Leo_G

I'm not an elitist, I really am not. I've only got 2 lvl 50s, neither of which are stalkers, I don't have the dozens of characters others have (I probably only have about 26 that I can count off the top of my head), I don't have billions of inf to spend on stupid-powerful builds and I don't play the game all that often (actually, I've been playing quite a bit more when GR came out but still probably still less than 10 hours a week).

But the complaints you guys make...it just makes me seem like the super amazing player...which I'm not >_>

So either I'm amazing or you guys are just exaggerating your complaint to give it false merit. For example:

"I'm opening up in the middle of a large group of critters that want to stomp my butt, as soon as I become visible. Hells, sooner. I'll often get hit before I get the attack of, even using my AS. Of course it used to be a lot worse before the changes to AS. But No risk, what type of team play do you do?"

I just got off a team with 2 brutes and 2 MMs on my Spines/DA stalker. Vs foes with energy damage, he can do some serious evading, but against Longbow (what we were facing), he might as well not have defense. And yet, I could still pull off AS after the group was engaged. How?

Well, the Brute had a bad habit of running up to a group, taunting and then running around a corner. Of course, the Longbow will retaliate with their grenades, flame throwers and buckshots. I'd totally get knocked out of hide on more than a few occasions...if I were standing next to the Brute, that is. Does it take a rocket scientist to think "Oh, the Brute is about to get AoE'ed, I should step over here so I'm not hit"? This is common sense survival 101 I figured out on my Blasters. You don't stand next to the guy getting shot at unless you want to get shot at too.

As the Longbow paraded to get line of sight back, I was moved in their path and queue'ing up AS on a boss/Lt that was going to walk past me. By the time they got near the corner, the Assassin's Strike message pops up and I'm not even standing near the enemy. Placate > Throw Spines combined with his Lightning Rod and you're looking at a bunch of dead stuff.

Even if he wasn't pulling back behind a corner, just don't stand next to the guy getting shot. It's that simple. Longbow don't have PBAoEs they're spamming (nor Arachnos or Freaks or lots of other groups) so just standing next to the enemy doesn't mean you're a target. If you happen to wade into the hot-zone, you've got a defense cushion.

I'll be signing off on the discussion unless you actually have something to talk about but one final thing:

It only needs to protect you when you're trying to use AS. This was your complaint at the top of your post, after all...that you couldn't use AS in a mob...well that's what Hide helps do.

I'll also just say it right now: You don't know what you're asking for. If the AoE defense were removed, my Elec/Regen stalker (who isn't spected for high defense) would *consistently* have trouble using AS because damage interrupts it. Far more trouble than a non-def set should. That has nothing to do with being knocked out of hide, it has to do with damage interrupting AS.

So you're going to suggest removing the interrupt on AS now too? So damage doesn't break hide and AS will always go off? Might as well make it auto-hit while you're at it...

It's a slippery slope. If you don't have a focus for what you're trying to solve, you're just gonna have to pile on more changes to make the others viable/attractive. Then we're left with something that doesn't resemble Stalkers at all.

No, I argued the point that the changes suggested to Hide wouldn't solve the problems of the AT.

I pointed out the AoE defense because the suggestion wanted a way to circumvent attacks not directed at the Stalker...which capped defense to AoE does.

Yeah, you do that...

Then you can just not like what I have to say and move on. And point to where I said I disagree. Wait, I'll save you the work. I didn't.

Nothing should be guaranteed in a game except what is stated in the rules. There is no rule that says Stalkers need not take any risks to gain their reward.

It also mitigates 95% of damage not directed at you while you're ambushing a target. What it's meant to do and what it actually does should both be considered when altering things.

If you're going to rely on Hide (part of your inherent and not all of it) like a Brute relies on fury, then build for it. Cap your defense so *any* attack will have trouble knocking you out of hide. That'd one-up the proposed change in that, even attacks directed at you will come across extreme resistance.

...or is this really about caltrops?

But if you carry over that attitude toward other things (kind of like you did with the suggestion you were referring to), I'm positive it's the panacea for all the world's woes.

I guess you're right. It is a crutch if you're dumb enough to lean on it like a Brute would its fury.
And if you look back to old defiance, it only did 1 thing; give you a damage boost when you were low on HP while fighting.

Hide is *one* part of the AT's inherent and we recently got a change that made the issue of using AS in a crowd easier: Don't. Why do you think we've got scalable critical hit rate on teams and 50% crit rate on AoEs from hide in the first place?

