Fire_Minded

Bit of a update, The further I play this build, the more of a Tanker Sidekick it becomes.

Your seemingly correct on your assessment on a split second after the Alpha is taken by someone else.I litterally have been running in right beside the Tanker to deliver Chilling Embrace and then Irradiate putting some heavy DeBuffage on the mob.I can hardly wait for Ice Patch and Shiver.

So far its a great support build, and it doesnt slouch when it comes to damage.Im lovin it.

Acctually, I try to stay away from Atlas like the plague.Its way to Laggy and way to much spamming for me.

Iv seen it in all PvE zones iv been to.

Im on Freedom and Virtue.I see the Broadcast cry for Healer every time I login.

Same goes for a cry for a Tank.Every time I login.

Well, iv faced this issue alot over the years that iv played off and on.It goes far beyond just my Defenders or Controllers.

I still catch flak because I play Resistance Tankers, and none healing Defenders.I was added to a team recently with my Dark/Dark Defender and I was sent a tell, "Sorry, but we need a healer.", and was kicked right after.

I acctually struggled with this one just to hold back the laughter.A Dark/Dark gives out the biggest and constant green numbers everyone belives they must have to play this game.My Dark Servant alone spams 399 HP AoE, and so does my Defender.Thats almost 800 HP every cast cycle between my self and my pet (Only level 37 right now).Not that those heals are really relied on, considering I floor the bad guys ability to hit anything with this Defender, effectivly soft capping the team.

Its rather annoying when a team your in hunts for 30 minutes for a Empathy/No Attacks Defender build, just to give the props to that player when he contributes a multitude less then a well play Dark/Dark brings to the table.

Heck, My Dark can even Tank and hold agro on a 8 man team for the duration.All the way upto a +2 con ranking.

People have issues beliving in anything but a rehashed Tanker needs to lead, Healer must be found games that plague the net.Dont exspect it to change any time soon.

Iv combated the situation by making builds of all ATs that can tank, and solo large 8 man missions by them selves.So when I acctually do join a team, theres no issue.That and I tend to ignore the cries for a healer and try to show the team what a good debuffer can do without heals.

Some times people notice and add me to friends to team with me again later, others say nothing, and the rest, well, they commonly have some thing smug to say or something ugly to say about my lack of a heal other button.

Pointing out how they didnt die because of the debuffs you shoveled out is a mute point to 95% of the people you team with.They dont care, and wont be paying attention.

Iv learned to ignore it.

Yes and no.

I agree 100% that Slotting is involved.I dissagree 100% to Mids being a accurate program.

I dont use a note book and pen, or Mids.The games so friggin simple you dont need either.

For those who dont take powers like Spin till much later, and dont bother slotting them for a long while, thats on them.On my SD/Axe Tanker being level 40, I have no slotting issues, nore do I have Endurance Issues with the build.

I have 5 Slots on Whirling Axe.3 Damage SOs, and 2 Endurance Redux.I also grabbed up Whirling Axe the moment it was available, and the very next level I granted it 2 more slots for full SO damage capability.

I guess I have the uncommon capability of grabbing every single power minus 1 between all my powers in my chosen sets by level 40.My SD/Axe doesnt have Grant Cover.I havnt needed it yet.

So for most players, Slotting and power choices are tough, but not for me.Its simple.

I use Ninja Run for my Travel power, and pick up only the Fittness Pool.Swift, Health, Stamina.Thats the only pool I pick up by level 20-24, and by level 40, im minus 1 single power out of my sets.So Mids has no place for me at all.

Now, Dave_p, I want to point out to you that the diffrence in Radius for Footstomp and Whirling Axe is a mute point.I have no issues tagging the max number of baddies with WA when I solo.I rarely team with this Tanker at all.So radius dont mean diddly.

Also the numbers youv brought up more then prove my point.Yes, Axe does 44 base damage, Footstomp does 63.FS also costs 20 End vs 13 End from WA.FS also takes 20 base seconds to recharge, where as WA takes 14 base seconds.

