Little_Whorn

Wow, fantastic responses from everyone!

Lots of good ideas here, but first I never meant to declare my builds the ultimate winners. I'm glad some people realized that. I merely meant that in comparison to my mains, other concepts simply paled. With respect to my view of my plant/psi dom being my gold standard, of course that is my own view, not the ultimate truth. As an aside, I can make an argument that my plant/psi IS better than your ___(insert favorite toon here), but I'll leave that for another thread :P

I love some of the ideas posted here, and I'm going to try to incorporate as many as possible to force myself to enjoy something for reasons other than min-maxing potential. So, I think I'm gonna roll a warshade or something else different on some new server not virtue and just try to remind myself to enjoy the ride rather than the end outcome. I'll focus more attention on creating a backstory and appropriate costumes. I've never thought of intentionally gimping certain aspects of my toons for challenge too. Definitely think I'm going to give that a try. To that end, I've always wanted to find a close-knit smallish SG or VG to bounce with, anyone have any suggestions?

Actually I'm excited to try to start anew! Thanks everyone

Hey all,

I apologize in advance if I sound vague, but I've been feeling a bit lost lately in playing CoH. Basically, I'm having trouble finding a new AT or powerset to enjoy. My problem seems to be that I only get enjoyment from minmaxing, but I've already purpled out the heroes that satisfy that urge. For example, every time I try out new damage powersets such as demon summoning, warshades, or SoAs, or even SS/fire brutes, I inevitably feel dissatisfied because they don't measure up to my gold standard (my plant/psi dom). So then I try rolling a single target char to challenge AVs and such, but every new toon I try just feels weak compared to the ill/rad I've already finished. Same goes for tanking, buff supporting, etc.

So i'm beginning to think that my dissatisfaction is stemming from my over-reliance on min-maxing for my enjoyment. So my question is this:

How do you all find enjoyment in your "lesser" heroes? How do you escape that niggling feeling that you could be killing/supporting/tanking/etc better with one of your mains? I guess I just want to figure out another way to look at playing this game so that I can be perfectly happy just playing an interesting powerset (like /poison or dual blades) rather than the most efficient or powerful one.

It's kind of a philosophical dilemma but I'm hoping some of you might be able to provide insight into how you enjoy this game.

Hooray! A reply! Thanks for the input Crab. After using the power more, I'm thinking about just stripping it and applying the slots elsewhere. It's unfortunate really, since the power animation looks cool and the immobilize is nice. However, the cast time is horrendous, the damage fairly negligible, and the immob takes FOREVER to root the enemies, even after the cast time has ended.

Still though, thanks for the input.

Yea, I was thinking clarion for just that reason Local_Man. However, as I'm running with Spiritual, Rebirth is looking good too. My biggest concern at the moment is keeping Phanty, Mr. Tarantula, and the Lore pets afloat when GM's/AVs decide to spam their AoE attacks. Any thoughts on which destiny might keep my pets alive the best when they inevitably decide that melee is their best course of action?

So any ideas on which destiny I should take for my ill/rad/mace?

I'm already Perma-PA/hasten, softcapped to S/L/R, so i'm thinking barrier might be overkill. What do you think about clarion for some mez prot? Although, I don't find myself really needing any of the destiny powers tho tbh Any thoughts?

Hey all,

I'm going for a ranged aoe hover crab and I'm trying to decide how to slot School of Sharks. Go for immob sets for the IO bonuses or Posi for the dmg? Is it worth slotting it for dmg? Here's my build.

http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/downl...C9F15F86EDFD26

Yea, I never thought of the exempting down point. Suppose my disappointment stems from the game's lack of quality difficult end game to match the incarnate powers, but that's old news. Guess I could just spend more time lvling up more toons rather than focusing on the lvl 50 endgame scenario. Good point BruteSquad

[QUOTE=But this game isn't Dungeons and Dragons. Superheroes don't HAVE classes. The notion of forcing people to specialize was always a bad one. Lots of them have the same powers, just in different gradations.

Forcing people to specialize forced people who wanted to, for instance, use force fields to become H34L0rs on teams...when that isn't the role they thought they ought to have.

But no, no, Industry Leader and years of tabletop gameplay have convinced everyone that we must have classes! Only one kind of superhero has superstrength! Only one kind of hero has blasts! That guy with kinetic speed powers? Well, he has to be H34L0r.[/QUOTE]

No, not quite. Specialization doesn't necessarily imply reliance upon the DnD tank/mage/healer trinity. There are lots of other abilities that classes can specialize in and still be very useful. You said it yourself. FF isn't forced to be a healer, FF buffs defense which is just as useful (or more) than healing. At most, a focus on specialization would only force FF players to focus on buffing defense while forcing healers to focus on healing, etc, etc.

