Yet another Ill/Rad build for review
Based on private feedback, I revised the above build to have much more endurance recovery, to remove PvP IOs and to pick up Ice Blast.
The ice pool so drives me bonkers because I want all five powers! At first, mine was like yours on my Plant/Storm, then everyone said, oh no, you've got to have Hibernate, especially if you want to do task forces! And like you, I really wanted the two AOEs, so I've about decided to drop the single target. It's a Sophie's Choice for sure with the Ice APP.
Your thoughts on Choking Cloud were an eye opener, I wish I had the slots for it on my Ill/Rad. Wouldn't the Lockdown 2 mag hold be extra good on it also? If you can find one slot to take from something else since you do have the space for it.
Take care,
Rich
For an Illusion/Radiation, the single target blast really adds a lot. Illusion is far more single-target focused than Plant/Storm, and that fast animating, fast recharging blast lets you have a nice attack chain of Blind-Spectral Wounds-Ice Blast-Spectral Wounds.
Personally, I tried Choking Cloud on my Ill/Rad and hated it . . . but that was long before IOs. Still, my playstyle with my Ill/Rad is to stay out of melee, let the PA and Phanty's decoy take the aggro, and take down single targets from range. I use Deceive a lot because it is such a good control power that draws no aggro. I am generally fond of saving my own tail first, and I don't play my Ill/Rad as an in-your-face aggressive type of character.
The good Doctor's build here is clearly different than my playstyle, with no Deceive, high defense and Choking Cloud -- but if it works for him, that's great. It is a pretty expensive build, however. I see quite a few choices that I would do differently for my playstyle, but I don't really see any significant problems (but I haven't looked it over in Mids).
On my Fire/Rad, I love Choking Cloud and it is a key part of my strategy. But still, I focus more on Control first before damage. I have 4 Unbreakable Constraint (including the proc), the Lockdown +2 Mag proc and a common EndRdx. The Lockdown proc is great in Choking Cloud if you are focused on control, but in his build, he is more focused on using Choking Cloud as a source of damage from the procs so I'm not sure it is needed.
I like Hibernate and have it on a bunch of my Controllers, but most of them are Controllers who do not have a self-heal like my Ill/Cold, Ill/Storm and Ice/Storm. With a high defense build AND a self-heal, it is easier to skip Hibernate.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Your thoughts on Choking Cloud were an eye opener, I wish I had the slots for it on my Ill/Rad. Wouldn't the Lockdown 2 mag hold be extra good on it also? If you can find one slot to take from something else since you do have the space for it
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The big thing with CC is stuns because it is an aggro magnet and a single stun/mez/disorient/sleep can have you faceplanting very quickly especially since CC gets turned off. This is one of the main reasons I went with a high defense build. With this build, you basically need to consume purples like candy...devote 3 or so columns for them and take them *proactively*. Indomidable Will really is the way to go for CC and convenience, however the rest of the Psionic pool seems pretty meh, so I have an extremely hard time putting it into my builds.
I think CC is particularly good for Illusionist because they have no fast recharging AoE containment inducing power unlike virtually every other controller set. However, Phantasm's knockback will tend to ruin the effect of CC (as well as many other things like knocking stuff out of Ice Storm, annoying melees, etc.). I absolutely hate Phantasm's knockback, so I only really bring him out for elite bosses and tougher mobs once leveled. If you like having Phantasm out all the time, then CC is probably not the power for you. However, between CC and Phantasm, I believe a proc slotted CC will definitely do much more damage than Phantasm over time vs groups and provide vastly better control/mitigation (although at the expense of being a constant and heavy endurance drain).
PS. I went and updated the build to put back in the 4th damage proc to CC.
I'm thinking about doing some more testing and writing a guide about Choking Cloud because there is a lot of misinformation about it going around the boards. With RI, tactics and the +6 to-hit IO, CC is nearly maxed for hold on the first tick and maxed on the second (I haven't done exhaustive testing yet though, so don't quote me on that -- it is pretty darn high though). The chance to hold IO will have minimal benefit (maybe a percent or so extra chance of holding lieuts on the first tick at best). If I had an extra slot to put back into it I would definitely put back the PvP damage proc (which makes it a good hold power and an even better damage AoE power).