Now humor me if you will.Take WA and grant it max Recharge, even Slap hasten on it, then do the same for FS.What do you get?The numbers come out even in the long run.WA has to fire off more times to match FS for damage, but SURPRISE!Its got a faster recharge and lower end cost.That would make it about even with FS wouldnt it?Shucks....do I get a cookie for this one?

Mid's shows the initial numbers, nothing else.Doesnt show slotting, how the powers used, nore does the Radius matter.Bottom line and Fact.In a Solo mob situation, SD/Axe beats a SD/SS build in AoE Damage.To point out the radius is stupid because it doesnt matter when they are all in range of EVERY AoE and Cone Radius for the melee set.

Hows that for a stubbern child Dave?

Ohh almost forgot!

Figure in the fact that because WA not only recharges faster, but midigates damage more often, which beats FS in that area as well.Now if your only argument is Damage and Radius, then youv got a pretty weak and flimsy one.Over time the fact that WA fires off more often then FS does, means it has the ability to match FS damage.

So no, Mid's and a DPS calculator can take a flying leap.It you want Alpha Damage without midigation for a Single Target?Sure, go for Mid's.

I tell you what Dave.Send me a Private Message and ill give you the server and name of my Tanker, and ill show you first hand how fast a mob drops on this build.

I cant entirly agree with you about what youv said about Axe, especially when it comes to Whirling Axe.My Tanker is standing at level 40 due to my new interest in a Spines/Invln Scrapper.Either way, 160 damage on average mob wide isnt anything to sneeze at.Iv watched a Claws/Regen Scrapper of the same team level of 40 hit for 200 after a Follow Up with Spin.

As for Cleave being none existant, I dissagree again.On average I hit 2-4 Targets with it when I use it.The max iv ever hit with it has been 6 from a extreemly lucky line up.It hits for KO Blow damage when it goes off.Again, nothing to sneeze at.Pendulum, hits 5 targets and hits for near KO Blow damage.Yet again, nothing to sneeze at.

You are very correct about how my SD/ is doing alot of the work for my Tanker.Its AAO and Sheild Charge more then add a healthy does of damage to my build that doesnt use the fighting pool, nore does it have a heal of any kind.Its a Trade off for survivability and HP recovery that all other armor sets have for Tankers.

Yes, Mace would have been a better choice, even Fire would have been better then that, but I have no issues at all midigating damage and almost wiping a entire mob with my opening Alpha right after I trigger my BU.

My point being that I am fine with Axe being as others perfer to call it a underperformer, because dead is dead as far as im concerned, no matter how you slice it.

Ill acctually be surprised if by level 40 my new Spines/Invln Scrapper does as much damage as my SD/Axe Tanker does on average.

Im going to Agree that Axe on its own is a bit lousy on the damage scale, and that Shield Defense helps it along, but if you look at the help SD/ gives sets like Axe, it makes it out perform power sets like Super Strength.

Just Cleave and Pendulum out perform a SD/SS Built Tanker.I have no douts that ill be hitting 200 Damage on average with Whirling Axe by level 50 on my opening Alpha.I never fight anything less then a 8 man mob.Ill be giggling when I Pendulum and Cleave for KO Blow damages and wonder why anyone would play anything less then Axe or Mace. for a SD/ Tanker.

Im curious why WA just sucks so bad for you.It does wonderfully for me.Mace would have been better hands down as a choice for my Tanker, but I took Axe because I want my Ritki Axe.

Did you slot for damage for WA?Also, why do you feel Cleave is such a none power for you?

By the way, just as many things are resistant to Smashing as they are Lethal damage in this game, and theres plenty of things I can think of off the top of my Head that they are strong agenst, and resistant agenst.

