Granite Agent
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Posts
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Joined
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Quote:I'd be curious "how much" better especially compared to MB>SR>AS>SS which I'm guessing is next best? (If not, what is?).Originally Posted by Microcosm
MB>PS>AS>SS is indeed the top, though not by much.
I ask because making room for both MB and PS in a build seems tight, whereas taking only MB would leave room for SR/GS/EotS/SS with not as many compromises (esp on my builds above).
I figure MB>SR might be OK because you get a higher DPA attack in SR plus also you get to slot the Apocalypse Proc and a 2nd damage proc in SR (vs with MB>PS, where the Heca purple proc is already probably loaded into SS and thus the MB/PS/AS/SS chain doesn't get another purple proc). -
Quote:Yeh but see my later post of my Claws/SR doing 244 dps with T4 Reactive (196dps before Reactive), which I think would go to like 260 if it had included the Brute ATO fury proc. Shinobi's had both.Originally Posted by Microcosm
Again, TW is the obvious outlier, as well as the SS/Fire pairing. Find any other SS brute build in the pylon thread, you will not see these kinds of numbers. Comparing the set to the two outliers as "standards" is silly. Honestly, though people may not like it, this is more of a story of TW needing a nerf and rage needing to only work on powers within it's own set (as in, not gloom and not burn).
260 is meaningfully better than 198. -
Quote:T4 Reactive, and I Believe T3 agility.Originally Posted by BrandX
Was the TW/SR Brute using Incarnate abilties? As for the SS/Fire/Soul...I'd consider that an outlier case, top of the line (and as mentioned likely using gloom).
Shinobi's brute had T4 Reactive and I think agility too.
My Claws/SR brute was getting 196 dps before T4 Reactive and 244 dps with T4 Reactive. That's BEFORE the Brute's Fury ATO, which would up that a meaningful amount more.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...33#post3861133
So before we say it's all OP'd TW or SS/Rage/Fire/Soul synergy, my guess is Claws/SR would be pushing 260 with the fury proc. 198 from staff with T4 Reactive and the fury proc is not nearly as good. -
Quote:My TW/SR Brute was getting 345dps on average (with some runs of 355dps).Originally Posted by BrandX
This was a Brute who was getting 198 with T4 Reactive.
My DB/WP Scrapper was only getting about maaaaybe 20 more DPS than that.
Last I recall, Brutes generally did less DPS than Scrappers when it came to attack chains that didn't involve using Gloom.
In fact, I don't remember there being a weapon set on Brutes that wasn't better on Scrappers, with the exception of Claws, which had to be ported with Brutes in mind, and even then I recall Scrappers still winning (barely) in ST DPS, while Brutes were top in the AOE for Claws.
I'm curious to see the Scrapper time, with them doing better on the +DMG bonuses than Brutes.
And of course Stalkers win out on ST DPS, new Assassin Strike should assure that, not to mention Form of Body free, with BU use!
So it'd be best to see those numbers (IOed Scrapper no Incarnate) even if it's going by MIDs, which hasnt even put out SF yet to check out.
Tommy just posted his SS/Fire/Soul took down a pylon in 2.30, which is 383.5dps. -
I tried a little to crack the math of Microcosm's chains over here
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...98&postcount=7
But I too am out of my depth
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Quote:From City of Data http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/power...Staff_Fighting
MB-GS-AS-SS
MB-PS-AS-SS
PS-GS-AS-SS
MB-SR-AS-SS
SR-GS-AS-SS
MB = 1 sec cast
PS = 1.13 sec cast
SR = 1.77 sec cast
GS = 1.83 sec cast
SS = 2.83 sec cast
So if we assume that SS always lets AS recharge in time, ans we take Micro's word that we want to reduce the time of the other attacks before AS/SS so as to get AS/SS up as much as possible, yet also we want to include -RES, then:
MB-PS-AS-SS .. where MB-PS = 2.13 secs, and you can slot MB with -RES Achilles
Whereas
MB-SR = 2.77
MB-GS = 2.83
PB-GS = 2.96
SR-GS = 3.6
So the question is, how much of a difference in DPS is having AS/SS up faster -- MB-PS would be 0.64 sec faster than the next fastest, MB-SR
And how does two shots on -RES (MB-GS) compare in DPS terms over time given that it is 0.7 secs slower ... but in addition to two -RES chances it adds the armageddon purple proc to the chain. I'm assuming SS always has the Heca proc.
There is probably some slotting of MB (3 Acc/Dmg Hamis, 2 dmg procs, -RES proc) that makes it better. My build I've kept the 4 Kin Combats so i'd have to pick up 3.75% S/L elswhere (not sure).