The big thing with CC is stuns because it is an aggro magnet and a single stun/mez/disorient/sleep can have you faceplanting very quickly especially since RI/Tactics get suppressed and CC gets turned off. This is one of the main reasons I went with a high defense build. With this build, you basically need to consume purples like candy...devote 3 or so columns for them and take them *proactively*. Indomidable Will really is the way to go for CC and convenience, however the rest of the Psionic pool seems pretty meh, so I have an extremely hard time putting it into my builds. I think CC is particularly good for Illusionist because they have no fast recharging AoE containment inducing power unlike virtually every other controller set. However, Phantasm's knockback will tend to ruin the effect of CC (as well as many other things like knocking stuff out of Ice Storm, annoying melees, etc.). I absolutely hate Phantasm's knockback, so I only really bring him out for elite bosses and tougher mobs once leveled. If you like having Phantasm out all the time, then CC is probably not the power for you. However, between CC and Phantasm, I believe a proc slotted CC will definitely do much more damage than Phantasm over time vs groups and provide vastly better control/mitigation (although at the expense of being a constant and heavy endurance drain). PS. I went and updated the build to put back in the 4th damage proc to CC. |
Once the power hits, then it does two more random number checks. There is a 50% chance of a Mag 2 hold, and an 80% chance of a Mag 1 hold, and the two holds will stack. As a result, you get:
10% chance of 0 Mag
40% chance of 1 Mag (which does nothing on its own, but will stack with other holds)
10% chance of 2 Mag (which hold Minions only, but will stack with other holds)
40% chance of 3 Mag (Minions and Lieutenants, and needs another hold for bosses)
For each pulse, minions will be held 50% of the time that the power hits, and Lieutenants will be held 40% of the time. At level 50, the hold has a base duration of 7.45 seconds and pulses every 5 seconds. If you fully slot Choking Cloud for Hold Duration (95%), that hold will last for about 14.5 second -- just shy of 3 subsequent pulses. Set bonuses that add hold duration can get it past 15 seconds.
One thing I have not yet tested is whether procs in Choking Cloud have a chance to fire off on every pulse, or if they have a chance to fire when the power is cast and every 10 seconds afterwards. I suspect that the latter is true, since procs in toggles generally activate every 10 seconds.
<Fixed because I was being dumb>
Because of the odd way that Choking Cloud stacks mag, the Lockdown proc seems to work well. On the 50% of minions not held, the Lockdown proc adds a 15% chance to hold them. Of the 60% of Lieutenants not held, the Lockdown proc adds a 13.5% chance to hold them. Same with 50% of bosses. In effect, it adds a 7.5% chance to hold more minions, slightly over 8% chance to hold more lieutenants, and an 7.5% chance to hold bosses (which Choking Cloud cannot do on its own).
You see the Tesla Cage animation pop up a lot. However, many of those are on foes who would have been held by Choking Cloud anyway. Still, I think that the proc is quite effective in Choking Cloud. I am not completely sure if the proc has a chance to fire every pulse (5 seconds) or every other pulse (10 seconds). I really should test that.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
High Accuracy only goes so far in Choking Cloud. Yes, it does check for a ToHit first. It starts at the base 75% and is supposed to not take Accuracy . . . but we know you can fit in Accuracy with sets, Hami-Os and global accuracy. Plus Defense Debuffs such as the one in RI have the effect of adding accuracy. But still, the 95% cap is in effect, so anything over the 95% cap is wasted. I find that on most of my higher builds, I have plenty of global accuracy and don't really need to slot Choking Cloud for more accuracy.
Once the power hits, then it does two more random number checks. There is a 50% chance of a Mag 2 hold, and an 80% chance of a Mag 1 hold, and the two holds will stack. As a result, you get: 10% chance of 0 Mag 40% chance of 1 Mag (which does nothing on its own, but will stack with other holds) 10% chance of 2 Mag (which hold Minions only, but will stack with other holds) 40% chance of 3 Mag (Minions and Lieutenants, and needs another hold for bosses) For each pulse, minions will be held 50% of the time that the power hits, and Lieutenants will be held 40% of the time. At level 50, the hold has a base duration of 7.45 seconds and pulses every 5 seconds. If you fully slot Choking Cloud for Hold Duration (95%), that hold will last for about 14.5 second -- just shy of 3 subsequent pulses. Set bonuses that add hold duration can get it past 15 seconds. One thing I have not yet tested is whether procs in Choking Cloud have a chance to fire off on every pulse, or if they have a chance to fire when the power is cast and every 10 seconds afterwards. I suspect that the latter is true, since procs in toggles generally activate every 10 seconds. Because of the odd way that Choking Cloud stacks mag, the Lockdown proc seems to work well. On the 50% of minions not held, the Lockdown proc adds a 20% chance to hold them. Of the 60% of Lieutenants not held, the Lockdown proc adds a 18% chance to hold them. Same with 100% of bosses. In effect, it adds a 10% chance to hold more minions, slightly over 10% chance to hold more lieutenants, and an 18% chance to hold bosses (which Choking Cloud cannot do on its own). You see the Tesla Cage animation pop up a lot. However, nearly half of those are on foes who would have been held by Choking Cloud anyway. Still, I think that the proc is quite effective in Choking Cloud. I am not completely sure if the proc has a chance to fire every pulse (5 seconds) or every other pulse (10 seconds). I really should test that. |
I think this is some of the general misinformation that has been going around for a while. While unenhanced, this information is correct, global to-hit powers dramatically change the final probabilities. Global to-hit and mob -to-hit both have a direct impact on the final probabilities. You can see the rolls in the combat log and it is trivial to test out, just turn on and off RI while watching the combat logs with CC turned on.
