Local_Man

That's what happens when I don't check IMDB. I suppose you could say that Jack Lemmon was in a fantasy simply because he shared screen time with Marilyn Monroe . . .

Sometime in the past, there was a discussion about how Choking Cloud works, and questions were being thrown around about the effect of Accuracy and buffs on the power. Castle came in the thread and stated that the percentages (the 50% and 80%) were built into the power and could not be enhanced; only the initial hit roll could be affected with global accuracy.

I suppose that could be wrong, but Castle generally knew what he was talking about.

I'm not sure the combat logs are reporting the correct information, but I haven't spent time testing. With any "chance for" system, it will take a LOT of testing to determine statistically whether the numbers are correct, and you also have to worry whether the system is actually reporting the data you need to get a statistically significant sample with a small enough variation.

Flashfreeze has its uses -- as a ranged AoE, it can be effective to stop a new group coming in, or to thin out a group (It sleeps minions and lieutenants, but will let the bosses come through), or if you have a team who doesn't act like a group of Pirranha (like most teams do) and let the sleeping guys sleep for a second while players with siphon-type buffs (like Kinetics) buff up. It is far more useful solo than on most teams. It is also the most frequently skipped power in Ice Control.

High Accuracy only goes so far in Choking Cloud. Yes, it does check for a ToHit first. It starts at the base 75% and is supposed to not take Accuracy . . . but we know you can fit in Accuracy with sets, Hami-Os and global accuracy. Plus Defense Debuffs such as the one in RI have the effect of adding accuracy. But still, the 95% cap is in effect, so anything over the 95% cap is wasted. I find that on most of my higher builds, I have plenty of global accuracy and don't really need to slot Choking Cloud for more accuracy.

Once the power hits, then it does two more random number checks. There is a 50% chance of a Mag 2 hold, and an 80% chance of a Mag 1 hold, and the two holds will stack. As a result, you get:
10% chance of 0 Mag
40% chance of 1 Mag (which does nothing on its own, but will stack with other holds)
10% chance of 2 Mag (which hold Minions only, but will stack with other holds)
40% chance of 3 Mag (Minions and Lieutenants, and needs another hold for bosses)

For each pulse, minions will be held 50% of the time that the power hits, and Lieutenants will be held 40% of the time. At level 50, the hold has a base duration of 7.45 seconds and pulses every 5 seconds. If you fully slot Choking Cloud for Hold Duration (95%), that hold will last for about 14.5 second -- just shy of 3 subsequent pulses. Set bonuses that add hold duration can get it past 15 seconds.

One thing I have not yet tested is whether procs in Choking Cloud have a chance to fire off on every pulse, or if they have a chance to fire when the power is cast and every 10 seconds afterwards. I suspect that the latter is true, since procs in toggles generally activate every 10 seconds.

<Fixed because I was being dumb>
Because of the odd way that Choking Cloud stacks mag, the Lockdown proc seems to work well. On the 50% of minions not held, the Lockdown proc adds a 15% chance to hold them. Of the 60% of Lieutenants not held, the Lockdown proc adds a 13.5% chance to hold them. Same with 50% of bosses. In effect, it adds a 7.5% chance to hold more minions, slightly over 8% chance to hold more lieutenants, and an 7.5% chance to hold bosses (which Choking Cloud cannot do on its own).

You see the Tesla Cage animation pop up a lot. However, many of those are on foes who would have been held by Choking Cloud anyway. Still, I think that the proc is quite effective in Choking Cloud. I am not completely sure if the proc has a chance to fire every pulse (5 seconds) or every other pulse (10 seconds). I really should test that.

CMA, you can correct me if I get some details wrong, . . .

CMA and I and a few other regular teammates started up a TF, and we had two more slots to fill. All of us regulars were on Ventrilo together, which the two others did not know. The TF filled up.