Carnies - Weak to Lethal.
Vazk Zombies & Abominations - Weak to Lethal, Resistant to Smashing.
Robots of many diffrent Types from Counsil - Weak to Smashing, Resistant to Lethal.
Dev Earth Plants - Weak to Lethal, Resistant to Smashing.
Dev Earth Golems - Weak to Smashing, Resistant to Lethal.

Thats a few examples.

Its the same with all powers.Some things will not resist certain damage types.Besides, with a SD/Axe Tank, I have both Smashing and Lethal Damage.So I have a balance for both of those worlds.I can prolly name off 20 diffrent things for every damage type in the game of what resists it, and what is vulnerable to it, but I really dont care to sit down for that long to type it all up.

Also, to say Super Strength and Ice Melee have Superior AoE Capability then Axe is incorrect.

Whirling Axe, Pendulum, and even Cleave raise that scale way above Super Strength for AoE damage.Ice its self has better AoE then Super Strength does, but by no means is it going to out perform Axe.

Electrically Melee?Agreed.I have a Elec/Elec Tanker, so from Experiance it dominates all Melee sets for a Tanker for AoE, with the exception of Fire Melee, but if you put in the midigation vs the lack there of for Fire Melee, it beats Fire as well.

Mace does beat Axe, but I belive they may be fixing the Axe set soon, because its obviously broken like Mace was.They may in the future be switching the amounts of targets acheiveable for Pendulum and Cleave to correct statistics.Making pendulum 10 targets max, and Cleave 5 max.

If they dont, then no big.I still kill like a God anyhow.

Bout time someone other then me speaks up.

I for one finally decided on a Scrapper combo that im very much enjoying right now.For my playing style it adds over all balance for ST, AoE, Def%, Resistance, high survivability, and a heal with bonus increased HPs from Dull Pain.

Im talking about a Spines/Invln.When I get to higher levels ill be adding the Blaze Epic for this Scrapper.

Why a Spines/Invln when I could have made a Elec/SD Scrapper?Simple.I dont use Mids, and I play what I like.I also built it for Concept, instead of building a concept around a Mids build.

The best is whatever you play comfortably with, and excell at.When you start min/maxing a game, it only means imagination and creativity dont apply to you.Nothin wrong with that, not everyone has the none logical spark like some others do.

Min/Maxers are logic based players, where as people like my self dont use logic.We do what feels good.

As for Mids users, my only issue with them is that the program lies more then it tells the truth.Thats why they are concerned with what they belive is the best and try to map out IOs before playing the character.Mainly becuase they cant play anything less.When other players like my self play combos they say are horrible, and excell far better then most who use Mids before IOs ever enter into our minds.

I second this guys post.

Not as well as a Mace or Axe melee based SD/ Tanker.

Sure, it can do the job, just not as well.

Wow, your ignorant.

I would suggjest a SD/Mace build if you want to farm.

I personally run a SD/Axe Tanker and it makes alot of scrappers raise an eyebrow when they see the vicious damage it does.Mace hits 10 Targets with Crowd Control vs my Axe's Pendulum attack that only hits 5.

SD/Fire and SD/Elec arnt horrible choices either, but for flavor you can go with Axe or Mace.Super Strength?No..and no.Pyre Epic for Fireball?Thats upto you, but so far I dont need it on my Tanker.

Here's how my SD/Axe plays out in a Farming situation.

Run into the mob, hit my BU and by the time I do, my AAO has grabbed up the + Damage Bonus.I use Whirling Axe and hit everything for 160 damage, and knock the mob down.I swing my Pendulum attack, and bust 5 targets for 300 damage.I use Cleave and hit 2-4 targets for 400 damage on average, then follow up the last moments of my BU with Shield charge.KA-BOOM!450 damage baby!(Note : These numbers are based on my Tanker being level 40.)

Tankers can do damage.Dont listen to players that dont know.Listen to those that do.

If you want to see how my SD/Axe performs, find me on Freedom.Personal Message me after reading this post, and ill give you my Tankers name, and ill happly show you how it performs.

Question.