The SR-GS variant he probably liked because it gives 2 purple procs (and maybe 1 other dmg proc in SR) along with the -RES in GS. But it is the longest variant: 1.47 secs longer than MB-PS, and 0.77 secs longer than MB-GS.
I'm a bit out of my depth here, trying to compare all these variables. Need Micro to jump back in, or Aracanaville, or Werner, or Combat lol. -
Microcosm was saying that including attacks like Mercurial and Guarded Spin in the chain, even though they do lower DPA, can be good because they allow you to add -RES. MB with the achilles proc, and Guarded with the Fury of Glad proc.
He didn't say exactly which chain he thinks is best, but he suggested things like: MB-GS-AS-SS
His argument is that you should try to get AS / SS up as much as possible, so lower activation time attacks like MB can be good. He listed 4 variant chains but I don't know which he likes best.
Below is a rebuild that shows 10K Cuts as Guarded Spin, slotted with -RES and Armageddon. (Leaving the Oblits in EotS). Power Slice is presumably Mercurial, with +5'd Kinetic Combats, dmg proc, and -RES proc. If you want Power Sink, slot it in place of Super Speed -- looks like one +5'd end IO is enough, and would have a 22 sec recharge.
Micro, if you can extrapolate on the chains, that would be awesome.
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Quote:OK, interesting. So MB with -RES, GS with -RES, and then AS / SS? I didn't think that the -RES would make up for the loss of dpa but I will take your word for it.Originally Posted by Microcosm
The recharge burden is on Sky Splitter. AS has plenty of time to recharge because of Sky Splitter's long activation time.
For guarded spin, Armageddon + Fury of the Gladiator proc. The affect of the -res on AS and Sky Splitter make up for the lower dpa than SR. -
Quote:What is the gating recharge item in those chains -- AS? What kind of recharge are you needing to hit for AS out of hide, to run those chains?Originally Posted by Microcosm
If you are speaking about Dread Shinobi's, that was a brute.
As for the attack chains, it is sometimes better to use a lower dpa attack if it allows you to use your highest dpa attacks more frequently. Sometimes the addition of -res procs will make the difference. In such a case where you have two heavy hitters (AS and SS), it is better to get whatever -res you can or simply shorten the chain.
Also, still surprised you put Guarded Spin in some of those chains -- are you slotting it with something I'm not thinking about? -
Quote:Why are those better when MB and GS appeared to have lower DPA than PS or SR? (based on City of Data figures for damage over activation time)Originally Posted by Microcosm
Lol, there are five chains better than that one for stalkers.
MB-GS-AS-SS
MB-PS-AS-SS
PS-GS-AS-SS
MB-SR-AS-SS
SR-GS-AS-SS
With appropriate -res procs where possible.
Don't you want to use higher DPA attacks as often as possible?
Can you help me understand your calculations?
It didn't look like the -RES in MB would make up enough for its lower dpa. -
Quote:Everyone hating on Reppu is ignoring his post above, quoting Dread Shinobi's testing. This is pathetic dps for a purpled-out T4 reactive scrapper. People were beating this DPS on scrappers before incarnate powers and PPM procs. It should be at least in the 300+ range to be competitive with other sets.Originally Posted by Reppu
The 'standard' should be 'competitive to the best'. That is all it needs to be. A new set should be 'competitive'. It does not have to 'win'. It does not have to 'lose'. It simply needs to be in the race. That is what I want, and what I feel should be strived for in testing. Competitiveness, not Outlier.
It's almost like if you're seen asking for buffs, you obviously want an Overpowered Outlier. Ludicrous.
Also, Staff was tested at 50 with the BEST IOs in the game (IE: PPM Procs off the market).
200 DPS on a Scrapper.
That's pathetic.
Yes, it was the best chain, too. Yes, it was an overly impossibly expensive build. In fact, it's in this thread, even.
I tested staff but only had time to get up to lvl 18. Lack of level bumps at available resources held me back. I concur that most of the comments in the Staff thread were aesthetics.
You may not like Reppu's delivery but it's really hard to argue with this message, that the set underperforms. Making it perform better or on par with higher end sets won't change the aesthetics or anything ppl like about it. -
Messing around in MIDS based on a build I think Test Rat or someone through together. It's looking like Stalkers will have the only reasonable single-target chain in the Staff world, as the DPA on the attacks outside of AS aren't that hot. Dark Shinobi said his purpled-out Staff scrapper on Test was only getting 198 dps
In the build below:
1) Power Slice = Precise Strikes
2) Sweeping Strike = Guarded Spin
3) 10K cuts = eye of the storm
4) Dark Blast = Serpent's Reach
5) Ablating Strike = Sky Splitter
6) Vengeful = place holder for Dark Blast pre-req to Shadow Meld
In theory this build has enough recharge, I think, to run PS>SR>AS>SS, which appears to be the top ST attack chain. The problem is there is nowhere to really slot -RES since Mercurial isn't a powerpick, and sticking a Glad Armor in EoTS may be a waste.