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I suppose that could be wrong, but Castle generally knew what he was talking about.
I'm not sure the combat logs are reporting the correct information, but I haven't spent time testing. With any "chance for" system, it will take a LOT of testing to determine statistically whether the numbers are correct, and you also have to worry whether the system is actually reporting the data you need to get a statistically significant sample with a small enough variation.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Sometime in the past, there was a discussion about how Choking Cloud works, and questions were being thrown around about the effect of Accuracy and buffs on the power. Castle came in the thread and stated that the percentages (the 50% and 80%) were built into the power and could not be enhanced; only the initial hit roll could be affected with global accuracy.
I suppose that could be wrong, but Castle generally knew what he was talking about. I'm not sure the combat logs are reporting the correct information, but I haven't spent time testing. With any "chance for" system, it will take a LOT of testing to determine statistically whether the numbers are correct, and you also have to worry whether the system is actually reporting the data you need to get a statistically significant sample with a small enough variation. |
...I'm not sure the combat logs are reporting the correct information... |
Ok, I did some more testing and got results that were quite different than when I tested this about a year and a half ago (when RI made a huge difference to final ToHit probabilities) and this is what I found out about the current state of the power for i19.
1. Accuracy is irrelevant to the power. It has a default accuracy of 100% but since there is no way to reduce accuracy in game via powers (as far as I know), just ToHit, lowering accuracy is not relevant. I tested with 1.0 and 1.26 accuracy and got the same combat rolls of 95% chance to hit, 50 and 80, so increasing accuracy didn't help either. Btw, I tested this on an unlsotted alternate build that had no global accuracy and was still getting to hit rolls of 95%.
2. ToHit is irrelevant to the power. I turned on and off Tactics and got the same 95/80/50 rolls. Actually, to test this further it would be nice to floor ToHit and see if the probabilities change at all (especially the 95% one and if it does what effect does it have -- does it only affect procs or both procs and hold).
3. Mob -ToHit is irrelevant to the power. I turned on and off RI and got the same 95/80/50 rolls.
4. The power is not auto hit since you see the 95% chance to hit rolls. There is a slight chance that the 95% chance calculation is just used for determining if a proc is going to go off and that the chance to hold is auto hit. The fact that the 95% roll comes last in the log tends to support that. It would be nice to test this further.
5. The power ticks every 5 seconds and can proc every X seconds. This needs more testing.
It looks like we were both wrong about the current state of CC:
High Accuracy only goes so far in Choking Cloud. Yes, it does check for a ToHit first. It starts at the base 75% and is supposed to not take Accuracy . . . but we know you can fit in Accuracy with sets, Hami-Os and global accuracy. Plus Defense Debuffs such as the one in RI have the effect of adding accuracy. But still, the 95% cap is in effect, so anything over the 95% cap is wasted. I find that on most of my higher builds, I have plenty of global accuracy and don't really need to slot Choking Cloud for more accuracy.
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Accuracy is irrelevant to CC. It starts at 100% and gets limited to 95% in the rolls. There is no way to directly decrease accuracy (as far as I can tell) from powers and increasing accuracy makes no difference (tested this today). High ToHit is irrelevant to the power as well. I didn't test it but it would be nice to know how the power behaves with floored ToHit. Also, the default accuracy for CC is 100% not 75% like indicated.
Because of the odd way that Choking Cloud stacks mag, the Lockdown proc seems to work well. On the 50% of minions not held, the Lockdown proc adds a 20% chance to hold them.
