Kinslayer_

A BIG THANKS TO THE TAUNT TEAM

Henke
Golden Golem
Dutch Barbarian
Silentium
Sara Aegis
C0rp0ral Punishment
Mister Volcano

And, of course, me as D-Zol

The new plan worked brilliantly and saved a lot of time on the Mito clearing

Great job Jiaozy for the Hammi defeat.

Post any HO's you want to swap here. I have the following to swap

ENHANCES TO HIT AND DEFENCE BUFFS, REDUCES END COST

Will take anything useful for a tank

[ QUOTE ]
soo. D-Zol is leader of taunt team right?

[/ QUOTE ]

I sure am.

Quick question someone may be able to answer. I've slotted my epic hold with 3 recharge reductions and 3 hold durations. Is accuracy not a factor?

EDIT: Ignore that, read about 3 posts ahead and found it answered.

[ QUOTE ]
You skip a lot of AoE's which are good in PvE, but either takes too much endurance, have too long an animation time or does bad single target damage.

Trollers who are pure PvP skip AoE holds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Remembered another one, blasters Nova attacks. Absoltuely useless in PvP but a god send in PvE

For the taunt team, I have a few names but I know what people are like with regards to saying they'll come then not turning up (yes, I am cynical), so I'll just do it on a first come, first served basis.

However, any under 50's I get will be replaced if a 50 turns up, purely to squeeze out that extra HP and I those with Epic holds and the vanguard accolade will also get priority.

Were to start!

There are some huge differences in PvP and PvE builds that will leave you at a disadvantage if playing one build in the wrong area.

Some general idea are that PvP builds need a lot more accuracy slotting, as players have a different % to hit chance to NPC's.

There are also several powers that are a lot more effective in PvP than they would be in PvE. TP foe for example is a great PvP move and tactics is pretty much a must as it will allow you to see stalkers.

People have called for us to be given two builds for each alt, one for PvP and one for PvE with the game automatically switching between them, allowing different pool choices and enhancement slotting, the downside being you'd need to buy twice as many SO's.

Unfortuantely, at the moment, you have to make a choice between building for PvP or PvE

Guys, just to let you know, I've requested that Bridger lock both my PvP threads.

It seems some people have decided to use them to launch attacks on me and my VG which have absolutely no facts to back them up.

A shame as I think they've been quite useful so far, especially the debates with Max as we have two different ideas on how things should be done and he has offered some ideas that I will be using. I do maintain that a good VG beating VG will not be a good SG beating VG as what works in CoV doesn't work against SG's so I will be creating this VG with the express purpose of beating SG's, rather than VG's.

Unfortunately, once threads desecnd into personal attacks, they only seem to descend into worse territory so I won't be posting in here or reading them anymore should Bridger decide not to lock them.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
hmm, a thing like this could actually make me wanna play CoV again...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. We should even considder making them on Union as it seems more active than defiant.

[/ QUOTE ]

You guys are gonna make some Union villains? I've been tempted recently to do that too. Maybe I'll join this little PvP venture when I get back online. Perhaps with a sonic/sonic corruptor, or another Haz-Mat guy

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I know for a fact that we do not have a sonic/sonic in the VG(TBH, I don't think they were even suggested as a possible PvP build as ice, rad and kin seem to be the ones everyone wants)

I'll be on tonight but will not be about until Monday after then so if you do get online, maybe contact Deluge or Stalk-obot on here by PM for an invite

Kinetsu,

This has already been discussed and is under way HERE

We already have some existing CoV PvP players rolling new alts in there, A lot of CoH PvP'ers and even a couple of Defiant server guys.

At the moment, nearly all these toons are less than a week old(though we do have a couple of older ones there that have never really been used)

The plan is to go PvE builds to lvl 24 just so we can get there ASAP then I will use my PvE VG to get us through the respec and we can start practising.

I really don't know where this feeling that it's not worth fighting heroes as they have a much easier time of it really comes from?

When I walk into any of the PvP zones with my hero, his accolades are disabled. The extra 10 levels in CoH are irrelevant as the auto exemp systems are in place, HO's are completely irrelevant as Hammi has only been defeated on Union a handful of times so you'll find VERY few hereos with even a single HO, let alone two.

CoH did have access to the arena a few months before CoV was released but I don't see how that should make them so much better. All findings prior to CoV being launched have been well publicised on forums and the info on what works and what doesn't is easy for anyone to find.