Open to suggestions to proc it out more, etc. Not sure the Shield Wall +RES is really needed.
Build has 45%+ S/L def, and with Shadow Meld up (15 sec downtime, up every 30 secs, 15 sec duration) it i-caps on S/L and Melee, and hits 45%+ on just about everything else. Why Shadow Meld? 1) I hate redraw; 2) endurance hopefully is handled by Energize (see Power Sink question below); and 3) in i-trials, Shadow Meld is a godsend.
Base RES is 60%+ on S/L, 75% on energy, 50% on C/F, and 30%-35% on neg/psi with elec's toxic hole.
Skipped Power Sink -- is it worth it? Could take in place of SuperSpeed.
The various accolades could push HP to ~1600, but base here is 1357 or so (sad panda).
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.954
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Natural Stalker
Primary Power Set: Dual Blades
Secondary Power Set: Electric Armor
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery
Villain Profile:
Level 1: Power Slice -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(7), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(9), Mako-Dam%(9), GS-%Dam(46)
Level 1: Hide -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(3), SW-ResDam/Re TP(48)
Level 2: Sweeping Strike -- Oblit-%Dam(A), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(11), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(11), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(13), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(25), Oblit-Dmg(42)
Level 4: Charged Armor -- RctvArm-ResDam(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(5), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(5), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(7)
Level 6: Assassin's Blades -- SStalkersG-Rchg/Hide%(A), SStalkersG-Dmg/Rchg(15), SStalkersG-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(15), SStalkersG-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(17), SStalkersG-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(17), GS-%Dam(48)
Level 8: Build Up -- GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(A), GSFC-Build%(13), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(37), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(39), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(39), GSFC-ToHit(39)
Level 10: Static Shield -- GA-3defTpProc(A)
Level 12: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(19)
Level 14: Conductive Shield -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam(21), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(21), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(23)
Level 16: Grounded -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A)
Level 18: One Thousand Cuts -- Armgdn-Dam%(A), Armgdn-Dmg/EndRdx(19), Armgdn-Acc/Rchg(23), Armgdn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(25), Armgdn-Dmg/Rchg(34)
Level 20: Lightning Reflexes -- Run-I(A)
Level 22: Boxing -- KntkC'bat-Knock%(A), KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(36), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(37), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(37)
Level 24: Tough -- RctvArm-ResDam(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(27), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(27), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(31)
Level 26: Dark Blast -- Apoc-Dam%(A), Apoc-Dmg(40), Apoc-Dmg/Rchg(40), Apoc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(40), Apoc-Acc/Rchg(42), GJ-Dam%(50)
Level 28: Energize -- Dct'dW-Heal(A), Dct'dW-Rchg(29), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx(29), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(31), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(31)
Level 30: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(34), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(34)
Level 32: Ablating Strike -- Hectmb-Dmg(A), Hectmb-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), Hectmb-Acc/Rchg(33), Hectmb-Dmg/EndRdx(33), Hectmb-Dam%(45), GS-%Dam(48)
Level 35: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Def(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(36), LkGmblr-Rchg+(36)
Level 38: Power Surge -- RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(A), RctvArm-EndRdx/Rchg(43), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(45), RctvArm-ResDam(45)
Level 41: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(50), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(50)
Level 44: Vengeful Slice -- Empty(A)
Level 47: Shadow Meld -- RedFtn-Def/Rchg(A)
Level 49: Super Speed -- Clrty-Stlth(A)
Level 50: Agility Core Paragon
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Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(42), P'Shift-End%(46)
Level 1: Assassination
Level 1: Brawl -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(43), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(43), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run -
This really a shame.
So I guess for stalkers you'd have either PS>SR>PS>AS, or PS>SR>AS>SS? Probably the latter assuming AS with ATO proc causes SS to crit (does it crit fully?). While the latter chain would pick up AS's crit on SS, and extra form damage on SS, it seems to lack anywhere to slot -RES procs. -
Quote:Given what Reppu is saying above, and that your purpled-out time is above and only yielded 198dps, I think there is a huge issue here. My purpled out TW/SR brute was getting 300+ dps.Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
PS>SR>PS>SS is the best attack chain. This is what I used on my staff/da brute on beta and got ~198 dps. That is with t4 reactive. Didn't need to self heal, but did use barrier about 4 times during the run. Build was IO'd to the gills. Fully purpled including pvp ios. Brutes Fury in Sky splitter, hecatombs in PS for double purple proc in the chain, apocs in SR.