And that's only if you believe there is an actual problem to be had. As far as I'm aware, the frequency people complain they are knocked out of hide on teams, is rare. Not that it rarely happens, but it's a mitigatable situation.

As far as balancing it across ATs, uh, yeah...Stalkers get a power that can cap your AoE defense at level one. That's the balance. Or do people fail to understand just how powerful some things are?

Vs a suggestion that doesn't address balance issues either? It's only as out of place as the original thought behind the change it was referring to. It wouldn't make the AT more survivable, more offensive, more viable to teams or solving a disparity among the other ATs.

I feel that reducing the need to be more aware of your surroundings and of the targets around you takes away from your role as a Stalker.

If I didn't have to worry about being knocked out of hide, there's no need to be aware of the enemy or of damage patches. I can just run into melee and fling off attacks like a scrapper with less health.

As is, if you *think* about the sequence of your actions, are aware of whats what and execute them *quickly*, you're rewarded. Because knowing that you can get dropped from hide with any stray damage means you can't doddle and you can't engage ignorantly. Change it so you don't have to bother or consider any factors but "move in, hit button" really just pushes you into the realm "Generic Melee #3".

I'm not saying a change to hide that doesn't force suppression from AoE dmg is a nerf, but you're not solving the issue of the AT or differentiating it from the other melees. Hell, the *reason* we have a huge bonus defense to AoE is for precisely this...with this change they might as well reduce it to normal so we can drown in any splash damage. It won't knock us out of hide so who cares?

Well, Crushing Impact doesn't provide defense.

I'd agree, try and fit in a -res proc in there. Flashing Steel is a good choice since it animates so fast and hits so many targets easily. Gambler's Cut is a good choice too...which you didn't slot...why's that? I can't actually open the build and can't see the stats so it may just be a super recharge build that focuses on using the higher tier powers more, but GC is still a really nice attack...

Eh, FF proc isn't all that, especially not in those attacks. It's probably better suited for KB attacks that can hit lots of enemies. If we were looking at a Dual Blades build, 1kcuts would be a good choice for this.

Only really need 1 in PvE. Not sure what this build is for, but if it's really for PvP (but no travel power >_>), I can still see getting away with 1, maybe instead squeezing in slots into combat jumping and using BoZ for some extra defense and KB protection.

I can't actually *see* the build but it seems like a lot of $$ for that melee defense that's readily available in Divine Avalanche.

That's the spirit! Hate what you don't understand. That's the solution to all the worlds problems!

Dark Armor's a bad example of this. While it's not so simple to find an attack that will stun a target outside of your primary set, it's pretty easy to find a power that will fear a target 100%. If you're adamant about getting off an AS, using Intimidate or Invoke Panic while Cloak of Fear is toggled will stop upwards of a non-resistant boss from striking back at all.

It's sets like Electric Armor and Regen which really don't have an alternative to getting off AS effectively while unhidden. But honestly, it's as simple as using a knock- power like Air superiority before hand.

Then there's always the option to just build the character to have defense. That works too.

Blinding powder doesn't have a chance of hold, as far as I know. In Mids, Paragonwiki, City of Data or in-game at character creation (I don't have any high level ninjutsu stalkers), it shows the -ToHit, the mag 2 sleep, the -perception and the chance for confuse but none say chance of hold.

Technically, natural accuracy of attacks (and Blinding Powder) is .75, natural accuracy of controls is .90 and natural accuracy of AoE controls is .60. So Smoke Flash's accuracy is a bit more than an extra .4.

Apparently you don't get it, then.

Since Hide will pretty much cap your AoE defense with slotting (and it's not suppressed), the only way to reliably hit a Stalker that is hidden is with Auto-Hit damage (I believe Rise of the Phoenix is auto-hit as well as Howling Twilight) or by using a melee or ranged attack...which requires targeting the Stalker.

Since those special-case auto-hit powers are kind of rare, I can only imagine your issue is with Clatrops. So I'll just say, lrn2ply and *not* get caught in them. Or just avoid Knives of Artemis.

No, but what does that have to do with hit-and-run?

And just to clarify, the critical burst is good for any target, not just the one placated. So you can just leave that target placated for the 20ish seconds while you mop up his buddies. Potent tool, yes, but probably not going to suddenly make your Stalker into a Tank.

Anyone with a travel power can hit and run. I thought you were more knowledgeable than that.

Hide is for ambush and infiltration, placate is to misdirect. Yeah there's hit in there...nothing to do with running.

Throw Spines, Spine Burst and Ripper can crit 50% from hide or after Placate.
One Thousand Cuts crits 50% from hide, has slightly longer range and can be combined with an instant damage buff in BU.
And Lightning Rod doesn't drop hide either.

