GenericVillain

Well if you look at arcana's values, for instance, it's all one big formula for calcuating an enemy's chance to hit. Since defense plays a role in his tohit, I don't really see that as part of your mitigation, but part of an overall formula for tohit. So I don't think I'm the only one that thinks this way, and I've seen other people calculate like me. I've seen other weird ideas, such as converting everything to a hp regen % over time.

Especially since come i7 everyone is going to have that 50% no matter what, why not have it in the equation? It's basically a constant, a modifer on your mitigation so to speak. It's easy enough to change in the equation should the 50% change. And if the devs change the number, it does have an effect on your overall survivability, so doing so would also show that the tank's effectiveness/damage taken over time has changed.

I prefer not to think of it as my mitigation and enemies's accuracy. I prefer to think of it as %of damage taken over time with X set. Yes this means that all squishes automatically have 50% damage taken over time, but it's true.

I can honestly see wanting to use a 0 resistance 0 defense person as a baseline for determining effectiveness tho (which is what happens if you take that 50% out). If you know that squishy x is 0 and tank is 50, you know that the tank can take twice the punishment of x pretty easy. Of course, the same is also true of 50% mit and 75% mit, but it's less easy to see I guess.

And I'm a programmer too, btw

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An enemy wi th 50% acc will hit 50% of the time himself, you are not mitigating the damage he tosses,

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I'm afraid I'm just going to have to disagree with you, and we'll probably have to agree to disagree on this part. I think knowing that 50% is important because I think it makes more sense to say, "The enemy is throwing out 1000 damage attacks, but I'm only taking 10% of that over time", not "The enemy is throwing out 1000 damage attacks that hit 50% of the time, and I'm taking 20% of the damage that hits over time". That's what I meant when I said its only sort of true in the i7 world.

Seeing as your defense directly affects the enemies chance to hit, and seeing as tohit buffs on the enemies part, and defense debuffs on your part, and rank buffs and level buffs and so on all play part to produce one tohit number for the enemy, it only makes sense to leave it altogether in one compact number.

Another reason, why it is important to have that 50% in your equation. Health regen powers like aid self. If you know that you can heal 100% of your health every minute, it's important to know how much damage you are taking over time. Basically, the difference between our two systems means that to get real effective damage over time, you have to divide the enemies damage numbers by 2 before muliplying in your mitigation.

But why do this when you can do the same amount of math (.5 - defense instead of defense * 2), and not have to do that extra step in the end to get practical results?

You may disagree with me however.

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you cant do that. 46.8 mitigates 46.8 nothing else. The fact that the enemy has 50% acc does not matter.

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To say it doesn't matter is to ignore a vital part in how defense plays a role in damage mitigation. To put it quite simply, if an enemy only hits you 50% of the time and you resist 46.8% of the incoming damage, you are not taking 77.1% of the incoming damage. That is how defense and resistance work together.

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DefenseBenefit = Def/50 * 100

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This can be simplified down to Defense benefit = Def * 2. This assumes the gneral rule that one defense = 2 resistance, which is NOT accurate in the current i6 world. For example, fight an enemy high enough level right now, and 10% defense gives you NO benefit, as they'll still have a 95% chance to help you. It is true in the i7 world, but only in a sense. Your equation gives the damage mitigation on top of the 50% hit/miss mitigation, and not the total overall mitigation.

The true defense benefit equation is this (simplified to take out things like level bonsues and rank bonses and defense debuffs)

DefenseBenefit = 100% - (Enemy's Tohit - Defense)
So with 45% defense and a even con minion, you dodge 95% of the hits.

You cannot simplify it more than that. In the world of i7, it's actually more complicated while more simple at the same time but you can get a general idea of the damage mitigation by saying
DefenseBenefit = 100% - (50% - Defense) = 50% + Defense

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It only takes 2 enemies in melee range to make the invuln better than the fire against energies.


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I'd like to know how you are coming about these numbers.

For example, 46.8 resists from a fire tanker against an even con minion mitigates 77.1% of the incoming damage (50% base chance to hit).

For invul, thats 30% resists and 2 minions which is something like a 12% defense boost which is a 73.4% mitgation over time. Against higher cons, fire will only be better as defense will have less of an impact.

So I'm curious to see your math.

So what are the values supposed to be?

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(some guy actually said this was the ultimate technique for xps- he said his SG had been tporting a dead body around for a month. Please- say it ain't so...)

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This sounds like possible a vengence/fallout using team. Not just merely tping around a dead body for risk free exp, but actually using the body for a massive party buff.

