Hai Jinx
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Posts
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Joined
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(warning trace sarcasm ahead)
A fun bit of Conspiracy Theory ---
The Devs through the implementation of IOs and some other recent choices have Made Defense the premier method by which the majority players get Mitigation. Especially the IO crowd.
With more and more characters using mainly Defense ...
It makes it that much easier to alter the difficulty of the game.
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All you have to do is make your new baddies have "to hit" bonuses .. or higher base to hit .. or Autohit powers .. defense debuffs ...
And suddenly "All these new groups are hard!"
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So the question isn't
"Which came first the perma elude chicken or the +3% defense Egg?"
--- Its actually whether or not the evolution was intelligent design. -
I was not saying /SR's are not good.
Just that Set bonuses are skewed towards raising defense. Allowing other sets which normally wouldn't have high defenses to benefit disproportionately.
For whatever reason the Devs made it possible to get +25% defense from IO sets but not +25% resist or +500% regen.
Which I believe is pretty similar to Arana's point.
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I primarily play MA/SR -softcapped, with the healing uniques and all that stuff. And my survivability is very good. I am not actually complaining.
But it sure isn't the same as a WP who can copy my best trick, soft capped defenses. -
Quote:No slouch, no - But it is not the same thing. It just doesn't get as much total benefit from IOs in those extreme builds.Originally Posted by Werner
For "Regen", you add either Siphon Life or Aid Self. For resistance, you stack Tough with the scaling resistances. Not much, you say?
I think people underestimate just how much mitigation the scaling damage resistance can provide. I was doing survivability tests at different levels of defense on my DM/SR about a week ago, and I could hang out with frequent blinking red with an average of maybe 40% resistance for ten minutes or more and the spawn might never put me down. They weren't smashing/lethal, but if they were, add Tough on top of that. You may not see that much resistance very often, but you may also find your Super Reflexes ridiculously hard to kill in normal spawns even if you THINK you're about to go down. For that matter, it sometimes works out that way in really nasty spawns. That's pretty much what happened when I took on Manticore Automaton as an AV and near the aggro cap of Nemesis.
OK, yes, a soft-capped Dark Melee/Invuln and a number of other combinations can be even better. But Super Reflexes is no slouch. (Edit: Plus easy 95% defense debuff resistance. Tasty.)
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Aid Self is great but due to the interrupt it is weakest when you need it the most (something getting through your defense) - its no Dull Pain, and definitely no Rise to the Challenge.
Tough is pretty good but 17% + scaling is not the same ball park as what Invul or WP gets
But unless the baddies debuff defense, WP or Invul can get pretty much "the same thing" as an SR and more goodies besides.
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But sure - against the right(most) groups - a softcapped /SR is basically insanely powerful defensively. -
I think the problem with softcapping /SR is you can not add competitive amounts of Regen or Resist to the build.
In that a WP or Invul gets the same benefit from 45% defense as /SR does in most situations.
Too bad you cant get an easily debuffed 50% S/L resist or 500% regen on an /SR. -
By definition if you increase the damage you can survive indefinitely you also increase the damage sustainable finitely.
So if bunny has an actual complaint in this it must be with the actual "immortality" model that is in use.
The rest just reads to me like posturing. -
Quote:You say this a lot - yet "their" mathematics and "yours" are entirely related.Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
I would advise you look at my thread on "The Defence Myth". The mathematics in this thread is appalling, and what I have written there quite succintly answers a very key problem that yourself and Werner are struggling with.
My calculus is a bit rusty but with some googling to remind me - the reason they are related becomes clear enough
Some DPM number / Defense number = Damage regen vs Defense value breakpoint
Or 402/x
Or essentially 1/x
The Derivative of ...
1/x = -1/x^2
And there is the curve. -
Actually I was referring to the curve you would get if you plot this
Damage/defense
Since we were talking the 402/.16 = 2512.5
Which was the solution of Bunny's equation.
(or 421 same difference for the curve)
That looks like this
Defense,"Breakpoint"
45,893
40,1005
35,1148
30,1340
25,1608
20,2010
15,2680
10,4020
5,8040
That is the curve that I believe correlates strongly to your survivability model.
We used to have an ascii graphing program at Ford, would come in handy now .. lol. Or Ill need to upload the excel one somewhere .. bla -
Quote:The curves are the same. Plot it.Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
The problem is that his curve in no way allows him to answer the original question.
You mean it doesn't give the actual number. That is true, but that's just arithmetic. The mathematical relationship is what is really interesting.
I think it is cool that Werner has taken data that shares the shape of the predicted curve. -
hmm cant figure out how to upload images.
ironic considering the function of:
Damage/defense .... Looks exactly like Werner's survivability curve
While Arcana's defense plot is linear. Which is actually the direct mitigation line.
So the answer given earlier for 402/0.16 = 2512.5 DPM
Is actually a survivability number and comes off a deeply curved line. And apparently .. fits Werner's observed trend.
So .. Bunny and Werner's math is actually pretty much describing the same thing. -
thinking on it - it is going to be a curve not a straight line.
Look at the soft cap
If we say only 50% of the original damage gets through due to minion accuracy
And then we claim that 45% of THAT damage gets mitigated by defense-
The the softcap wouldn't mitigate 95% of all damage. it would only mitigate
(using 1000 to save me algebra)
1000 damage /2 = 500 damage * 45% = 225 damage
225 out of 1000 is only 77.5% of the damage.