See? It's give and take. Take some average AoE DPS for AoE Burst. It's particularly effective on teams with other AoE because you can get off your (greater) chunk before the others.

Works reverse. If Energy Melee is weak in AoE, apparently by design, what makes you think you're entitled to adding more AoE damage? Let's lower Dark Consumption's recharge to 60 seconds while we're at it because Dark Melee's AoE is just as weak, if not weaker...Yeah...I don't see that happening.

Case in point and using the same argument as you use for SS for Scraps, if it's not broken for Stalkers, it's not broken for Brutes or Tankers. Hmm?

Just to put it out there: I like Stalkers *and* Scrappers...and Brutes and I now have 2 tankers instead of one .

That said, I appreciate the different playstyles of each (although it's a bit too blurry between Scraps and Brutes...they're still very similar) and would like to preserve the differences (possibly even add more differenciation rather than blur the lines more).

Point to these 'many other tools'.

And as far as I know, Stalker, the AT, isn't weak in AoE output. Just look at Dual Blades, Spines and Electric Melee.

No, what Stalkers lack is the *sets* that are great at AoE damage. Which sets are good at AoE damage are the ones that haven't been proliferated to the AT yet.

And just to clarify, Stalkers are no more Blappers with hit and run tactics than Blasters are stealth strike assassin's with mez protection and armor. Stalkers are Stalkers and Blasters are Blasters. What tactics you use is dependent on the player and build. So thankfully, since you don't care about the balance among the melees with Stalkers as a factor, there are players out there that *do* weigh that balance and keep every melee AT in mind.

EM as a set has always been weak in AoE damage and, honestly, I expect it to stay that way. Just look at Dark Melee. On a Stalker, they aren't lacking much from the DM set.

Well lucky for you, those above concerns are minimal to non-essential at best.
-Less HP/HP cap than other melees
Has been addressed as our base HP has been moved up once before.
-One defensive power removed for Hide
Correction; One utility power is removed for Hide. For Regen, it was Quick Recovery (yeah, that's tough, but more endurance doesn't help you survive). For Dark Armor/Electric Armor it was a damage toggle (which actually draws more aggro and *decreases* survivability on teams). For outlier stuff like SR which is all survival powers, the extra defense lost from that extra +def passive was actually rolled into the other powers.
-Interruptible AS
Can be an issue until you learn how to use it. After playing Stalker for quite some time, it's 2nd nature and only an issue when damage patches are concerned.

No. Stalkers are not Scrappers. Stalkers shouldn't be Scrappers and the extra HP, while good for Scrapping and Tanking, isn't needed for what Stalkers do.
Yawn. Suggested before...

Now that Stamina will become inherent, the utility of Quick Recovery is reduced and Stalkers don't need a weak damage toggle that only pulls its own weight if you stand in a group of foes long enough. That isn't what stalkers are about.
Yawn x2.

Go check the Single Most Damaging Attack thread. According to the numbers, AS *is* the most powerful ST attack that isn't a crashing nuke. It's *not* suppose to be a 'use it all the time' power.

Why? What more is a small +res passive going to do for you that Repulse cannot? Brutes arguable get more survival out of the non-suppressing stealth of Energy Cloak than either passive. I know I can practically fight (and kill) half a spawn before the other side is even aware.

I'd suggest you play the AT a bit more, understand it's flaws and strengths, learn to use its tools and *then* come back to make suggestions on how to improve it. Maybe then, you can make suggestions that don't make Stalkers into 'Bland melee AT #3' for all the current Stalker fans.

Lightning Rod does not crit. It summons a Pseudo-pet that does damage to the location its summoned. The pseudo-pet has no idea if you're hidden or not so no, it does not crit.

Since you're summoning a pet and not directly damaging anything, using that attack will not unhide you.

True, Electrical Melee is awesome on Stalkers, but not because LR can crit (because it doesn't).

Okay. They're not. Consider yourself enlightened.

I already posted an idea in the past, 2 in fact that I like, that aren't cultural themed. Death Scythe and Blood Spear. Quick paste with some modifications:

Death Scythe Melee
An unorthodox weapon of deadly potential, this weapon works as a conduit of otherworldly energy that can rip foes' flesh asunder and eviscerate their souls. Similar to Claws, this set has the secondary effect that target recharge and endurance but rather than a discount this set gets a *penalty* because each attack will do more damage and have slightly longer range. This set is built to accommodate the needs of Tankers and Stalkers but is by no means unusable for Scrappers or Brutes.