With regards to our recent defeats, you seem to have misinterpreted. We learned a hell of a lot from facing SG's, certainly more than we've learned from any of the VG's we've faced and it's for exactly this reason I'm trying to get this off the ground. How people on CoV expect to learn from beating the same minority of players over and over again, I really don't know. Those who have become dissillusioned with it have not given up PvP on the back of these defeats, we've just given up PvP with our mixed PvP/PvE VG and decided that a PvP only VG is the way we're going to really learn.

What i'm doing here is not finding excuses for continually losing to SG's but admitting there is very little being done to give VG's a chance as people on CoV seem content to just stick to PvP'ing in CoV.

Becoming a good PvP group in CoV is easy as you're playing against other CoV AT's that you know all the strengths and weaknesses of from discovering what did and didn't work for those AT's in your own VG. No one on CoV Union seems interested in actually going beyond CoV Union.

If we wanted to become known as good PvP'ers my whole VG could have gone the easy route and done one fo two things, only PvP within CoV or all just respec our lvl 50 Heroes for PvP and use them. We've chosen to actually do something completely different and try to get a CoV PvP VG capable of working together and giving CoH a run for it's money.

Maybe I have too much faith in people but I really expected the main PvP groups on CoV to be interested in this and want to help but all i've found is members of those VG's making comments on how it's going to fail, using the posts to push their own VG's on ego trips and make excuses as to why it will never work. The words 'comofrot zone' spring to mind.

It kind of says a lot for the innovation of PvP on CoV Union in that the people throwing their weight behind this and trying to get on board and help are largely made up of current non PvP players, CoH PvP'ers and even members of Defiant server. There hasn't been a single sniff of support or help from CoV Union PvP groups.

I know I'm ranting here but as a player from day one of CoH and seeing how Union server came together for events like the first European Hammidon takedown, how people who had never played together performed in S4 and now form the bedrock of our PvP coomunity on CoH, I just find the attitude to this whole project a little hard to swallow.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure what VG you're in, but I dont think we have ever been beaten by a VG. We only drawed against EVIL, but if they'd re-match us we'd surely set that straight. (which is why they wont :P)
Maybe there's a potential raid here?
I like your idea, but dont you think the 10 extra lvls, the epic power pools and the accolade powers help the heroes just a little? Not to mention stuff like HOs and a whole lot of additional time to lvl their toons.
While I think it's a cool idea, I dont think it's the only way to match the truly powerful SGs.
Now, when do WE get to raid you? :P

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, at the moment, interest in raids has plummeted for my VG with no one really interested due to recent raids.

Basically we've had 3 or 4 in a row against dedicated PvP SG's and everyone is sick of spening their time chain held by trollers or thrown all over the shop by storm defenders.

The end result is that people are so disillusioned that I think we'll need to leave it a while before trying to arrange another one.

On the SG v VG front, very few heroes on union have HO's, certainly not enough to make a difference and the extra 10 levels are irrelevant as we've been using all our lvl 40's against them and they're autoexemped to that lvl as well so there is no benefit.

The simple fact is that CoV has no equvalent of the storm storm set and it really is 'uber' at PvP. Also, Dominators just do not come close to matching up to controllers and Corruptors are the same with defenders.

Seeing as the vast majority of PvP raids are deicded by how efficient your support AT's are, it leaves CoV at a HUGE disadvantage until we can come up with proven methods to use the CoV advantages against the heroes.

VG v VG is all well and good as we know what does and doesn't work from the fact we're playing those AT's. the real key to being a good PvP is being able to take down CoH SG's but it semes a lot of the PvP groups aren't really interested in it.

One of the most shocking things I heard recently was one VG leader actually saying he would not PvP against VG X because they didn't want to get beaten! Surely this is the complete oppostie of what PvP is about?

I'd like to get all my beatings out of the way ASAP so I can try to adapt and find ways to counter them. Technically, I could say my VG is the best PvP one as we've never been beaten. In reality, that's because we've only fought a few battles and those have been against other VG's just learning as well so the whole idea of that mentality makes absolutely no sense.

I'm happy for us to lose, lose and lose again as we're trying to find ways around the CoH dominance. Once we start working out ways around it and winning the odd one or two, then we'll actually start caring about our results.

For me, the best PvP group is not decided by the one who wins the most but the one who wins the most against a variety of opposition. I really don't think we can even talk about the best PvP VG until one appears that can consistently beat both VG's AND SG's rather than just beat the same old limited group of VG's over and over again.

Well, both you guys are welcome to come on board. Especially as turning a 'Defianteer' is truly evil, muahahaha.

Imaginary, don't quite follow your comment on thermals. Are you saying they are a must for PvP? I know we don't have any currently so if they are useful, I'll need to get some of the members to roll one or two up.