Specialization isn't a dirty word. Look at TF2. Every class is fairly well defined and everyone can find a playstyle that appeals to them. But anyone who plays TF2 understands that a medic is not supposed to be the l33t dmg dealer on the team. No one expects the spy to wade in the front door guns ablaze without eating pavement. Same analogy can be used for CoH.

No, Incarnate slots have done the equivalent of letting all of the classes in TF2 do massive dmg while simultaneously being able to heal and buff others. I just can't see anyone who rolls a empathy def looking to heal (or a FF looking to buff team def, or a fire blaster looking to AoE spawns) not being a bit disappointed when incarnate powers allow everyone else, regardless of toon, to heal/buff/dmg just as much.

Hey all.

What do you think is the best brute for soloing 1-20? I'm interested in experiencing the praetoria arcs and I want to get the best dmg and survivability for those lvls. I don't care if the toon is end game wimp. Gonna be retired after praetoria anyway. I'm most likely rolling claws for the early and powerful AoE.

Which armor do you think blossoms earliest in Praetoria keeping in mind the s/l/e dmg prevalence there?

I'm thinking fire armor for HF, but not sure.

Err. Let me add that I'm putting this in General ATs cuz I'm not set on a brute. Will another AT give me an easier time soloing Praetoria 1-20? Maybe stalker?

In response to Comicsluvr, you're right. I really don't have an issue with the alpha slot since it requires players to choose and have access to one and only one. Can't have spiritual AND musculature running at the same time. But, as you put it, that's the problem with the new incarnate stuff. I can have a nuke, debuff, buff, and pets all at the same time. No way around it. If everyone can sufficiently perform everyone's roles, there has to be some marginalization of each AT's uniqueness.

In response to the "form your own team of steamroll" argument, I don't see how this is relevant. 1) We could do that pre-incarnate slots anyway. 2) It's much easier (too easy IMO) to form a steamroll. I get that you feel special in forming and leading a powerful team. I love doing that as well. But my argument is that its just too easy to make such a team now. How many recruiting BAFs or Lambdas take the time to inquire about people's ATs and abilities? How often do you see the new content teams looking for particular ATs? Almost never. Why? Because it's just not necessary. Get a team full of incarnates and it doesn't matter what ATs join or what skill each player has. With barrier and judgment alone, everyone is capped to def (and res for a limited time) and deals fantastic damage. Maybe if the content was more difficult or team size more limited
you'd have a point. Apex and Tin Mage seemed to be the "more difficult content without massive parallel increase in player power" step in the right direction IMO. But unfortunately with the new incarnate content, player power is again racing out ahead of content difficulty and building steamroll teams is just not anything fantastic anymore.

And no, I'm definitely not crying Doom. I love playing this game. Not sure this game will ever be doomed anytime soon (which is good). Where else would we turn for a superhero themed MMO? CO or DCUO? Riiiight...

To those who have emphasized feeling special is tied up to skill rather than powers now, I agree to a limited extent. The problem is that for the vast majority of the content offered now simply spamming your powers is enough. You can have all the skill in the world with your [insert AT], but it doesn't mean a damn if anyone can walk up and nuke a spawn into dust. The game's diminishing difficulty completely sinks the whole skill argument. Skill allows players to distinguish themselves when faced with unusually difficult content. But what is difficult in this game anymore when teamed? BAFs? Lambdas? Please. Failure on those is rare and becoming rarer with the main reason for failure being not enough warm bodies. Another warm body is another judgment-slinging, team-buffing asset, no matter the skill.

Silverado's argument for skill really only applies in those outlier situations like someone soloing 9 AVs at once in AE. For the rest of the content, these new incarnate powers enable anyone and everyone to blow through it. Where's the skill in that? And let's be honest anyway, compared to many other game genres, CoH and MMOs in general don't exactly require high amounts of player skill.

As for the post saying teaching others should be the source of enjoyment, fine. However, 1) I'm not sure I log onto CoH to be an ambassador for the game. 2) You can do that without these overpowered incarnate abilities anyway so I question the relevance.

Disclaimer: this post is unusually long, so feel free to ignore it. I just wanted to take the time to express something that had been on my mind and felt that the OP's viewpoints might resonate with my own.