One guy, let's call him MISTER, who was one of the PUG invites started sending tells to our leader saying that his buddy had just logged on. MISTER wanted the leader to kick one of the others so his friend could join. There was an entire series of tells where MISTER was explaining to the leader that various team members wouldn't be very good in not overly nice terms. What MISTER didn't know is that the leader was telling the rest of us over Ventrilo what was happening in the tells . . . and asking us what he should do. One of our buddies said, "Give me me the star!" . . .

and as soon as he got the star, he said, "I'll kick someone!" and he promptly kicked MISTER.

MISTER had a few choice words at that point, but the rest of us were laughing too hard to pay attention.

I can't help you there. I haven't tried Soul Drain yet. Indom Will is key to preventing Mez from turning off Hot Feet and Choking Cloud, which is why I have it. You might be able to get by without it in a high defense build.

Yes, it has a cool down to prevent it from stacking. Plus, you already have so much recharge in your build that a little more will have minimal benefits -- I would think the damage proc would do more good.

The Soulbound Chance for Build Up has a chance to hit every time a pet attacks . . . which makes it wonderful especially in Fire Imps and Phantom Army. It has three times the number of chances to hit.

The Gaussian's proc will have a chance to go off when you activate Tactics and every 10 seconds while the toggle is active . . . so most of the time it goes off, you won't be in battle. Personally, I wouldn't use a slot for it unless I'm building the entire Gaussian set for the nice Defense bonus.

I can't see your build, so I can't address your other questions.

I like to set the tell as a macro . . . which makes it easier.

/macro MTF t $target, Forming a Manticore Task Force. My plan is to run through it quickly, depending upon team. You must be at least level 30 and will exemplar higher level characters to level 35. Are you interested?

Then I set up a couple more for responses I get:

/macro Thanks t $target, Thanks for responding. Sorry you can't make it.

/macro Swtch t $target, Great! I'll hold a spot for you while you change characters. Please send me a tell as soon as you have logged in on your new character for an invite.

That way, I can pick a name from the /Search window, click on the first macro to send the tell. I get a response from probably half the people, with several saying they can't right now. If I get a response, I can invite to the team or I can use the appropriate second macro.

I only bother using this procedure if the Global Channels and my Friends list don't work. But as a last resort, this system works well, and the Macros let me be a bit more polite . . . people remember that if I ever send requests to them again.

That's nice of you . . . frankly, a lot of the credit should go to the many people on the Controller forums who have contributed information over the years, and especially the folks at CoHTitan who maintain the Red Tomax and ParagonWiki sites. I just tried to compile a lot of their info.

Actually, I was thinking EndMod when I typed EndRdx . . . EndMod is what I intended.

As for the Lockdown proc . . . no, it only can go off if the power hits. That's the same for all procs that affect the target. If Char hits a foe who is a Minion or Lieutenant, then that foe is held whether or not the proc hits . . . but you may see the Tesla Cage that shows that the proc hit, even though the foe would have been held anyways. The Lockdown proc is great in Choking Cloud, Poison Gas Trap and a few other places that have a need for the extra two mag of hold. But in a single target hold that also does damage? That slot will be far more productive slotted for damage, because the proc will only have the chance to have an effect against a boss who was not held by the "overpower."

I understand how folks slot assuming that Fulcrum Shift will be on all the time, but that's not always true . . . sometimes you need to wait and save it for the next group. And Fulcrum Shift becomes a lot less effective when you are up against a single tough foe, like an AV. And sometimes it misses.

No, the Perf Shifter proc does not give endurance to teammates . . . and same with the Miracle proc. It only affects you.

If you are really looking for Recharge, then you may want to put some Recharge into Siphon Speed . . . it can be stacked, and that will be far more effective than a 5% recharge buff.

Sure, a knockup power has some control benefit, but "decent damage?" It does less damage than Crush, less damage than GD, or Blind or even Spectral Wounds AFTER the healback. I still think it's damage should be the same as Mind's Levitate.

I agree that there are some good strategic uses for Immob powers. And they can reduce the damage you take vs. Melee . . . but it also draws aggro and they can shoot at you. If you are hiding around a corner, then you aren't using your attack chain.

Admittedly, Crush (and Mez) lets you set up Containment on a boss. But I've been talking about taking down Minions and Lieutenants. If you are discussing bosses, then Illusion loses some of its burst damage to the heal-back.