Why wouldnt you worry about the DPS for the Tanker?In a team or solo more DPS means enemies fall faster.Meaning you dont have to tank for very long, and that usually negates the need for the Fighting Pool all together.

If you kill it, you dont have to tank it.If people belive that Tankers dont do damage, then they need to find out why they belive in such fantasies.

I have no issues solo, or in a team with my SD/Axe Tanker, and at level 40 he has no Tough or Weave.The same can be said about my Fire/Fire Tanker and my Ice/Ice Tanker.

Its more about how a player thinks and plays his builds then the build its self.

Iv recently discovered im a Min/Maxer, but not in the traditional sense.Where I read Effect numbers first vs damage numbers when it comes to Tankers, Scrappers, and Defenders.

Other traditional Min/Maxers want the best possible personal numbers they can get, even if the set doesnt out perform a lesser played set.Such as Willpower vs Fire Armor or even Dark Armor.

In the long run, many of the lesser played sets get bad reps because people acctually have to work for there gravy, but the pay off is better then the usual with more used sets.

Can a WP/SS Tanker fight well and hold Agro?Absolutly, provided its using its Taunt and keeps hitting something with its ST attacks.

Can a WP/SS Tanker fight better then a SD/Mace Tanker and hold more agro?Absolutly not.The reason why I say this, is because of the massive AoE damage the SD/Mace build pumps out.Yes, by the numbers the SD/Mace Tanker is supposedly weaker in overall Toughness and Survivability.However, the SD/Mace Tanker can survive better by killing everything in its path as if it was a joke.

When you run in with a WP/SS Tank with Rage running, then Foot Stomp for over 160 damage, then start working on the mob with your ST attacks, throwing in a 350 damage KO blow on occassion, your doing alright.

When you run in with a SD/Mace Tank, its a whole diffrent story.You get in the mob, trigger your Build Up, Whirling mace for 160 AoE Damage, Crowd Control upto 10 targets for 250 damage, then use your sheild charge right after it and smack the entire mob for over 450 damage, you just out performed the Min/Maxed WP/SS Mid's build by a HUGE margin using just SOs.Lets not forget Clobber and the rest of the Amp'd ST attacks Mace gives you from AAO.

Dark Armor has ALOT of tools, and is better used with a Melee set like Electrical Melee or Dark Melee.The goal being Global Recharge, Recovery, and Regen when you aspire to IOs.

Can Dark Armor out perform Willpower?Yes, yes it can.

At higher levels on my Spines/Invln Scrapper, ill be very capable of Tanking for teams.Are Scrappers ment to Tank?No, they are not.Can they Tank?Yes, they can.

Ok, I say stupid stuff alot, but these 2 sugjestions take the cake.

I have a high level Dark/Dark Defender, and half the time I dont even bother using anything past tar patch while my Blast set floors the mobs -toHit.By telling you this, I can easly tell you that using just Dark Miasma and the Fluffy is MORE THEN ENOUGH to have extreem survivability on a Dark/DP build because Dark/ offers way more -toHit debuffs then the Dark Blasts I use.

Not to mention the Fluffy alone Tanks and auto heals, AND drops the mobs ToHit even more.Your safe without taking Pool powers.

Taking Air Superiority and Acrobatics is the stupidest thing iv ever heard of when it comes to Dark Miasma.

It irritates me that people like you give such horrible advice.

2 Builds stick out when it comes to the 2 mentioned power sets.

Fire/Willpower
Claws/Invln

Iv played both of these builds.The Fire/Willpower is just fugly when it comes to AoE all around balance, and the Claws/Invln tanked pretty well.

*Cracks Knuckles*

I got some answers for you on this set for you.

The majority of players are lazy and dont feel like trying something that takes a moment of thought to play and slot properly.Dark Armor isnt that bad of a set at all.Its one of the better ones in fact.

They call it End Heavy because its Toggle Intensive.Not a big issue really.Theres plenty of Sets that are Toggle Intensive as well.Like Ice Armor for example.

