Hatesman_EU

Seeing as how well things went last time I textualised (sounds dirty) my City of Heroes/Villains thinking process (or, waking life as I've come to know it) I ponder if I share a similar problem with other fellow Roleplayers who've perhaps made a character who doesn't fit in anywhere else. This time we're talking strictly Heroes.

Here's a list of things which might prevent a given character joining a conventional Super-Group:

- Too Powerful
- Too Wise
- Too Crazy
- Too Renegade
- Too Neutral
- Too Inconsistent
- Too Hideous
- Not Human Enough
- Nomadic Natured etc.

My main character from Defiant (recently Server Transferred) is very much like this, I constructed a perfect hero in my naivity, and as a result he's too good to Role-Play with and requires so much mystique to hide his true identity that it's a lot of hassle or reworking to fit him into another group out there. I absolutely love the guy, but I hate to use him because he can pretty much do anything he wants to do (except Super-Strength) and would totally god-mod other Role-Players.

So, he's lived most of his Union life in a filler SG, I always wanted to join him to the Militia, but he wouldn't fit in there. Last night I re-registered his SG as "The Nomads" which I was surprised wasn't taken, and with that name I have an idea.

Would anyone be interested in an SG for such characters? Quite literally the high-and-mighty who feel their presence elsewhere is something of a burden... or simply don't fit in with other Humans too well. Instead turning to an organisation based on these people who know and understand the burdens of immortality, immeasurable power or immense wealth (the reclusive Bruce Wayne type). I mean even just being unable to fit in anywhere else would warrant membership, true Nomads would be welcomed should they fit in, they don't have to be able to bench-press mountains.

I originally had these guys called "The Offworlders" or "The Outsiders" so I was thinking they could have a Space-Ship for their Super-Group base too, perhaps fighting threats Offworld, away from the Planet Earth, true Nomads of the Galaxy.

I was thinking it would be very much against God-Modding and such play, it wouldn't be a place for people to come in and say "Look at me I'm the Greatest Ever!!!" and more focused on a society of socialite Philosophers from all walks of life, who just so happen to have a trait that makes them an Outsider and a Savior.

What do you think? It's a very sketchy idea at the moment, so I wanted to find out if people had these "Nomads" and wanted to Role-Play them more often.

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I like being able to meet your opposites, but it's a pretty big thing to RP someone else's toon.. It requires total insight in the persona and understanding of how they think, act, react and all that.

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I don't agree with that. After-all, Praetorian versions of a character would be different people, you would at most need a very good understanding of the characters history and motivations. Then the missing information can be extrapolated and improvised by a good Role Player. Unless you want your character to be portrayed perfectly as you portray them of course, in which case you should probably play them because no one else is going to recreate that perfectly.

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I know it may not fit your idea of it, but I like it for several reasons:
a) the main one being i dont enjoy villains really. Simple as that.
b) i didnt want to make an energy brute, energy stalker or an AR corruptor. I have 2 evil clones already, one is an energy brute, one an energy stalker, so i've done that path. Dont want an AR corruptor, as iv done AR for 50 levels, im not bored of it, just cant stand not having all my powers - nothing new to look forward to.
c) Wanted a tank, never played one. Energy/willpower looked, and is, great fun.

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Okay Infinitron all good points, but then why are you here if you don't want to make a villain? You're not going to be able to play with the other Praetorians if you just make a Hero, so what's the point in that? (What I think FFM was trying to say.)

It's just a fact, if you want to make an alternate version of your hero... as a hero... you'll have to play with a group seperate from this one, because it's impossible to play together. If you've done the dark clone story, then this maybe isn't for you?

The problem I've had with remaking my Heroes as Villains is that I'm already bored with their Power-Set choice and I want to change them radically so that I can find something I actually want to play. (Which resulted in "Mirrorverse" which promotes people to remake their characters as polar opposites.)

Swapping characters would fix that nicely.

We're really getting to something important here... Excellent points.

Mechano, what you said about your Insomnia and how that lets you empathise with your characters unhinged nature... It's easier for you to play him, because he is an extension of yourself and what you go through. Okay... it looks like I'm calling you crazy, but you know what I'm saying.