Illusion doesn't really need to set up Containment on multiple foes since it doesn't really have AoE damage that can take advantage of multiple Containment (until the APP AoE attacks) . . . you use Blind-SW on one foe. If the foe is defeated, then you go with Blind-SW on the next. If the foe is not defeated, SW's quick recharge and burst damage will let you hit SW again to finish off the foe, saving Blind for the next guy. As I said before, when you are talking about an attack chain, then the only time that extra Containment attack is valuable for setting up Containment is when the Hold misses.

My comments on Deceive were in response to your statements about how Grav and Mind can spread around control powers and handle small groups more easily than Illusion. I disagree because Deceive makes it easy to remove all aggro from foes that you are not attacking. Even with the attack chain for Grav, as soon as you attack one in a group of 3, the other two will attack you. Yes, you can then hit #2 with Crush and #3 with Lift, but those guys still get shots at you.

And my point all along has been that (a) Illusion's burst damage from the Illusory damage makes it more likely to take out a minion in one application of Blind-SW, and (b) even if the foe still has a little bit of green left, the fast animation and recharge of SW lets you fire off SW a second time before you finish with your attack chain of GD-Crush-Lift/Propel or Dom-Mez-Lev. As a result, Illusion will defeat that minion faster even without a complete "attack chain." Thus, Air Sup is nice but not needed. Air Sup is a nice addition, but does not make a "massive" difference.

It is not an attack chain that matters . . . it is amount of damage over time. With Blind and two shots of SW in less time than others can complete a three-attack chain, Illusion doesn't need that attack chain for low level foes.

Yep, I said that and still stand by it. There is a difference between "attack chain" and "defeating a foe in a certain amount of time." I have said all along that there is a gap in Illusion's attack chain that can be filled with Air Sup or an APP blast. However, my point all along is that a minion can be taken down by Blind-SW-<short gap>-SW faster than GD-Crush-Propel/Lift or Dom-Mez-Lev.

The Attack Chain matters when battling a tougher opponent. It really doesn't matter against low level foes since they are defeated more quickly. Illusion's burst damage, fast animation and fast recharge matters more than an attack chain against low level foes because defeating them quickly lets you keep that extra damage.

The damage from Blind = Damage from GD or Dom, but Blind animates a bit faster. The base damage, not including Illusory damage, from Spectral Wounds = Base damage from Crush (over 5 ticks) or Mez -- but then SW has the extra Illusory damage and animates a faster. So by the time the third attack is completed, Illusion can get in another Spectral Wounds with another hit of Illusory damage . . . without another attack like Air Sup. And two applications of SW's Illusory Damage is more than the additional damage from one (very slow) application of Propel.

By the way, I appreciate the fact that we have had a good back-n-forth discussion and still kept civil and respectful!

Actually, you don't have the availability get your third power from the primary until level 4. And at level 4, Illusion can (and in my opinion, should) take Deceive.

Only Grav Dist protects you from attacks -- an Immobilized foe is still shooting at you. For Illusion, I use Deceive a lot to completely prevent any damage to me whatsoever.

And setting up Containment really isn't much of an issue . . . Blind sets Containment for SW, just like GD sets up Containment for Crush and Lift/Propel. It only becomes a problem when Blind misses . . . if GD misses, then Crush is there as a "back-up" to set Containment for Lift/Propel.

That's why Deceive is so valuable. It provides MORE mitigation than any Immob or knockup power, and for a lot longer than any single target hold, and can't be disturbed by any attack the way a Sleep can. And since it hits without drawing aggro, you can attack any group without taking any damage whatsoever if you just take the time to use Deceive first.

Nope, not at all. I was comparing the single target attack chain and suggesting that Illusion can take down a single foe as fast as Mind or Gravity, as long as it is a minion or lieutenant so it can be defeated before the heal back. I admit that Mind and Grav's attack chain will do better against a boss because a boss can usually outlast the 10 second needed for the heal-back.