Stalkers:
1. Sickle Slash (ST 9ft range, foe moderate lethal/neg energy dmg, fast rech)
A quick animating slash attack that gives the enemy a touch of the netherworld.
2. Death Stroke (ST 9ft range, foe high lethal/neg energy dmg, moderate rech)
A powerful and deadly stab with the pointed end of the scythe that penetrates the foe and injects them with the essence of the netherworld.
3. Reap (ST 12ft range 90 degree cone, foe moderate lethal/neg energy dmg, long rech, knockback *Special*)
A wide, sweeping horizontal slash with the scythe that will pull foes closer to you. There have been suggestions on how to handle 'knocktoward' and how I figure this would work is it would spawn a pet 5 ft behind the target that does radial KB to those within the cone's range. It'd end up knocking them closer to you.
4. Assassin's Harvest
5. Build Up
6. Placate
7. Fear Monger (Close Range Pet summon, *Special*, long rech)
Raise your scythe above your head and drive the sickle deep into the earth, creating a fissue that errupts with the searing screech of tortured souls. This effect may evoke fear into their weak hearts if they get within 15ft. A -8% ToHit debuff + a 45% chance of a mag 2 moderate duration fear (both fear and ToHit are slottable). This pet is targetable but not damageable.
8. Spiral Scythe (15ft PBAoE, Foe moderate Lethal/neg energy dmg, very long rech)
A swift spin of the scythe around the waist.
9. Guillotine (ST 9ft range, foe extreme lethal/neg energy dmg/mag 3 sleep, *Special*)
A devastating diagonal strike that is aimed to cut the foe's wind pipe, causing them to choke on the cold steel of your weapon. If a foe is defeated by this attack, the user is empowered by the departing soul, improving your resistance to all for a time.

Tanker/Scrap/Brute version actually has a Follow up debuff attack that gives a damage buff (no ToHit buff) and debuffs the target's resistance. This is replaced with Build Up for Stalkers which has the standard dmg/ToHit buffs. Assassin's Strike was replaced by a low dmg buff utility power that improved recovery per foe hit in a cone. Not something needed for Stalkers so it's an overall equally powerful set.


Blood Spear

Not just exclusively spear, but any polearm weapon excluding staves. But Blood Polearm doesn't sound as good. The set has several effects, including -res to lethal damage and innate longer range. It also has 1 combo type that can be performed 3 different ways.

Stalker:
1. Red Gash (ST 9ft rng, minor lethal dmg, foe –res vs lethal)
A swift thrust with the spear that pierces the foe’s armor causing them to bleed out.
2. Blood Stroke (ST 9ft rng, minor lethal DoT, foe –res vs lethal)
A slash, spin and thrust attack that will leave the enemy a bloody mess.
3. Crimson Sky (ST 9ft rng, moderate lethal dmg, foe knockup)
A strong and elegant upward thrust that sends the foe flying through the air.
4. Assassin's Pike
5. Build Up
6. Placate
7. Iron Stitch (ST 12ft rng, high lethal dmg, mag 2 immobilize)
A strong and heavy downward strike plus a thrust to keep the foe from moving while you impale them on your blade.
8. Gory Thrust (ST 15ft rng, superior lethal DoT, -res vs lethal)
Thrust the foe violently and continuously with your hungry weapon to quench its thirst for blood.
9. Rain of Spears (self teleport, 15ft PBAoE, superior lethal dmg, foe knockdown, mag 2 immobilize)
Leap up and fall down with a strong spear attack that strikes all within range, pinning them to the ground for a time as well as putting them on the floor.

Combos = Pierce Through (turns the last attack in the combo into a cone which damages and duplicates its secondary effect to all that it hits)

Stalker combos
-Assassin’s Point > Red Gash > Iron Stitch (end with 12ft 45 degree cone that immobilizes)
-Blood Stroke > Placate > Crimson Sky (ends with a 9ft 90 degree cone that knocks up with a 50% chance to AoE crit)
-Red Gash > Blood Stroke > Gory Thrust (ends with a 15ft 90 degree cone that does the highest dmg of the combos and debuffs resistance to lethal)

Notice that Build up is not in any of those combos and you've got a combo-free AoE tier 9. Without combos, it's a strong and fast ST set for all the melee ATs, probably eeking out even greater DPS than some sets due to the -res debuffing that improves the strength of the set. With the combos, you're looking at lots of cone damage that synergizes well with the longer range. Ultimately, though, the cones probably don't synergize as well with sets that use PBAoE buff/debuff/dmg toggles.

Ignorant player bigotry like this still exists?