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For me it's all about character developement, good or bad, and to tell an enjoyable story.
And I don't mean enjoyable as in happy-happy-joy-joy-everybody-wins either. One of my own most memorable experiences during my many years as a roleplayer, involved the death of my longtime character. As long as it's not just a random death caused by a bad dice roll (yes, P&P RP) but rather an essential part of the story, it might be the hight of satisfaction really.

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Maybe good role-play will need to include this element that characters should be eligible for change. Your Straight-Talking Vigilante might have to cool his tone because s/he is talking to someone who can kill her or him... Your megalomaniac, if caught will be sent to jail.

(That'd certainly help put difficult characters on the back-burner for a while.)

In the primordial soup of Role-Play... in Dungeons and Dragons for example, good characters lived because they wanted to live, they were more alive because they knew they could die...

Hmm. Maybe the MMO Respawn system is somewhat to blame also? Characters have an invulnerability aspect that makes them act differently...

If Pocket D was a bar with "Violence Turn On", the situation would be a heck of a lot more different, it'd be more real. With "Violence Turn Off" in most cases, Super-Powered beings are reduced to low level, menial interactions. Hatesman certainly see's Pocket D as a pointless endeavour because he can't kill anyone if they diss him. Y'know? Heh heh, that sounds really bad, but it's how I as a player have to play him. That's a big problem for me. Even if he could kill them though, they'd just Respawn.

So is an answer to make things more realistic? (I certainly think so.)

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Maybe it's because I'm not a good roleplayer, I dunno, but I can (usually) easily RP without getting affected, even in the long run. It IS just a game and no worse than pretending real life. Just like Netherwitch said, Anthony Hopkins doesn't take any damage from playing Hannibal even though he did it a lot during the making of the movie, so why should we?

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No that definately makes you a good Role-Player.

Although I'd agree with Big Lunk here, that Tony is following a script, and more importantly, he's probably breaking character every so often. I realise that doesn't t happen in plays, but in movies they're acting single scenes over and over again and then taking a break in between while cameras are re-setup or the location is changed. Anthony Hopkins following a script isn't the same as Role-Playing in an Online Game, BUT it certainly seems akin to it.

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Otherwise why would they do it, unless they have a mental condition?

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That may have been the sentence to hit on my problem with Hatesman. He's actually crazy, and doesn't justify his antics, he knows he's bad and is constantly scorned by his inner dialogue with his "Soul", "Mr. Hyde" or "The Void" as he calls it.

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Just my rambling two cents while I am, admittedly... drunk.

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Then your insight is probably the most scientifically accurate Mister Drunk Actor.

So,

As far as I can tell so far, you need three things to Role-Play a Villain well.

1. The Actors complicated emotional disconnection technique whereby you can become the character but not be affected by the long term effects of their emotions.
2. A character that is endearing(?) to you and as a bonus to the community...
3. l33t skillz

Of these three, I have only one and that's entirely up for debate, can you guess which it is? No don't I'll cry.

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Hope no one is horribly uncomfortable now!

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I'm not uncomfortable. I just can't help picturing you like this at the moment.

<_<

>_>

...What?

What the hell is it with City of Heroes Lore?!

I mean, parts of it are missing hugely important aspects... but something like this that would be useful for RP has a clear statement that fun can't happen.

I say we (our Praetorian Heroes) storm the Praetorian's hide-out in defiance, taking the technology for our own! That'll show em to keep that [censored] to themselves.

Personally, I'd like to play someone who is reasonably famous, if we are going to swap characters. Otherwise I have a pretty well fleshed out idea for GhostSpy.

Quick thought... maybe the opposing Villains/Heroes could be played by different players... That way the two can meet on the battlefield.

Think about it, because I can see it dismissed as an impossibility. I know it'd take a lot of consent, but we're not monsters and we're not going to willfully destroy another persons character. It'd involve respect and would provide insight into the mindset of the original character for the second player.

Lol, I'm equally confused. Isn't it obvious?

Anyway...

This is an idea I love. I started a thread on the Militia forums called Mirrorverse which is the exact same thing, only all our Mirrorverse (Praetorian) characters are located on Defiant at the moment.

http://themilitia.org.uk/viewtopic.php?t=153

Unfortunately the Militia Forum PHAILED and lost my introduction thread... Furthermore, Crimson didn't write all those, he saved and reposted them, blessed be his intervention.