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Of the 60% of Lieutenants not held, the Lockdown proc adds a 18% chance to hold them.
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Same with 100% of bosses. In effect, it adds a 10% chance to hold more minions, slightly over 10% chance to hold more lieutenants, and an 18% chance to hold bosses (which Choking Cloud cannot do on its own).
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With the Lockdown proc, the probabilities would be:
8.5% chance of 0 Mag
34% chance of 1 Mag
10% chance of 2 Mag
40% chance of 3 Mag
1.5% chance of 4 Mag
6% chance of 5 Mag
Well, I know the Lockdown USED TO BE 20%. I remember when the Devastation Chance for Hold proc was dropped from 20% to 15%, but I don't recall seeing that the Lockdown proc was changed. My bad. I thought it was still 20%.
I can't check in game now . . . but Paragonwiki said it is 15%, so I'll agree that I was wrong.
I was also wrong about the boss numbers. . . . I have too many numbers flying around my head today, and I was being dumb. I'm not sure what I was thinking . . . of course the +2 Mag will only hit bosses if you already have Mag 2, so that's only 50% of the time.
Hey, at least I admit when I'm wrong. . . . Sorry. I went back and fixed the prior post.
As for the Accuracy . . . I have never aimed to slot Accuracy in Choking Cloud, even though some got in there from the sets I use. I simply relied upon my global accuracy to handle it. Red Tomax's City of Data entry lists Choking Cloud as having an accuracy of 1.0, which means the default accuracy. Once I have some time this weekend, I'll try to take a look. I have two Fire/Rads at 50 and an Elec/Rad at around 41 who have Choking Cloud, so I'll try to take a look.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Out of curiosity, I did the calculations for a 4 slotted damage proc CC.
The results:
.3% chance for 4 damage procs to trigger simultaneously
3.7% chance for 3 damage procs to trigger simultaneously
19.1% chance for 2 damage procs to trigger simultaneously
42.6% chance for 1 damage proc to trigger
34.3% chance for 0 damage procs to trigger
65.7% chance for at least 1 damage proc to trigger
23.1% chance for at least 2 damage procs to trigger simultaneously
4.0% chance for at least 3 damage procs to trigger simultaneously
DPS: 9.2 DPS per target in range of CC up to 16 (assuming the 10 second rule). At 8 targets it would be doing 73.6 DPS and at 16 targets it would be doing 147.2 DPS.
===============================================
The calculations:
1111 .33 .20 .20 .20 (.00264) bsss
0111 .67 .20 .20 .20 (.00536) sss
1011 .33 .80 .20 .20 (.01056) bss
1101 .33 .20 .80 .20 (.01056) bss
1110 .33 .20 .20 .80 (.01056) bss
(.03704)
0011 .67 .80 .20 .20 (.02144) ss
1100 .33 .20 .80 .80 (.04224) bs
0110 .67 .20 .20 .80 (.02144) ss
1001 .33 .80 .80 .20 (.04224) bs
0101 .67 .20 .80 .20 (.02144) ss
1010 .33 .80 .20 .80 (.04224) bs
(.19104)
0001 .67 .80 .80 .20 (.08576) s
1000 .33 .80 .80 .80 (.16896) b
0100 .67 .20 .80 .80 (.08576) s
0010 .67 .80 .20 .80 (.08576) s
(.42624)
0000 .67 .80 .80 .80 (.34304) 0
s = 71.75
b = 106.9
for 4 (.00264 * (b + (s * 3))) = .85
for 3 (.00536 * s * 3) + (.01056 * (b + (s * 2))) = 27.6
for 2 (.02144 * s * 6) + (.04224 * s * 3) + (.04224 * b * 3) = 31.86
for 1 (.08576 * s * 3) + (.16896 * b) = 36.5
for 0 0
1:
Per Tick: 92
Per Second (10 sec rule): 9.2
OK, I've finally decided to make an Ill/Rad/Ice. I have a great deal of experience with both the Illusion and Radiation sets from other toons (Ill/FF controller and DP/Rad corrupter). I'm really going for a max AoE damage toon here.
I have read Local_Man's guide and while I agree with a lot of it, I think my play style is a bit different. Most notably, I love slotting CC with damage procs and as long as the duration is > 10 seconds things are decent for holds. Also, CC can take up to 4 damage procs. I think CC and Ice Storm will have good synergy (but I haven't tested this yet). Deceive I only really like for leveling, at 50 I almost never use it on my Ill/FF so I didn't include it in this build since it was so tight.