Anyone who had played at the softcap knows you aren't getting hit 22% of the time. -
Looking up Aranaville's defense guide - Werner's curve might be the correct one.
Your equation which was basically Damage/defense, was really Damage/chance to miss
But a 16% defense doesn't result in a 16% chance to miss, at least not according to that guide.
"Base to hit formula is:
NetToHit=Accuracy*(base to hit-defense) "
Which should make the Base to Miss the reciprocal of above and not the defense number.
Or 1/accuracy*(base to hit-defense) -
Quote:Actually the 4th Post (Shred Monkey's) and the 7th Post are the same equation. Later posts Bunny made use other comparisons. Maybe you meant the 17th post.Originally Posted by Umbral
I saw bad math in the 7th post and just had to facepalm. You know it's bad when I'm too ashamed of someone's stupidity to call them out on it.
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Werner's data suggests however that the linear relationship they described isn't what actually happens. (although its pretty close for 16%)
That curve says there is more happening than damage/defense, otherwise it would be the green line more or less.
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As to Bunny's personal attack's they really don't predict anything in particular, I am unsure why they were included in those posts. -
Taking this a bit further -
for any given level of defense ...
and any given level of regeneration ...
There will be a incoming damage intersection point. Below which the regeneration will always mitigate more damage, above which the defense will always mitigate more.
So there is a point where 402 hp/m will exceed even the defense soft cap for mitigation. (893.3 Incoming DPM actually). -
I thought it was changed from 5 feet to 7 feet
Not 7 to 10 -
following Bunny's math/argument then the answer to the OP's question is:
The Defense is better as long as the incoming damage is more than 402/0.16= 2512.5 hp per minute, if it is less the Regen will mitigate more damage.
with of course two added caveats -- as earlier posters mentioned -- that the damage has a smashing and or lethal component, if it doesnt the regen wins.
and that you do not care about additional secondary effects you will suffer using regen instead of defense mitigation. If you do care, the defense wins. -
No longer tight
When I did my respec, I found I basically had 1 more pick than I needed.
I ended up choosing Eagle's claw - although what I am going to do with that slow-poke power I have no Idea.
Maybe a finishing move. -
one possibility would be to allow people to pick from 2 APP/Patron Pools
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I think Thunder Kick gets a bad rap
If you only have SO's, you won't have enough Global recharge to spam 3 high recharge attacks plus storm kick
Thunder Kick animates very quickly, and it has low recharge. Thus on SOs it will allow you to keep attacking without big pauses.
Maybe its personal preference but I hate sitting around getting the BAAAM BAMMM BAAM that you haven't recharged yet. -
That statement would have hurt me, but my forcefield deflected it.
Oh wait .. I only had the Corruptor version which doesn't exist.
Oh well maybe I will need that empath after all. Or pain in this case.
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Side question: Does it hurt when a /pain type heals you? -
those defender "look at my set!" threads are actually pretty funny to watch.
kinda like "my dad can fix boo-boos better than your dad" -
Of course ... we'd probably be more likely to get something like the following --
Fighting - Headbutt: an attack, that does slightly more damage than Boxing, that stuns the attacker (100% chance unresistable) and the sometimes the defender (10% chance, resistible mag1)
Flight - Zone Flight: Like group flight but the whole zone gets in on the fun!
Concealment - Even mo' Invisible: like invisibility cept even mo'so.
Leaping: Group Leap: The whole team can now superjump as long as they are within 60 feet of the caster, if they stray out of the range, they immediately fall.
Presence: Placate: like the stalker power, only not as good.
Medicine: Self Rez: Follows the pattern Aid other - aid self - res other - ...
Speed: Group Speed: The whole team can now run supper fast, but this uses up lots of endurance. (and looks tacky)
Teleportation: Zone Teleport: Like Group Teleport, except now everyone in the Zone gets bounced around.
Leadership: meglomaniac: Click power that allows you to TAKE OVER THE WORLD (no in game effects, beyond some flashy lights and a noise remarkably like a kazoo) -
this character that you describe is at least 32 and yet has only 3 slots in storm kick, and presumably the other attacks
With no end reducers
That is probably why the aforementioned problems took place.
You would have the same problems with any Scrapper slotted that way
Or Blaster, or any other AT you could mention -
it is a lot harder on End than claws
Other than that its pretty much normal. -
dragon's tail is actually an awesome AOE
Knocks a lot of baddies over
Does reasonable damage
but the best part is it animates a lot faster than the other PBAOEs
MA may not be competitive AOE wise - but it is not because Dragon's tail is bad. -
Quote:Originally Posted by SpiderTeo_OC
Slot Cobra Strike for damage rather than Stun. Because its mag3 Stun is now 75%, it's not a guarantee that the effect will go off, and the slotting for Stun would effectively be wasted. It's better to just slot for +recharge to allow for perma-stunning.
Cobra Strike can now be one of your top three/four attacks, meaning it can replace Crane Kick if you are not down with its KB.
Or, if you hate Crippling Axe Kick's Lame animation .. you can just get both crane kick and cobra strike