I highly disagree. A defeat ratio is in fact a good idea. It would allow you to get an idea based on some variables to determine how hard your game is to the average user. Getting that statistic would be hard, mind you, but yeah.

There's a difference between a statistic, and how you choose to achieve that statistic. Just because they determine that the average user will die once a heroic mission (which, honestly, I've never heard a dev say), doesn't mean that they can't come up with imaginative level design that the average user will possibly die once too.

There are other ways you can come about to figure out how hard your levels are, of course, but I don't see why coming up with a number on how often the average user will die, would be so bad.

My statistic when soloing? I die once per elite boss. Then I buy a crapton of inspirations and show that elite boss whose... boss

Math != Creativity. You can use one to get the other, or not, they are unrelated.

Oh right... I apparently just suck at reading comprehension. I got my numbers by assuming the [50% - defence] would turn into 57.5 or 65 based on rank, but I forgot that the rank buff was on the outside.

I have a feeling bubblers will be feeling a lot more needed after the changes. I don't know the exact number, but I think they could almost cap out defence themselves, baring debuffs and the such.

Okay, so.... in i7 (after coming back to this after awhile), assuming boring joe average enemies with no tohit buffs or defence debuffs, these will be the important numbers to hit in i7

45% - Floor minion accuracy. +4 minions have a 7% accuracy. Oh noes

52.5% - Floor luts

60% - Floor bosses

70% - Floor AVs (prolly can't hit this without defender help)

So take invincibility with 36% defence max with 10 minions... toss in -5% from unyielding, add 8% from tough skin, you've got 39%, flooring minions, pretty much. From there, any boost gives you a HUGE advantage, much like 10% resists going from 80% to 90% halves your damage.

4% from 3 slotted combat jumping, something like 8% from 3 slotted weave... 8% from manuvres, and you are now flooring bosses. Add in a teammate with a defence buff and you can handle debuffs and tohit buffs.

Not as worthless anymore... but still possibly not worth the slots.

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Four friends decide to check out Siren's Call. A MA/SR Scrapper, Fire/Dev Blaster, Dark/Rad Defender, and an Ice/Rad Controller. They stick togther and are checking out the zone. Bam, Defender is dead. "What was that?". A short time passes waiting for the Defender to get back from the Hospital. Bam, Controller is dead. "What the <bleep> was that?". Team leaves frustrated and angry.

Now, same team after some research, comes back after respeccing for PVP. All four now have Tactics and Assault. The Ice Controller now has Artic Air. Blaster circles overhead. Scrapper circles around Defender and Controller. Stalker approaches, Blaster sends out a warning shot, Stalker either goes and gets a team, or does not bother the fearsome-foursome.


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A group of people got punked by a stalker, researched, adapted, and overcame. Sounds good to me. Sounds no different than

"A solo dm scrapper runs out and fights a boss. He takes lots of damage, and can't seem to dent him, and quickly runs out of endurance. He goes to the hospital soon after aggrivated.

After researching on the web, he discovers an effective way to build that suits him. He takes stamina, slots it up, puts end reducers in his attacks and armors, takes touch of fear, dark consumption, soul drain, and dark regeneration and goes back. First he gathers up 5 minions and attacks the boss without killing them. He quickly fears the boss with 2 applications, pausing only to fire off a dark regeneration to absorb the alpha. He then fires off soul drain and gets a huge boost to damage and lays into the boss. He quickly finishes off the boss, pausing only to occasionaly reapply the touch of fear. Now he is almost dead again from the minions. He then fires off dark regeneration again, then lays into the minions. By now he's almost out of endurance, so he fires up dark consumption, finishes them off, and is ready for the next group."

Same theme. He got beaten down due to ignorance, learned more about his character, adapted, and overcame the situation. I don't see any reason why these principles should work in pve and not pvp.

EDIT: In your example, you did in fact ignore the fact that as soon as the stalker ASed one teammate, the others would have been on him like white on rice. Even with one of them placated, he woulda gone down fast.

What exactly is the point of that post? What if I gave Scrappers tanker defences, or Blaster's containment? You can't exactly prove something is broken by giving a game mechanic to another class, espcially considering that defenders and controllers are ranged classes, not to mention they have plenty of things that make them good.

Like for example, a controller could hold you from hide, placate, then assassin strike + containment for the most ridculous number you've ever seen.

Hide is a mechanic that lets you kill people who aren't on their toes. Stalkers without hide are basically weak scrappers... yes they have scrapper defences, but they also have less hitpoints.