Here's the Skinny on why its unpopular.

1) Its Ugly.

2) The Common Player doesnt slot correctly to even out the Endurance issues of there Tanker when they use this set.Nore do they choose powers correctly.They do the retarded thing and skip powers like Death Shroud and Cloak of Darkness and pick up powers like Combat Jumping.

3) The Common Player doesnt want to have to think while playing the game.So a auto set like Willpower or being in Granite Armor is more desired to keep thinking at a minimum.

4) Number Crunchers perfer Mids.Which doesnt offer any realiable information at all for most of anything in the way of CoX.This is also another lazy tactic of the Common Player to choose the best auto sets to keep them selves alive if they feel the need to walk off and make a sandwich and do poor damage for a Tanker.Then run around telling everyone Tankers do Piddly Damage when they clearly do rather good to hefty damage by people who acctually know how to play a Tanker.

Now, thats the skinny on why most people dont use this armor set, or armor sets like it.

I personally took one of the heavier Endurance Eating builds for 2 of my Tankers, and thy have barly any Endurance Issues at all.

My SD/Axe Tank is level 40 right now, and has 3 running toggles.These tuggles have only a single End Redux SO in them.Thats it, no need for any more on this build.It has 1 So of end Redux on its ST attacks, and 2 End Redux SOs for every Cone and AoE Attack its got.Except for Shield Charge.Thats ones 3 Damage and 3 Recharge SOs.It only takes a little over 11 End to use anyhow.It doesnt have the Fighting Pool, or Combat Jumping.Things are dead way to fast to matter.

My Ice/Ice Tanker is simple.1 End Redux SO in all 5 of his Armor Toggles.Max Recharge for Absorb Energy and 3 Defense SOs, and every ST attack has 1 End Redux SO and 2 for every AoE/Cone Attack.Endurance and Defense % is a joke on this Tanker.It nearly Soft Caps by using Absorb Energy and it doesnt have the Fighting Pool or Combat Jumping.

I dont ever take any Pool powers beyond Swift, Health, and Stamina by level 40.Leaving my Epic pool wide open for the last 10 levels of the character.

Both of the Tankers I have arnt missing but 1 power from both of there sets total.

My SD/Axe is only missing Grant Cover.It has the rest of the SD/ powers and every single /Axe power.

My Ice/Ice is the same way.He is only Lacking Taunt from his secondary.You dont really need Taunt on a Friggin Ice Tanker, ever.Other then the lacking of that power, he has every power in his armor set, and Taunts the only thing missing from his secondary.

Dark Armor is a good set.If anyone complains they are having Endurance issues with that Armor set, reguardless of the melee secondary taken with it.Its there own fault for being lazy and not thinking about how to better the character and fix it.

Heres a HUGE fact.

People belive powers like Combat Jumping, Stealth, Manuvers, and the Fighting Pool powers such as Tough and Weave matter more then they really do.By taking these powers, they short change the armor set, and many times abusivly skip powers from the melee secondary the Tanker has taken.

Iv littlerally watched a guy that had a level 30 DA/FM Tank say he is going to erase the Tanker because of the massive endurance issues it has.

The guy was running 4 Armor Toggles, Combat Jumping, and Tough and Weave all at the same time.thats 7 Friggin Toggles.He even Skipped Cloak of Darkness because he belived it kept him from holding agro.So not only was he missinformed, but he was trying to supliment the lacking of that power by taking Combat Jumping and Weave.

Just to get Weave, you have to take 2 other Fighting pool Powers, and adding in Combat Jump to the mix means the guy gave up a single power and tried to replace it with wasting 4 power slots.

The damage to his offensive capabilities was very clear.He had Scorch and Taunt...thats it.. I see alot of players making Tankers this way.Cant understand why they goto such extreems for no reason.

He could have very easly used my method of slotting and taking every one of the powers you can get from both your standard build sets and been just fine.

