3 - XBox 360 - Wii - PSP
Remember kids, crack is whack!
Samuel_Tow: Your avatar is... I think I like it
Planning for my Dark Melee/Super Reflexes, I tried to figure out at least passable chains that spammed Siphon Life at around 300% recharge, figuring I'd be taking advantage of the Spiritual alpha. These are what I came up with:
57.44 DPS: Smite -> Boxing -> Siphon Life (+299%)The Boxing chains do a little less damage and benefit less from further team recharge boosts, but DO save an attack, which could be a concern. The chains with Midnight Grasp obviously do noticeably better, but that's yet another attack and some additional complication. I've always been a fan of attack chain minimalism, so it's a hard decision for me.
58.76 DPS: Smite -> Shadow Punch -> 0.25 gap -> Siphon Life (+301%)
62.37 DPS: Midnight Grasp -> 0.25 gap -> Siphon Life (+301%) -> Smite -> Boxing -> Siphon Life (+299%)
63.04 DPS: Midnight Grasp -> 0.25 gap -> Siphon Life (+301%) -> Smite -> Shadow Punch -> 0.25 gap -> Siphon Life (+301%)
Of course a better answer the vast majority of the time is to just use the top chain and spam Siphon Life situationally, allowing you to do drastically better DPS:
71.81 DPS: Smite -> Midnight Grasp -> Smite -> Siphon LifeBut I think there's something to be said for continually topping off your hit points. I might do one of these chains eventually just to see what it's like. I suspect I'd miss being able to do damage, though.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Quote:
I wasn't so sure about the damage percentage tradeoff. |
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
Fury is designed to manipulate the Brute's low AT damage modifier, and thus dilutes actual enhanced damage, but not Procs which merely emulate enhanced damage over time. Because of this, 3 and 4 proc slotting on a Brute is often more viable than on a Scrapper.
|
I thought the sheer amount of Damage Buffs attainable from Fury would dilute the contribution from Procs to such a degree that Scrappers would be better off...
Fortunately, your post's claims got me interested enough after reading it to run a full power-by-power comparison, for a Brute and a Scrapper at "Base" (100%) damage and "Slotted up and attacking a foe at full tilt" (350% Brute, 214.5% Scrapper):
Code:
For a Brute: (350% Damage = 100% Base + 250% From Slotting+Fury@70%+AAO) Gloom - 73.4 Base Damage, 256.9 Damage @350% - DPA = 194.6 MG - 115.1 Base Damage, 402.9 Damage @350% - DPA = 179.5 Smite - 55.1 Base Damage, 192.9 Damage @350% - DPA = 162.3 SL - 81.7 Base Damage, 286.0 Damage @350% - DPA = 135.4 SP - 35.0 Base Damage, 122.5 Damage @350% - DPA = 116.0 % of an attack's Damage represented by a Normal Damage Proc (71.75 Dam * 20%): Gloom - 19.6% (Base) 5.6% (@350%) MG - 12.5% (Base) 3.6% (@350%) Smite - 26.0% (Base) 7.4% (@350%) SL - 17.6% (Base) 5.0% (@350%) SP - 41.0% (Base) 11.7% (@350%) % of an attack's Damage represented by a Purple Damage Proc (107.09 Dam * 33%): Gloom - 48.6% (Base) 13.9% (@350%) MG - 31.0% (Base) 8.8% (@350%) Smite - 64.8% (Base) 18.5% (@350%) SL - 43.7% (Base) 12.5% (@350%) SP - 102.0% (Base) 29.1% (@350%) --------------------------------------------------------------------- For a Scrapper: (214.5% Damage = 100% Base + 114.5% From Slotting+AAO) Damage from Crits is averaged in. MG - 189.9 Base Damage, 407.0 Damage @214.5% - DPA = 181.3 Smite - 90.8 Base Damage, 194.7 Damage @214.5% - DPA = 163.8 SL - 134.9 Base Damage, 289.0 Damage @214.5% - DPA = 136.8 SP - 57.8 Base Damage, 123.9 Damage @214.5% - DPA = 117.3 % of an attack's Damage represented by a Normal Damage Proc (71.75 Dam * 20%): MG - 7.6% (Base) 3.5% (@214.5%) Smite - 15.8% (Base) 7.4% (@214.5%) SL - 10.6% (Base) 5.0% (@214.5%) SP - 24.8% (Base) 11.6% (@214.5%) % of an attack's Damage represented by a Purple Damage Proc (107.09 Dam * 33%): MG - 18.8% (Base) 8.8% (@214.5%) Smite - 39.3% (Base) 18.3% (@214.5%) SL - 26.5% (Base) 12.4% (@214.5%) SP - 61.8% (Base) 28.8% (@214.5%)
Leaving aside Gloom (as Scrappers can't get it) the difference is negligible.
It also shows that the Scrapper very slightly edges out the Brute in terms of attack damage numbers when slotted up and attacking a foe at "full tilt". And that Gloom is by far the best DPA attack a Brute can grab. Neither of which should be too surprising.
You can multiply the "Base" values to attain results at other levels of Fury. I used 70% as an attainable baseline, but running at lower levels of Fury would obviously favour Procs.
Note that AAO wasn't saturated, I assumed only one foe in range (Partially for the "fighting one tough foe" standard and partially so that the level of Damage Buff granted would be within the range of set bonuses for other secondaries). Saturating AAO would add a large Damage Buff to both ATs and tip the Proc % balance in favour of Brutes.
Enhancement-for-Enhancement then, adding a Proc will make roughly the same amount of impact on damage output for both a Brute and a Scrapper. But since losing a small amount of Damage enhancement from slotting would make little difference to a Fury-buffed Brute, you're correct in saying that if you're going to trade some Damage Enhancement for more Procs, do it on a Brute.
So I've had some success soloing AVs with my DM/SD/Soul (a Brute, sure, but the Scrapper forum has always been kind to me in regard to build/slotting help), but I'd like to try to bump up the DPS a bit. I don't use Midnight Grasp or Hasten, so I know I won't be getting the "best" DPS. As it stands, I use Shadow Punch to fill a gap here or there, and right now it's just slotted with 5 CIs and a Mako. I was wondering if it'd be more worthwhile to slot it with Damage Procs, rather than the straight set IOs. Any thoughts?