If you take away hide, you'll have to give scrappers something else, and you'll end up turning them into just another melee class.

The assassin class is present in every mmo, and is here to stay. Just because they dominate in one small limited instance, doesn't mean they are broken. I've seen stalkers in groups in pve... guess who hits the ground the most? Guess who would hit the ground the most once the hide mechanic is worked around through say stacked tactics or autohit auras or whatever?

Jeeze, aren't you guys tired of nerfs yet? Nerf regen, nerf stalkers, nerf energy melee, blah... you'd think you'd have had enough after i5 and i6, but apparently not. The problem is workable... you can stack perception through say tactics and be able to see any stalker. There are powers that grant perception too I believe.

When everyone is the same it's boring. Take away the stalker's hide, and he's just another scrapper melee class, that's quite fragile.

You might be a noob if....
You think that the % values in the enhancement screen for recharge enhancers and endurance reduction enhancers are how much it's reduced, rather than 1/that number.

you say, "ru healr?" Especially if you say it to anyone in my sg. They kinda don't like that.

Now for a round of "Don't do that!"
When it's obvious your actions are detrimental to the team, such as grabbing aggro too early. Stop. Often the team will give you subtle clues such as, "FRICKIN STOP GRABBING MORE AGGRO BEFORE WE'RE FINISHED WITH THE FIRST SPAWN, GENERICHERO2922, OR SO HELP ME GOD I'LL KICK YOU FROM THE TEAM!"

Hopefully this hasn't been done.

Statesman: So this is Pocket D

Statesman: Ohh a mission? Sure, I'll be glad to. Blah blah arrest all the enemies and okay I'm off.

Mission Guy: Wait.... oh well. He'll figure it out.

*Statesman easily arrests all the enemies, then gets to the ancient box thing*

Statesman: So I just gotta destroy this and everythings cool? *pounds away for 2 hours*

*Statesman goes back to mission guy*
Statesman: Hey uh.... I can't seem to destroy it... it's like indestructable or something, and trust me, that means a lot cause I'M STATESMAN!!!!! (dramatic music plays)

Mission Giver: I tried to tell you. You need someone with a heart of darkness to go along with you, because only they can break the box!

Statesman: ............. oh.

Recluse: So thiiiis is Pocket D.

Statesman: Hey uh... I was wondering... I've got this mission... and uh..... there's this box.... and apparently only a villain can break it..... so whatta say? Wanna help me out here?

Recluse: Sure! I need the badge anyways. Afterwards, can you help me do my mission? I need someone pure of heart blah blah blah.

Statesman: Yeah okay! I'm still gunna take you down though after this, you know that right.

Recluse: Yeah yeah. Loser.

Just listened to the Abomination one. It's pretty awesome It tricked me tho! I thought at first it was a story from the point of view of a necro mastermind's minion, but it turned out to be about a brute (There was even a SMASH reference )... not sure what classes.... I'd guess SS/INV. But yeah, I'm definately looking forward to that story being continued.

Thank you very very much, I'll try out some of the more advanced binds later (maybe even specialize speaking binds for my pets, not just for a group, but for each individual), but this has done a TON for making me into a decent MM player. Being able to quickly order my minions is extremely useful.

I have a cool bind I like to use that's an rp bind. I don't have access to it right now, but I'll try to remember it as best I can for you guys.

Okay for this to work, you need to be in front of your minions, you facing them, them facing you.

/bind z "/em bowdown$$l Don't forget who made you!$$petsayall <em praise>$$petsayall We're not worthy!!"
/bind x "em laugh$$l Oooohohohohohohoho!"

Yes, my character is a girl, as you can tell by the laugh. Hit z, wait a few seconds, then hit x

Basically what happens is she sticks out her hand in the bow down motion, tells them whose boss, my bots then get down and start praising me saying they aren't worthy Then after a few seconds she throws her head back laughing in a typical anime style evil girl laugh. I've gotten some good reations doing that, hehe. Note the local btw. Nothing like accidently saying it in broadcast for an embarrassment (if you use say instead of local)

So basically, you only need 50% defence to floor (take them down to their minimum accuracy, whether it's .05 or .055) any enemy, not taking into account to hit buffs and defence debuffs and the such? Since the rank and level bonuses are on the outside.

Before I go to bed, I have to check something here involving how enemies with crazy inherient accuracy can somehow never hit the .05 floor.