I think I actually agree with the OP. What I liked most about this game was the separation of the ATs, the uniqueness of every AT. Let me explain. I'd roll builds that, when I played them on a team, I felt unique like I was doing something that everyone would notice and appreciate my presence on the team. I.E. having a ridiculously survivable tank, a kin/sonic to best maximize damage, a plant dom to best control groups, or a fire/fire blaster to be a true glass howitzer. Every AT had its weaknesses and strengths. In a team, others would appreciate my unique strengths and would help cover my weaknesses. The whole experience could be summed up in compliments from others such as, "great buffing" or "your tank can take quite a beating".

But now, the devs are moving us toward a state where everyone is good at everything. And with Incarnates, everyone can be great at everything. In some sense, I understand why this would be desirable. No more weak classes being unable to contribute to the team. No one's going to yell at a /dev blaster anymore when they can pump out Judgment damage or Barrier buffs, both sufficient to cruise through 90+% of the game. You can roleplay any type of character and be effective on all fronts. But on the other hand, the dev's endgame moves have reduced the uniqueness of every class. Not to zero (we're not carbon copies), but by a significant amount. It's hard to feel wanted or needed or my practiced skill with a particular AT will be necessary for tough PVE content, when everyone is capable of ridiculous feats of buffing, dmg, survival, etc.

It's disappointing. I remember reading a thread, "Most Useful [Support AT]", filled with people's comments about how FF/ was dmg deprived but could alone turn a PUG into a powerhouse. I'm sure all of the dedicated FFers felt like they could do something that others couldn't match. Same argument went for other ATs. Wonder if they'd still feel nearly as useful now.

Can't say the writing wasn't on the wall. IOs allowed everyone to become def capped. Too bad for the DEF buffers. IOs allowed everyone to get insane global rech. Too bad for the SB kins. Now Incarnate slots normalize everyone even further. Everyone's powerful, everyone can do everything, and no one's unique. For everyone who played D2, same thing happened in Diablo 2 when they released runewords like enigma and everyone could do everything that was originally unique to one class. Sure it was fun in the beginning and so are IOs and Incarnates. But eventually, in games such as CoH and Diablo 2 where the majority of the experience comes in experiencing the different classes' play styles and powers rather than new quests/zones, the "sameness" grows old and damages the game. Now the experience of being a badass AOE spines scrapper or fire blaster, of being a rock solid stone tank, of being a super versatile rad debuffer, have been diluted. Now, on a normal team of incarnates, everyone will have massive judgment damage, be extremely survivable, and be capable of buffing. Hooray...

On a more constructive note, I think incarnates would have been less hurtful to the game if they had been designed to be used less often. Maybe if judgment and destiny weren't up every other mob, classes normally designed to fill those roles wouldn't feel so marginalized.

I know it sounds ridiculous, but imagine if we went back to SOs only (dev efforts instead went into creating new unique powers for each class and designing new quests/zones). Ignoring subpar powersets for the moment, nobody could compare ATs because each would fulfill a unique role. Sure, the traditional redside ATs will blur the boundaries, but not nearly as much as IOs and Incarnate slots have. Imagine building leagues for BAFs and Lambdas and other TFs with only SOs. You'd most likely want a little of everything. Everyone's character would be useful. Stock up too much on healers and tanks, there won't be enough control, debuff, dmg, or buff. Everyone would feel useful and necessary to their team. On the downside, traditionally "unfun" ATs such as healers or shield buffers would be in unusually high demand, but then the devs could just focus their attention on revamping the healing and buffing playstyles to make them more active and fun. People could still feel "super" at what they specialize in, just not godlike tank mages as is entirely possible now.

I dunno. Been thinking about this for a long time and thought I'd take the time to share my thoughts. If you managed to read this far, what do you think? Of course, this post is my opinion and as such, is full of value judgments and assumptions based only on my experiences. Any thoughts on yours?

I'm thinking about i20 and wondering what the HP cap is on the MM pets? I'm thinking the +HP buff might be nice on MMs depending on how high the HP cap is on the pets.

A few more questions and clarifications.

1) Since TAoE sets apply to vine attacks now, is this across the board? I.E. does the Hunter proc apply to vine attacks too? Or is the distinction now (in creepers as of i14, i15 apparently) that if a particular component does immob, then immob proc applies. If it does dmg (now TAoE or ST), then dmg procs apply. Does this mean that the Hunter proc still doesn't apply to Vine attacks since there is no immob attached there?