Another common missinformed bit of information most players have when it comes to this set is the way it works.

Cloak of Darkness doesnt give very much Def %.Not that big of a deal, and ill tell you why.

1) Cloak of Fear grants -toHit on anything it effects.Adding a Additional bonus to all Defense to be added to Cloak of Darkness.

2) People belive by taking Death Shroud and taking Cloak of Fear they will negate the Fear Effect of the Aura.Yes, this is true, but it doesnt effect the -toHit debuff granted by it.Not to mention that if the mob gets hit by even 1 point of damage, it negates it anyhow, so its retarded to belive that teaming wont effect it either.Skipping Shroud of Death is asking for trouble, no matter how you slice it.Them tiny ticks of damage add up, and people aviod that concept and have lower DPS on a number of builds.Mids also points people to builds without a Damage Aura.(Mids can bite me.)

3) People dont like having to stop long enough to pick up a IO to fix the Knock back hole and complain about lack of immob resistance.Iv never once had a Immob issue on a DA/ build, and iv never taken Combat Jumping to attempt to fix it and drain even more Endurance from my build.

4) People dont like Resistance based sets.Again, it means they will have to work harder for a huge pay off with IOs.It costs a little more, but by granting more HP and Regen to a Dark Armor build, you become way more capable and powerful then a player that stuffed CJ and weave onto the build to get a high Def % that ill be taken away the moment a bad guy hits you with a single -def attack.

5) Some people are extreemly Lazy and lack the understanding that not all sets are ment to function the same way.So they fail misserably at playing it, and them run around mouthing about the set and granting it a bad name.

Granted the idea of making a DP character, reguardless if its a Corruptor or a Defender Class with Kinetics or Radiant Aura makes me raise a eye-brow and say NO WAY IN HELL!Thats just my personal opinion and shouldnt offend anyone in any way.

I find Rad/ and Kin/ to be lack luster sets for any AT other then the possibilities of a capable Controller.This also is just my opinion.

However appauling I find the use of these sets, theres plenty of ways to fix the NO ROOM issue.

First one is my personal favorite.Use Ninja Run instead of taking a Travel pool.

By level 40 you can easly have Swift, Health, and Stamina on any character build, and be shy only 1 single power between both of your chosen sets for your build.

Iv been curious as to why people have such a issue with lacking powers and having to choose carefully from a staggering amount of power choices due to bad build designs.

The easiest example would be to use the example of 1 of my characters.My SD/Axe Tanker.

It has every single power from top to bottom for its Axe Secondary, and is only missing Grant Cover from his Shield set at level 40.Yes, he has Swift, Health, and Stamina from the Fittness Pool as well.Currently using SOs, he has no Endurance Issues, nore does he have any issues in the Damage/Defense Departments either.

I still have starting at level 41 a Epic Pool choice.This is how I build every character iv got.I litterally dont short change my builds like many people do by taking the Fighting Pool, as well as the Stealth Pool, or even any of the Travel Pools.

Too many people build for Defense, or whatever they feel the character needs, and the majority of the time it gimps it completly.

Iv been capable of taking builds like a Traps/Rad and Tanking for a team when a Tanker couldnt be found or we had a horrible Tanker on the team.I held the Agro and dished good damage because I didnt have to skip anything, but I did skip Web Grenade, because Honsetly...really?Same thing with my Dark/Dark Defender.It could grab the Agro, and hold it like a Tanker.

None of my builds need to take the Fighting Pool, or a Travel or Stealth Pool.

As for DP/Kin being the new Hotness?I havent seen one on Freedom yet.Iv seen alot of DP/EM Blasters, and like 1 DP/Dev, and I dont even recall seeing any Defenders using DP.I rarely play Villians Side, so I cant make a statement for sure on Corruptors.

Long Story short, if you say youv got no room on your build to take a power, then you may be doing something wrong and short changing the ability of your character for a lesser helpful power from the pools.