I don't have a point right now, but I'm interested.

Hooray for insightful discussion!

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He's not too much of a drain on my emotions, though I will freely acknowledge that he is a drain on them, but only when I actually let his utterly sadistic side out.

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Oh, definately. It's not like all the time is the issue, it's only when Overdrive mode is active and the Villain you're playing is really going for it... For Hatesman that's supposed to happen all the time, he's supposed to be the "Avatar of Hate".

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But when I ever played an evil character, the instant I logged on I thought like that character completely - right up to the point I switched off the game. I guess for me with a background in dramatics it's not so difficult to do, but it's not a skill everyone has.

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Indeed, such deep character empathisation is the problem. So how do you do it when you have dramatics heritage?

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The big problem with 'take over the world' plots, (again this is just my opinion so take it at face value) is that due to them affecting the entire world, and as such it's the responsibility of any hero trying to stop said plot to warn the world. Once the warning has gone out about a global threat every civic minded hero would leap to help (great so far, mass participation while still leaving people with the option to leave it alone if they choose) So lets see a GM come up with a plot that can hold up against such an insanely vast collection of abilities. Now factor in all those villainous types that would also seek to stop said wold domination plot, if only to later try something similar them selves.

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Great point. It's practically impossible to run this type of plot when it's open to anyone. Even someone like my hero GhostSpy who's a relatively low-powered hero could foil nearly any plot in a bunker by simply walking through its walls... With even a handful of the cities heroes you may well have not only one person who can mess up a plot by being too good, but probably a whole team of them.

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again this is just my opinion so take it at face value

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Always do, there's no need to be apologetic about opinions, that's all we have in good conversation.

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We don't hunt people, we hunt creatures (albeit some are sentient, we have yet to kill any 'good' creatures) and we do it for money, now because we enjoy inflicting pain on others or killing for fun (well, I guess I don't know if some of us does, but that's beside the point), we kill for cash. It's just a job, like any other, and not evil 'per say'. At least not megalomaniac-ish evil.

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The Hyenas debate touches on something that hasn't been mentioned yet, which is quite important. Namely everyone has their own Moral Code, so for one person hunting an Animal is a part of life, for another person, hunting an Animal is the same as hunting a close member of family. In the same way this conflicts of many different Moral Codes can make it very difficult to portray evil in a way that will engage people. -- 'Course that of moral codes is a very deep and windy subject.

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Now, it's said that you can't RP unless you're at least a nice guy(ish).

So, how do those that want to play the evil, nasty bad guy do it?
Thoughts, suggestions, heralding from the good old days?


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It seems like the answer would be "in short bursts"... While this doesn't fit well with Massively Multiplayer Game style, it does fit the existing patterns and seems to be the case.

The question is, how do you play them for an extended period of time? Make them your main character? Is it actually possible to play Chaotic Evil as a main character? Apparently it is. So what's the answer?

I have a theory about Roleplaying Villains and I'd like to share it for discussion...

I think I've finally figured out what it is that makes good Villains so hard to play for extended periods of time. Forgive me if I'm slow in figuring this out, or if this has already been discussed.

Okay, so, in order to Roleplay well, you essentially have to do some Method Acting, infact that's what MMORP is, it's online Method Acting. Now it's known in the acting business that 'you cannot make three gestures of a given emotion without beginning to feel it yourself'. -- This is something that had never dawned on me before.

Therefore it's only common sense to say that a whole constantly evolving and unscripted scene of pure malevolence is going to make a good person begin to feel bad in themselves. Suddenly we've got a situation where we're using entertainment to make ourselves feel worse than when we started.

On a side note I think this could be the reason why Villain game content is so similar to Hero content (even if it was a subconcious decision.) Players still need to feel good about what they're doing, for any extended period of time, like when playing an MMO, they -- unless they're robots -- should generally be getting a good kick out of what they're doing. Thus, the villain has become a Dark Hero Protagonist in our game, they still tend to do good things even if they are for selfish ends. For example, you can't hurt citizens in Mayhem Missions, you are encouraged to help Arachnos control the Rogue Isles and the Power Transfer System is rescued in the first Strike Force.