2) is the creepers pet buffable by Fulcrum shift, AM, leadership, etc? Any plant/kins out there to shed light? If so, are just the vines that are present buffable and the underlying pet that casts entangle not buffable?

Very interesting. I remember creepers being fixed at some point, but at the time i wasnt interested in plants so i didnt know what happened. That changes things then. Thats a huge chance for procing. Thanks for the info

So I'm proc'ing creepers and deciding how far to go. It takes an enormous amount of procs, but in order to slot them all I'd have to sacrifice accuracy and damage. Bear in mind, I don't need recharge. With Spirit Core Paragon, it's perma out of the box for me. And I know it needs accuracy so consider that too. Lastly, remember that each proc fires on some of the creepers actions but not all.

5 procs below:
Javelin Volley: Lethal. Procs on Entangle. 10s. 5 targets.
Trap of the Hunter: Lethal. Procs on Entangle. 10s. 5 targets.
Positron Blast: Energy. Procs on Entangle. 10s. 5 targets.
Impeded Swiftness: Smashing. Procs on slow patch and vine strikes. Initial Slow and each Vine attack.
Explosive Strike: Smashing. Procs on Vine Strikes. Each Vine attack.

If I decide to slot all 5 procs, that leaves one slot for acc/dam. I can put an Acc IO or an Acc/Dam HO.

So my final questions are
1) How many of the Procs and which ones do you think I should slot? Will slotting the procs at the expense of straight up damage be a bad idea? Should I not ignore damage, or is Creepers's damage negligible to the proc output? I kinda like the full proc idea, but I'm unsure.

2) IF I GO ALL PROCS, Acc/Dam HO or Common Acc IO?

Any thoughts from the more experienced than myself?

Thanks everyone for the replies. Gonna roll with ice mastery for the fast blast and the shield. I really don't get mezzed all too often, so I think psi mastery may be a bit useless for me. Also, wanted to say, props to your ill/rad guide local. I've always liked revisiting it.

So, I'm on an ill/rad, capped to ranged and perma PA. Which APP do you think would be more helpful at this point? Psi for the status protection? Or ice to add S/L capping and a ranged single target attack? It would be nice for the extra attack to use with spectral wound and defense, but what do you all think? Is status protection just too sweet to pass up?

Thx

From what I've seen, the melee AI behavior affects every pet. Speaking from experience though...

Fly trap, dark servant, robotics, MM pets in general, Phantasm. They all have an increased tendency to move in to melee. It's not a sure thing, but it's definitely noticeable. I haven't specifically looked at temp pets like heavies yet, but I'd bet they follow the same behavior. I'd be willing to bet this melee AI bug affects all pets, but in practice depends somewhat on each pet's powers.

I'm glad Castle says he's looking into it though. Hopefully it won't be like before when it took forever for the devs to address the opposite problem: melee pets hanging back and sticking to their limited ranged attacks.

The ironic thing about this whole melee AI bug is that now all the ranged pets are getting screwed when before all of the melee pets were being screwed. Melee pets used to commonly sit at range and throw rocks (bruiser) or shoot arrows (genin). Having to use elaborate goto binds just to get the ninjas or bruiser to use their melee attacks was almost as frustrating as getting bots and mercs to fight at ranged now. Maybe there's an upside to the current AI behavior. Maybe the devs just want us to employ more melee minions. For example, I'm currently loving my Dark Servant who, with his chill of the night aura, now runs right up the enemies and wraps them in his dark embrace!

I hate to say it, but bots is a joke now compared to what it was capable of. Bots heavily relies on the assault bot's Incendiary missiles for damage and nerfing them to 1/3 the damage really affects the set's overall damage. Used to be the ridiculous damage on the missiles would push bots over thugs in terms of damage under many circumstances. Now unless i'm mistaken, the assault bot's missiles does virtually the same damage as the arsonist's firebomb, but still takes 20s compared to arsonist's 10s to deliver the damage. The assault bot's missiles still have the larger radius, but both radii are quite large (15' and 20').

Don't get me wrong, I love (and still like) the steamroller that is bots. I've IO'd my own bots/traps. But now it's less of a steamroller and more of a household iron. Still able to flatten things, but nowhere near its prior ability.

Actually now that I think about it, even though it was a mistake, it almost seems more fair now since bots is clearly one of the hardiest pet classes. No sense in giving one of the sturdiest pets the best damage as well. And now it opens up room for patron pools other than Mu Mastery. hmm, maybe this could actually be a good thing for the game balance.