Illusion has a safer way to handle small groups: Deceive. (Of course, Mind has the same power in Confuse.) You can entirely take two guys out of the fight before it starts, then take down the third with Blind-SW-SW. It is a little bit slower to Deceive foes before the fight begins, but far, far safer than relying upon an Immob, a knockup or even a hold that might miss. You don't have to worry about accuracy, as it has a 20% accuracy bonus and if you miss, you just re-cast.

The point I'm making is that while adding Air Sup can be nice, it is certainly not "necessary" or even "always recommended" since Air Sup requires moving into melee. The burst damage that Illusion gets from SW lets an Illusionist defeat low level foes often on one application of Blind-SW, even with TOs. If it takes one more application of SW, no problem because it recharges so quickly . . . faster than the attack chain from Mind or Gravity. If the Illusionist is at range, then the time spent to run into melee and use Air Sup will be longer than time needed for a second application of SW.

Adding Air Sup is a good choice for some builds or playstyles: especially Ill/Kin, because Kinetics is generally in melee anyway. But if the player prefers to stay at range, then Air Sup doesn't add much and some added Recharge in SW will be sufficient. I took Air Sup on my Ill/Kin and my second Ill/Rad, but did not on my first Ill/Rad, Ill/TA, Ill/Storm or Ill/Cold. But I always have taken Blind, SW and Deceive as my first three power choices -- these make the low levels easy and safe if I have the patience to use Deceive a lot. Illusion/Rad in particular gets AM early, and that added Recharge helps the Blind-SW- -SW attack work amazingly well.

In comparison, I think that Mind's Dom-Mez-Lev works very well but actually takes longer to take down a minion than Illusion even in low levels -- it upper levels, it is no comparison since Illusion can add an APP blast into the mix and has the contributions of Phantom Army and Phantasm. And Grav's GD-Crush-Lift/Propel takes longer, too.

A key thing about Spectral Wounds is not only that it has the Illusory Damage that give it an extra 64% damage over the base, but it also recharges in only 6 seconds. With a little bit of Recharge, that can easily get down to 4 or even almost 3 seconds. And it animates in just barely over 1 second. That means that by the time you finish a Dom-Mez-Lev chain, Illusion will be able to do a Blind-SW- -SW chain and do more damage than Mind's three attacks in the same amount of time. Yes, all three of Mind's attacks have a mez componant . . . but if the foe is held with Blind, does that really matter?

Air Superiority is a nice addition, but it certainly is not needed. Illusion does plenty of damage without Air Sup. I agree that it is a nice way to handle bosses . . . but I often Deceive them first so I never have to worry about taking them out fast. It is slower, but safer.

With some Recharge in higher levels, you can actually get in three SW attacks before the heal back. Especially with Containment, that adds up to a fair amount of damage that can be used to take down a minion or leiutenant quite quickly. Bosses last long enough to get the heal back from the first attacks, but with some Recharge you still are able to keep about 3 applications of SW's Illusory damage on the boss until he drops.

To the OP, sorry about the Threadjack.

I think it was your "Blind and Spectral Wounds aren't too good on their own" comment that bothered me. Very few people seem to recognize how the Illusory damage in Spectral Wounds allows Illusion to do a lot more burst damage that it would appear by looking at the base damage numbers. Illusion can take out foes in low levels faster than Gravity or Mind, even without that extra attack, because of that burst damage and the fast animations for Blind and SW. And in those upper levels, that attack chain is very fast -- combined with some good debuffs from the secondary, Illusion can take out foes pretty quickly.

Illusion, on its own, does have a gap in the "attack chain" that can sometimes be filled with a Vet Blast power. But Blind and SW are quick, and the burst damage from Spectral Wounds's Illusory Damage means that you can defeat minions and Lieutenants pretty quickly before the heal back. Yes, you can add Air Sup for a better "chain," and once you get up to APP levels, the single target blasts make a great Blind-SW-Blast-SW chain.


The point of my post was that Illusion, along with Gravity and Mind, are pretty good at taking down single targets even in low levels. Plant and Fire are more AoE damage focused, and Earth, Electric and Ice are somewhat lacking in damage in those early levels.