Maybe the only answer is go stalker to get the new AS into the ST chain. (in place of one of the PS, perhaps)
Unless your dps calculation was wrong? -
http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/power...Staff_Fighting
So judging by the Staff data at City of Data, and make some assumptions about DPA as damage/activation-time, doesn't it seem like the highest DPA attacks (single-target hit) are:
1) Precise Strikes (1.32dmg/1.13cast = 1.17 dpa
2) Serpent's Reach (1.8dmg/1.7cast) = 1.01 dpa
3) Sky Splitter (2.76dmg/2.83cast) = 0.97 dpa *
4) Mercurial Blow (.84dmg/1cast) =0.84 dpa
* Does not include bonus damage from 3 stacks of form
If the above is correct -- and it may not be, because of Aracnatime, or enhanced damage, I really have no idea -- then wouldn't the best attack chain be to set up 3 stacks of form and release with Skysplitter?
SkySplitter has 15 recharge which probably can be taken down to 3.5-3.9 with enough recharge. That's enough time to chain Mercurial (include -RES proc), Serpent's Reach, Precise (3.9 secs total), then Sky Splitter for bonus form damage?
Anyway, open to ideas here. -
Quote:dark purple / dark purple -- colors for the ice effects. you barely will see them.Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Ice is really, truly ugly but if you can get past that I recommend it highly. I.
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Quote:<<Reduced the procs per minute on the Store version of Performance Shifter: Chance for +End from 3 to 1.5 to be consistent with the Invention Origin version.>>Originally Posted by Reppu
Didn't they nerf Performance Shifter Procs from 3.0 to 1.5? Pretty sure that was in the patch notes.
Yep. Well it was a good 4+ weeks while it lasted ....
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Quote:Pretty sure the DO have it. This was a big issue on the i22 beta boards that the devs pretty much ignored.Originally Posted by Blasted_Man
I think DA mobs don't have the +14% to hit that the incarnate trial mobs have, so 45% is the soft cap for DA.
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Quote:I guess that was too much to askOriginally Posted by Reppu
I'll cease this conversation due to your blatant disrespect.
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I just spam my new Healing Arrow (Blazing Arrow slotted with Defender proc and set)
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Quote:The only concrete StJ build I saw with a believable pylon time was Ricodah's. And one time I think was using some SBE procs on test?Originally Posted by Reppu
I have. And StJ is beating them by a large enough margin. The most recent Stalker DB build I saw was 320-340 DPS. STJ was hitting 350 on it's LOW END, and 420 on it's High End (theoretical). That's a fairly large disparity, and it's all entirely due to Crushing Uppercut.
Keep in mind that Dual Blades has two of the better attacks in the game with Ablating Strike and Sweeping Strike. It SHOULD be performing well.
My build didn't do nearly as well -- and that's purpled out and running ageless. (you could say my build is weak then, but it's pretty much a tuned up StJ/Ice build ... )
The DB time posted kicked my time's butt. Also there were some talk of Ninja Blade times being even better once ppl got around to building for new i22 dps chains.
I think you will find it is not as cut and dried as you are implying. Plus even the top StJ times are still behind other AT times like Brute SS/Fire/Soul or even my TW/SR brute's time.
Let's get off the nerf StJ (nerf CU) herding and on to fixing issues in the other stalker sets. -
Some of the best DPS times in pylon test thread are being done by DB, not by StJ. Ninja Blade too is a high-end dps competitor. Check out last few pages of pylon thread in Scrapper forum.
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For the new DA content (assuming you run +4/+8) or itrials I highly recommend StJ/Ice. Softcap (45%) plus Icy Bastion is plain cheating
Add in PPP for Shadow Meld and you are golden for iContent (DA, trials).
You lose some recharge from say SR -- so the absolute top chain may be out of reach (maybe not with Ageless) -- but you get loads of survivability, esp. with perma Hoarfrost putting you at around 2000hp. If you make the ice armor dark purple / dark purple, you barely see it at all. I took Rebirth for extra survivability. -
I believe WM/SD is substantially sturdier and strong than a Bane, outside of the odd hidden crit. CC is absurdly stronger on a WM/SD outside of hide. Not to mention Clobber, which is the best-est thing ever.
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Quote:Synapse told me (via PMs) he found no change. I think the reported "firing all the time in Roots" is observer error.Originally Posted by Little_Whorn
I would also like confirmation of this before burning a respec. Anyone out there able and willing to test this? This would be a crucial fix for my plant/psi.