Stage one of this plan, will be to go for PvE builds up until lvl 24, purely to get us there quickly.

We can arrange XP farming to get us there ASAP and as soon as we start hitting lvl 24, I can get us all through the respec. I've run the respec about 15 times with my main and have now got it down to just 40 minutes and can easily call on 3 other VG members to LK the 24's through it with the minimum of fuss.

Once we get the respec done, we can then respec into PvP builds and go from there.

[ QUOTE ]
Oh PLing, I want some of that.

Dont make anything but corrs and stalkers, you dont need anything else. Perhaps a dom or 2 for the toggle knocks and added control. And your good to go. For base raids if your attacking a stone brute or 2 might be nice to have to take the others alpha strike. But basicly in any PvP team you want about 3 people attacking and 5 people playing support of some way.
Bah I forgot about the MM using force bubble to create a disruption is buff and heals. But aside from that making alot of corrs is the way to go.
For an 8 person team, go something like 3 * spines stalkers for the main damage and 5 corrs for support. 1 Sonic, 1 Kin, 2 Thermals and 1 Cold. You cant really go wrong with a team like this, unless the corrs stop buffing and healing the team. Corrs are also increadible at spiking, so you should include that in your tactics.

Stone Brutes, MMs(force fielders) and doms are nice to have for support of that main team. Just remember doms dont work without alot of buffing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know we have a gap on the brute front and could do with a couple of granites. Other than that, we've pretty much gone as you've said with Corruptors and Dom's being the flavour of the day with a few sprinklings of Stalkers.

Build wise, Ice, Rad, Kin are the only ones being used so far for Corruptors and stalkers all seem to be Energy/Spines paired up with regen. On the Dom front, we are also a little light but gravity and ice seem to be the ones we have most of.

I'll work on getting a complete list of AT/Primary/Secondary and posting it here so we can see the 'Obvious PvP Uber Builds' that are missing.

[ QUOTE ]
Having done this TF with Death Rose already (this is the Air Pirate badge, yes? Anyway, I have done all 3 TFs with her...), I _highly_ recommend 1 or more Brutes for the final mission.

It is _hard_, will lead to much faceplanting, and it's damned hard to get the required turrets with squishies...although firing up Domination and then confusing some of the turrets is highly amusing

I wish you the best of luck anyway...

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong SF. The one you're talking about is the SG SF given from the mission computer. The Ice Mistral SF is the third and final 'general' SF in CoV and the contact is in the casino in St. Martial. Not to give too much away but it's about crystals.

There is only on AV encounter in it but you there are several Elite Bosses IIRC and once you've killed the first two or three you should be able to guess who the AV will be

Seen a few people commenting on the final AV and mentioning team face plants but I found the final encounter is actually VERY easy to do, it just depends how long you want to spend preparing for it before you engage the AV.

I don't want to give it away but if you want to know how to avoid the team wipe, send me a PM and I'll explain what triggers it and how to stop it triggering or lessen it's trigger enough for you to deal with.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
TBH, I expect MM's and Stalkers to be the most under represented AT's in a pure PvP VG.


[/ QUOTE ]

If your wanting a good PvP raid team MMs are really very good IMHO.

If nothing else as long as you have good computers you can lag your foes into submission .

Honestly though some MMs are deadly esp. in cramped areas.

Gorgog

[/ QUOTE ]

Gorgog, I'd be interested in catching up with you in game to discuss the use of MM's in raids. We've found them to be pretty much useless when attacking as they get face planted before they can set up pets and the only use we've found in defending is the use of the repulsion bubble to protect certain areas.

We must be doing something w wrong and I know our resident PvP MM, Hub, would be interested on swapping ideas. My global is @Kinslayer.

[ QUOTE ]
My G-O-D! did u just eliminate any possibility to success with this comment??? expect tons of PL-beggers and n00bs to join u, and demoralizing the PvP-VG

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually feel a little insulted by that comment. I've been running a VERY successful SG on CoH since day one. I know what a noob is, know what a PL beggar is and I'm really not that stupid. This will be a VG for PvP players who want to improve the Union CoV reputation as a whole, not their individual reputations or just to get PL'd. I expect very few 'new' players in and all the players who have joined so far are established PvP'ers known to me or someone else in the VG.

[ QUOTE ]
My own VG is the strongest PvP-VG on union, so it would be only for the reason to try and fight from the weaker team =P and have a fun thing to do, when my own VG dont need my attention.