So this may be why the most popular villain Archetype in RP are Assassins and Merecenaries as opposed to Megalomaniacs and Psychopaths. There's a level of assertion made on the players part -- be it conciously or subconciously -- to choose a character that makes them feel good to play. Playing a Psychopathic/Sociopathic/Megalomaniacle character (in my opinion the best type of villain) is too taxing and the psyche can't take much RP in this style before it begins to affect the player.

What is probably even worse is that truly evil Villains are recieved and interact negatively in social situations. This is the worst part for the human ego, as it means that while method acting a villain for the entertainment of another player, the scorn fired at their character may decend upon the player, creating an uncomfortable-in-large-doses situation where the player will begin to feel as socially unnacceptible as their character.

It's why, when I play as the Hatesman, I can never do it for too long, and he always seems to come off as a lesser version of his written form. The last time I really Role-Played the man who is pure Hate, I -- or rather 'we' -- ended up on a plateau of neutrality and indecision. With this sociopath just 'Meh-ing' through scenes as I was trying to avoid acted confrontation, that the Hatesman would have openly embraced. I think this personal revelation explains a lot about my own Role-Play habits and that of the community at large.

What do you think? Do you Agree, Disagree or have your own theory?

Thanks for reading my idea-dump.


P.S.
If anyone's too lazy to read the above, here's a recap;

Role Play = Method Acting = Character Empathy = Villains Make Us Teh Sad?

RP + Pizza = ?????????

Why don't you pick Monday as the Fourth Wall Night (that's Militia Night too) and see how that goes. If it's not very lively, move it over to Tuesday and continue through the nights to see if any one night is better than the others.

People do have unconcious patterns of behaviour that will mean one night will be more popular than the others (I'd hazard to guess that Wednesday has become popular because it's the middle day and furthest from the weekends) so it's about figuring out which is best for the Fourth Wall.

If you're recruiting volunteers to help rebirth the Wall, I shall raise my hand. The ideas really grown on me now.

It's unlikely this'll come along as anything other than an Issue of it's own.

Apparently it must be a lot of work, because the community has been asking for an upgrade to the unfinished system since it came out, but we haven't gotten it yet.

Expect it when they get around to fixing the Cathedral of Pain and Items of Power that were oh-so-good in City of Villains Beta.

In other words, don't hold your breath, because we won't be getting it for Christmas, or probably any time soon.

There has to be a good gag or two in this idea somewhere.... Calculating exact location now.

And, I assume the characters have to appear, in character, as themselves... wearing someone elses costume, right? At first it doesn't seem the kind of thing a Sociopath Megalomaniac would do, but on closer inspection it seems EXACTLY the kind of thing a Sociopath Megalomaniac would do in the Golden Age.

Quite simply the ULTIMATE PUNISHMENT.

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Jan 30/31 seems a bit late for a festive, christmas / new year's type party don't you think?

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I tend to agree. Why so late in the Month?

That was pure blissful CoX entertainment. I feel I need to master the art of Demo-Editing and Video Capture.

Very nicely done indeed. Loved the song already, and it's mindless tone fits Badge Hunting too. Wandering around with a glazed expression mumbling 'Must kill more bosses.' semi-coherently.

It's pretty safe to assume that anything on these boards is based in Union. Defiant is RP Deficient.

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I want you, yes you

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Why me?

Your anecdote is so true. Plus, the Crystal Maze involved a bald crazy Super-Villain who had a Crystal based Puzzle fetish. It fits so well!

So, can I assume that you could join the club without being in the SG? Because GhostSpy would like a membership card but he's a Militia member already. Artifacts are his speciality, and I'm quite fond of PvP myself. So this all sounds like a good idea.

((I've been itching to write a fight for ages, but they can be a nightmare to do, so I'm really humbled that lots of people enjoyed it! Thanks to everyone who's read it and thanks to Netherwitch for the support, inspiration and fur covered punch bag. I think it's safe to assume the RP Roundtable was a really good idea. Rock on my friends.))

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Because it would seem that the IC lore points towards a world where Heroes are allowed to kill.

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Whilst I agree with most of your points, on this one I cannot. Almost the entire hero side of the game tells you that you arrest, not kill. There are one or two missions where people die, yes; but in 99.9% of the hero game, you are not killing nor does it tell you that you are.