Bounded[ (BaseAcc) * (AccuBuffs) * (AccDebuffs) * (RankBuff) * (LevelBuff) * Bounded[ (BaseToHit + ToHitBuffs - ToHitDebuffs + Defense - DefenseDebuffs) ] ]

For simplicity, we'll assume that we are fighting a minion (.5 base acc), with no acc buffs going on other than natural stuff, and no to hit buffs/debuffs going on, or defence debuffs, and a normal attack (basetohit = 1. So that leaves us with this simplified formula.

Bounded[ (.5) * (LevelBuff) * Bounded[ (1 - Defense ) ] ]

so, with a even con minion, and 100% defence (say from a really lucky invincibility or stacked bubbles or something), we get this

Bounded[ (.5) * (1) * Bounded[ (1 - 1 ) ] ]
Bounded[ .5 * .05 ]
.05%

Big surprise there. Now lets try a +4 boss (.65 base to hit, 1.34 level bonus)

Bounded[ (.65) * (1.34) * Bounded[ (1 - 1 ) ] ]
Bounded[ .871 * .05 ]
Bounded[ .043 ]
.05
So a +4 boss can't even touch that defence.

How about an absurd inherent accuracy bonus of 200% with a +4 boss?

Bounded[ (.65) * (1.34) * (3) * Bounded[ (1 - 1 ) ] ]
Bounded[ 2.613 * .05 ]
.13

So under some extremely absurd conditions, the villian has about a 1 in 7 chance of connecting. I don't think any villians have anywhere near that high of an inherient accuracy bonus though. I think absurd is currently something like 75%

Bounded[ (.65) * (1.34) * (1.75) * Bounded[ (1 - 1 ) ] ]
Bounded[ 1.52 * .05 ]
.08

Okay, so the absurd accuracy +4 bosses bearly break the .05 floor, but it's hardly noticable.

So, honestly, in light of the numbers, while it is true that super high defence powers are slightly weakened, it's hardly noticeable if at all.

Did I miss something or am I right?

It's worthy of note of what would happen in the exact same circumstance with tohit

Bounded[ (.65) * (1.75) * Bounded[ (1 - (1-.34) ) ] ]
Bounded[ (.65) * (1.75) * (.66) ] ]
Bounded[ 1.13 * .66 ]
.74

Ouch. Of course, if you can somehow hit 34% more defence, you'll be back to those nice .05 numbers. A little bit of defence really does go a long way.

So, really high defence numbers are doing better thanks to these changes. ABSURDLY HIGH defence numbers are the only ones weakened by this I'd say, and I'm not sure if it's possible to hit defence numbers high enough to make the i7 changes kinda hurt a tiny bit on the inside without outside help.

Again, correct me if I'm wrong, because it's late and I'm tired.

You know, all this talk about Regen makes me want to make one. Maybe a spines/regen Then I can pop on the boards every once in a while and talk about how I just soloed a +5 AV with nothing but faster healing and brawl on auto while I went out to eat at Denny's.

They'll change IH so that after toggle's duration ends, it crashes, leaving you with no endurance. Reason? Bringing it in line with the other scrapper powers Elude and Unstoppable.

Well, it won't bother me because the sg I'm in has a sg costume, but also, when we are out fighting, has a sg color scheme that we switch to ON that costume. So in other words, we have 2 costume in one, and we already all switch to sg mode anyways, so this won't mess us up, although I can see how it might be annoying to other people.

My advice is to figure out a way to work sg colors with a costume, or figure out a good sg color/sg costume combo.

No, it's a fix for those after the changes so that they can still spend in theory about the same about of time and effort to get this badge.

I know that the devs are eventually going to respond with "Thanks for all your comments. The devs are happy with the way defiance is working".

At any rate, I like definace (got to do 400+ damage with my blaster) and all, but the damage ramp is way way way to expodential. You don't get any major boost until you are within "oh crap" distance of 0 health, and at that point you pretty much just wanna heal yourself. I really don't recommend anyone run around with one hp novaing everything in sight unless you got some accuracy boosts going on too.

Anyways, I think defiance should be a linear boost starting from 50ish% health remaining. So from 50-(0%+1 health) you linearally go from your 40% boost to your 500% boost. That would make it a bit better. At the least, a secondary accuracy buff should be added to the damage buff so that you don't miss with your uber attack.

I'm also all for the idea of dropping this idea of definace and putting in a more or less "frenzy" effect into blasters where as they attack, they get more powerful and more accurate, although I think such an ability would be MUCH more suited for a scrapper.