[/ QUOTE ]

I want to try and be diplomatic here but it's EXACTLY that sort of logic that I think is holding Union CoV back. This is not about me wanting a great CoV PvP VG, in all honesty, I'd rather not lead it. This is about giving CoV Union a DEDICATED PvP VG as there seems to be a denial on CoV union that when it comes to PvP as a COMMUNITY we are failing miserably compared to our CoH equivalent and the French servers.

IMHO this all comes down to the fact that on CoV, we have PvE VG's with PvP players in as opposed to a dedicated PvP VG which ALL the servers PvP players contribute to.

Dr. Death, I'm really not sure if you're trying to goad me into a flame war but I'm trying to do something positive for the server here so I'd rather leave it at this with regards to the Violators and just accept you are completely against the idea and do not want to contribute as I don't think belittling or mocking each other's opinions really paints either of us in a good light.

Well,

PvP wise, Coh really seems to be where it's at. on the CoV side, I don't really think either server has done much to distinguish themselves.

That said, I'm in the process of trying to change that so you may want to take a look at my thread HERE

If you fancy joining us, send me a tell on @Kinslayer (BTW, we do seem to have openings for stone brutes if that influences your AT choice at all!)

[ QUOTE ]
not sure about the rest of u, but im keeping my PvP-toon in my VG.. why? baseraids duh..

seriusly.. its alot better using 'Union Leaders' for organizing events, such as raiding sirens.. and thoose bigger SGs thats not listed for Union Leaders, do so.. http://uk.boards.cityofheroes.com/sh...;Number=389191

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you may have a lot of PvP’ers but when you have raids scheduled can ALL of your PvP’ers make every raid every time? I’m guessing not as this is the problem my VG has been having. We have quite a few PvP’ers at the top end of the level range and they do try to get along to most raids but we have NEVER got a full 16 man raid team made up of PvP builds.

What seems to happen is that we get about 4 or 5 PvP builds and about 6-7 PvE ones. When coming up against a PvP specific SG like Art of War, it’s just not enough to leave us with anything like a remote chance. Not only that, when we rely on certain players for certain functions, if one of those does not make it, it leaves a hole in our tactics and we have to rely on PvE builds to fill that hole. This makes a huge difference to how effective we are, especially as those PvE players have to learn there and then what their equivalents in PvP should be doing in the team.

The CoH SG’s are a lot more cohesive than the CoV ones, with most of the dedicated PvP’ers on their working together in PvP specific SG’s, regardless of what SG they have their main PvE builds in and it really is noticeable.

Whenever I’ve come up against these PvP specific SG’s the one thing that has blown my socks off has been how well they work together. They have not just put together good PvP builds, but good PvP TEAMS. They have looked at things like damage caps, debuff caps and worked out how many of each build they need to reach those. They have drilled so often together with those same alts, over and over as a team ,they know exactly how to work together.

While my VG has some great PvP’ers, they have all built individual builds then team with them, rather than working out what builds are needed for the ideal team then building around that.

I understand a lot of Union Leaders are not going to back this idea as it’s going to be seen as a group ‘stealing’ PvP players and that’s unfortunate as that’s not what it is. Anyone who knows me will also know that I am doing this not ‘to earn a feather in my cap’ but to give Union CoV a real chance at pooling our talent. It’s also about having a chance at showing some of these CoH PvP groups what we can do, before eventually joining the International, server wide events that are currently being held on the test server. The only current PvP players I have taken from existing VG’s are from my own one. All of the remaining 10 or so members we’ve recruited so far are newly rolled level 1 alts and have been rolled after debating about what we need to round the team out.

To be perfectly honest, I would rather someone else actually ran with this as running my CoH SG and CoV VG is time consuming enough and I am also not up on PvP as I’m only just starting to level a PvP alt. However, I’ve done this because, quite simply, Union CoV’s showing in PvP against CoH has been embarrassing due to the lack of organisation we seem to have compared to CoH. I do not mean VG’s are unorganised individually, just that the PvP community as a whole does not seem to have collaborated in the way the CoH side has.

Also, I actually find the ‘Union Leaders’ channel restrictive in organising raids as I only found out a few weeks ago that it is not in fact ‘Union Leaders’ but ‘CoV leaders’ only. We know how to fight against other VG’s and know the weaknesses and strengths In their builds as we’ve been playing villain builds, we’ve not lost against other VG’s in the raid stakes (though we have had a few 1-1 draws as it’s so tough to defend). Where my VG are falling over is against the big CoH SG’s for all the reasons above so I’ve stopped using Union Leaders for raid purposes.

To be honest, I’m in coalition with most of the VG’s who’s leaders I would want to speak to and I’d much rather have a joint CoH/CoV leaders channel so we can actually organise things like Villain/Hero PvP nights rather than just villain/villain ones.

It does seem that quite a lot of people do not seem to grasp what I’m trying to achieve here and that’s a real shame. I know we have the players on CoV to give CoH and the other servers a run for their money but their does seem a definite resistance to actually working together to make it happen. A lot of VG’s seem to think along the lines of ‘we have PvP players and do very well’. As opposed to looking at it and seeing how we are actually underachieving compared to CoH and the other servers. I’ll end here and just leave you with a few points

- We’ve had NO success with VG’s in the international PvP nights running on the test servers
- We’ve had little success OVERALL against CoH in terms of raids and SG/VG arena battles
- We have had success in small team battles and one on ones but until we get organised as a server, I think that’ll be it and looking at the way the French SG’s and Defiant SG’s are performing by working as communities, I think it will stay that way.

I’m glad I’ve got the people on board with this idea that I have as they’re determined to make it work but I have been surprised at the amount of people who don’t seem to want to improve Union CoV’s overall PvP reputation as a server, rather than individual reputations.

This has been discussed in a thread HERE but it is now going ahead so thought I would publicise it here.

Basically, I'm trying to get all the VG leaders on board with this, to create a dedicated PvP group for Union server. The reson behind this? Simple.

At the moment, we seem to have lots of PvP players, but all scattered across different VG's. So, this new VG will be PvP builds only. that way, people can keep their main PvE alts in their current VG's and just have a PvP alt in this one.

The good news, we've been given a dead VG to use, with a fully functioning base. A lot of my VG and coalition VG's have already rolled PvP toons for it as well.

If you have any questions, post here, PM me or catch me in game on @Kinslayer

OK, the Union PvP specific VG is now set up!

If you have a PvP alt, please consider joining us as this is a server wide effort. the idea is that people stay with their main Vg and just put a PvP specific alt in here.

We can PL these lats up, work on tactics, run test raids etc.

I've got a lot of the CoH 1 AT SG's on board already along with Last Line Of Defence, New Blood Rebellion and a few of the CoV VG's.

I'm also going to talk to Art of War and see if any of those are interested in helping the project

All done.

Very good turn out and ran two teams. First team done it in 48 minutes with only 2 deaths, none on the last mission.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sounds good, I take it there will be a majority of Stalkers?

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably not, surprisingly. What I've found is that while stalkers were having the word NERF shouted at them in PvP from day one, it's happening a lot less now and they're becoming less and less effective.

They are a one trick pony and once you know that trick, it's easy to counteract. Give me some ice doms to lay ice patch down and stop the stalker getting close or a couple of members with Tactics pool to increase perception anytime!

TBH, I expect MM's and Stalkers to be the most under represented AT's in a pure PvP VG.

Gravity Doms, Ice/Rad/Kin Corruptors seem to be the ones in CoV that make the difference. 2 or 3 ice corrutpors will make those melee fighter near useless as they stack the AoE slow toggles on them and leave them practising their 'Baywatch slow motion running' while the rest of the team annihilates them

[/ QUOTE ]

Stalkers are dead weight in base raids due to the defenses IMO also

on that note Union Kinetique reporting for duty

[/ QUOTE ]

I find stalkers quite useful and in capable hands a real handful. Anway moving on I feel the biggest problem you face is loyalty. Whilst I love to be part of a pure pvp sg I dont feel its really viable as I cant see many people leaving there existing sgs. I feel it be more viable when people have hit the level cap (50) and are not really needed for prestige (as well as taking up valuable space).

Anyway look forward to the chats on union leaders about plans etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry if it wasn't clear Max but I wasn't expecting people to leave their current VG's. I expected the majority of members would be second alts of PvE players who ALSO want to PvP(though any PvP only players would be welcome)

By getting PvE players in, it gives us plenty of chances for inf injections to bankroll SO's etc by using our mains. That way, we can also have a reasonable group of alt's to help PL us.

I for one will still be playing all my PvE alts in their current SG/Vg's and this Vg will just have my pure PvP alt in it.

the reasoning behind this is that there don't really seem to be any dedcated PvP VG's like there are SG's.

I've already 'inherited' a functioning base from a dead VG and got about 7 dedicated PvP'ers in already and got about 4 or 5 others who are going to roll a PvP alt for this group over the weekend.

A couple of my VG need this so i'm running one if people need it. My global is @kinslayer.

I've done them plenty of times and it takes an hour tops

With the idea under discussion HERE, a global channel would really help me contact those who may be able to help get this up and running.