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Heh heh, always a difficult subject where there's missing information from the game creators. I guess this point is like so many RP points, in that it's completely down to interpretation. I certainly agree, the game never tells you you're killing. But that's been attributed to stuff like Real World Laws and restrictions and what not on the games development. The way I see it there's no way a world can be a No-Kill Zone for heroes that use Assault-Rifles/Flame-Throwers, Katana's, Grenades, Broadswords, Shuriken etc. Most of these weapons send chunks of vital organs spraying across the room. Even the "Normal" powers are up for speculation depending on your perception of what they can do... Radiation, Fire, and Energy Blasts are obvious examples of powers that kill and seriously injure. Not to mention, if someone who could dent a brick wall with a punch, hit you in the face, your head might just explode a little. Sure you can apply Comic Book Physics to the world. But some people will always hunger for realism, and consequences.


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Please don't take this as a dig... I would like to better understand.
On the other hand, I realise the answer to my "why" question is probably just "because".

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Well I'm happy to have a go...

Like, yeah, just... Because... Uh... >_> Yeaaah. Pretty much. <_<



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Plus, the whole point of doing it secretly, is because Killing is wrong and the characters don't want to be hunted by angry Heroes, by giving them a bad name, or generally breaking the law infront of them. These guys aren't Villains. They're Heroes who take the lives of those who don't deserve to live.

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The highlighted part is why I don't really get it...
If it's secret, why find people to tell it to?

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Well for me, I've played a Vigilante Character for a while now, he uses an array of Super-Powers and a Katana, that is used to end the lives of the unworthy. He's able to melt through walls so he doesn't have to face the consequences of his actions... I can tell you, coming into Pocket D with just a look on your expressionless face that says "you'll never guess what I've been doing" gets old real quickly.

A team of these people however... Hmmm, I have a feeling the bonding between individuals will be pretty extreme. Either they'll devour each other, or form together as a Band of Brothers and Sisters. Either way I think it'll be more interesting than telling no one.


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The way I see it (in my probably limited imagination on this subject) is that you go about your business and keep that underlaying thought in mind, add some near slip of the tongues, perhaps...

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I guess... but it'd be a more of a challenge to let none of it slip, and have the outside Characters decieved entirely as to the true nature of the organisation.

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I don't understand the interest in a group that has similar ideas about this one subject

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I'm sure you understand better than most people that In Character Roleplaying is an extension of the Escapism we get from playing RPG's. That escapism varies from person to person.

Me? I love playing my Anti-Hero because it's a deeply rewarding way to get inside the mind of a seriously messed up person. It makes me remember that Human's are inherently Good, and it's the actions and situations forced upon them that turn them into Monsters. Check out Xirogh's Wiki at a later date for what I mean by that.

I also love exploring the social stigma involved, both IC and OOC. Because it would seem that the IC lore points towards a world where Heroes are allowed to kill. But Roleplayers see it making more sense that Killing is inherently wrong and gets people sent to jail if they do it. I personally agree with that entirely, and I don't play my character for the cheap thrill of putting a bullet to an Outcasts head. I play him for the Escapism, to do things I would only ever dream of doing in real life, to get to know myself and people like the characters I've created.

I think there's also the added layer about the popularity of Action Movies and shows like 24, even the Spiderman movies. The sense of having to do such an incredibly hard job... killing people who would seek to kill thousands if not millions were they left to their own devices. Resulting in a "By Any Means Necessary" attitude, the ultimate battle - the Fight to the Death.

Plus, the whole point of doing it secretly, is because Killing is wrong and the characters don't want to be hunted by angry Heroes, by giving them a bad name, or generally breaking the law infront of them. These guys aren't Villains. They're Heroes who take the lives of those who don't deserve to live.


Question to Netherwitch and Tyger

I just wanted to ask Netherwitch and Tyger something. Do you guys have two groups or are you working together? Tyger was telling me about his idea last night on the Militia channel, and I'm wondering if the two groups are the same?

((It's a shame Ghostwind isn't a real Ghost, I was excited to find an Undead Nemesis for GhostSpy for a second.

Unless you're interested in having Spooks on your case?

Either way, despite not knowing you... Welcome back! The game has indeed matured a little since Issue 7. ^_^ Only a little though.))

((Kinda slowed to a hault now... This is a shame, I was really looking forwards to playing out this topic. All your A.I's are great.))