Some of the benefits of the build:
1. Capped S/L defense.
2. Perma Hasten, AM and Phantom Army (208.8% haste not including incarnate).
3. Lots of AOE damage: Choking Cloud, Frost Breath and Ice Storm.
4. Decent endurance recovery Recovers 4.91 end/s with no toggles and 2.38 end/s when running all toggles including CC, RI and EF (the only toggles I don't run will be Tough and Improved Invisibility, which I only use for stealth movement and as a slotting mule).
Some of the not-so-nice features:
1. Somewhat expensive with 3+ purple sets, 1 PvP IO and lots of HOs.
2. No Stun/Mez protection (guess that's what break frees are for).
Anyways, I've never used the Ice Mastery set before. Are the AoE damage powers really as nice as they seem and are they affected by containment?
Any suggestions, corrections or improvements would be greatly appreciated.
Here is the build:
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.92
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Phanta Girl: Level 50 Magic Controller
Primary Power Set: Illusion Control
Secondary Power Set: Radiation Emission
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Ice Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Blind -- HO:Perox(A), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(3), Decim-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(3), Decim-Dmg/Rchg(5), Decim-Dmg/EndRdx(5), Decim-Acc/Dmg(29)
Level 1: Radiant Aura -- Dct'dW-Heal(A), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx(9), Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg(13), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(36), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(36)
Level 2: Spectral Wounds -- Apoc-Dam%(A), Apoc-Dmg(9), Apoc-Acc/Rchg(17), Apoc-Dmg/EndRdx(23), Apoc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(25)
Level 4: Radiation Infection -- DarkWD-ToHitDeb(A), DarkWD-ToHitdeb/Rchg/EndRdx(7), DarkWD-ToHitDeb/EndRdx(7), DarkWD-Rchg/EndRdx(11)
Level 6: Accelerate Metabolism -- P'Shift-EndMod(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(13), Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg(15)
Level 8: Superior Invisibility -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), Krma-ResKB(40)
Level 10: Flash -- UbrkCons-EndRdx/Hold(A), UbrkCons-Acc/Rchg(15), UbrkCons-Acc/Hold/Rchg(25), UbrkCons-Hold/Rchg(31), UbrkCons-Hold(33)
Level 12: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(27)
Level 14: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), Ksmt-ToHit+(45)
Level 16: Enervating Field -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(43)
Level 18: Phantom Army -- S'bndAl-Build%(A), S'bndAl-Dmg/Rchg(19), ExRmnt-Acc/Rchg(19), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(21), ExRmnt-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(21), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg(23)
Level 20: Lingering Radiation -- Acc-I(A)
Level 22: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), EndRdx-I(34)
Level 24: Tactics -- Rec'dRet-Pcptn(A), Rec'dRet-ToHit(39), HO:Cyto(42)
Level 26: Spectral Terror -- HO:Endo(A)
Level 28: Choking Cloud -- EoCur-EndRdx/Hold(A), UbrkCons-Dam%(29), NrncSD-Dam%(31), G'Wdw-Dam%(37), G'Wdw-EndRdx/Hold(40), GladNet-Dam%(42)
Level 30: Boxing -- KntkC'bat-Knock%(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(31), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(36), KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(37)
Level 32: Phantasm -- HO:Nucle(A), ExRmnt-Acc/Rchg(33), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg(34), ExRmnt-Dmg/EndRdx(34)
Level 35: Tough -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A)
Level 38: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), HO:Cyto(40)
Level 41: Ice Blast -- Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), Decim-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(42), Decim-Dmg/Rchg(43), Decim-Dmg/EndRdx(43), Decim-Acc/Dmg(46)
Level 44: Frost Breath -- Posi-Dam%(A), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(45), Posi-Dmg/Rng(45), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(46), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(46)
Level 47: Ice Storm -- Ragnrk-Dmg/EndRdx(A), Ragnrk-Acc/Rchg(48), Ragnrk-Dmg/Rchg(48), Ragnrk-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), Ragnrk-Dmg(50)
Level 49: Frozen Armor -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(50), HO:Cyto(50)
Level 0: Born In Battle
Level 0: High Pain Threshold
Level 0: Invader
Level 0: Marshal
Level 50: Musculature Total Radial Revamp
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Level 1: Brawl -- KntkC'bat-Knock%(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(37), KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(39), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(39)
Level 1: Sprint -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Containment
Level 6: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Mrcl-Rcvry+(A), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(17)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod(11), EndMod-I(27)
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Set Bonus Totals: