Fire_Away

Well said A_F. I could not agree more... especially about the closed beta comments. Love the MA. But it's very disheartening to me to see that many pointed out the rating flaws very early on in closed beta and continued in open beta. Yet no changes were even attempted.

I know that that's water under the bridge. But the right thing to do now is have the star system die in the fire as you said.

Great post A_F.

Umm... Sorry that I rose to the bait on this one. But since I did, I feel obligated to make one last reply on the subject.

The issue of the relative merits of dev choice arcs is, of course, subjective and invites both comparisons to non-DC arcs and controversy. It's a difficult enough subject to discuss with straight talk in the context of the forum. Adding a layer of satire, obfuscation or false modesty would seem to me to have an effect opposite of promoting "healthy discussion".

Anyway, to the OP: Sincere congratulations on your selection to Dev's Choice. Thanks also for the insight into some of the "baggage" associated with the award. Most of us (including, I'm sure, yours truly) will never experience this side of MA "fame".

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Hi there!

I'm Caleb Nokama, although most of you know me as "...wait...who the <censored> is THIS <censored>, and why is he posting <censored>?" ...etc., etc., etc.

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Man, no offense, but remind me not to ever ask you for the time... you'd probably respond with detailed instructions on how to make a clock.

I find the current lot of DC arcs a mixed bag in entertainment value. IMHO, the worst of worst boil down to little more than tired cliches (let's do the time warp again...and again... and again seems to be a dev fav). Others are more original and a few are quite cleaver.

All, by their mere status alone, get hundreds of plays and are therefore subject to intense scrutiny and criticism. It comes with the territory.

Not much else to say on the subject. Quite frankly, I'm more concerned about finding those few precious "diamonds" out there that don't have the recognition than I am worried about the "shabby" treatment DC arcs have received in the forums.

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The ratings system is fundamentally and irreparably flawed. The problem is not the abusers. The problem is the built-in incentives for abuse. Any solution that doesn't involve removing those incentives is not a solution, as the abusers will always find a way around whatever obstacle you implement.

I want MA to evolve into greater functionality and versatility, not less. I'm already wrestling with its current limitations. I want to be able to do more with it. Watering it down for the sake of propping up some ridiculously broken ratings system is just... completely befuddling and "bass ackwards" to me. It's entirely the wrong direction in which to proceed.

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Wow! Exceptional insight in two short paragraphs. I'm with you! Hope someone that can actually make a difference is listening. I happen to also believe that when it comes to the MA ratings system: "nothing" would be preferable to what we have now and "anything" more that would improve search functionality would be very worthwhile.

Everybody (should) know that the dice are loaded by now.

From the griefing on the low end to the buddy boy padding on the high end, the whole rating thing is indeed entirely bogus.

A few may still be naive enough to believe otherwise (like I recently read a theory that ppl were being knocked out of the HoF based on "expectations not being met" rather than griefing... yeah riight.)

Lots of others know it's a "game within a game" and play it as such (on the high side for badges, or just to be good to friends and the low side to grief). Some, like me, just refuse to rate at all until this is fixed.

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I had one of the Leaders in my SG Quit, and cancel both his accounts just last night.

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Hope you wound up with his stuff.

I feel confident ample opportunities will remain for earning prestige after the current controversy blows over.

Your last reply showed a lot of class 37. Good show. Believe me, I've done my share of "flipping out" in the forums so you are not alone.

Capt very well summarizes my thoughts on the subject at hand. No intent at throwing rocks at some of the more recent strides (both wrt to the Anniversary issue or bases). But I sure would welcome further base functionality and improvements.

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I'm sure by now you've all seen Posi's Address discussing I15. He makes no mention of Base tweaks/changes at all.

I also saw the I15 Overview, and it doesn't mention Bases either.

Guess we get no loving this issue?

Anyone else heard or seen anything?



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There's just no accounting for some people is there? This is the Fifth Anniversary! The Devs are manually running an event for us players during what would be their off-time and announcing the next issue... and all you can think to do is complain about one aspect of the game that rarely gets announced anyway (one that a relatively small number of folks are going to get excited about)? Wow, just wow!

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Wow is right... overreact much 37? I did not read any "complants" from the OP at all, just a couple of questions regarding I15 and bases. More than a few of us have been waiting for more stuff for bases to shake loose for like years. What's the big harm in asking the question? Geez.

Rule #1 - Put in the time and effort to make something YOU are proud of. If, say, a couple of your best buddies would enjoy playing it too, that's all the better. Then have fun with it. The rest is all BS... including necessarily heeding the self proclaimed and self appointed "experts" or critics that don't want to push boundries or have their own agenda, writing clicks, or set of rules on what an arc should or should not contain.

Rule #1a - Have respect for the efforts of others to include being original with your ideas and tolerant of even those who may do things that may not meet your definition of "good".

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What if I also "created" it with a leaky pen on an IHOP napkin, and bribed the waitress to countersign verification of a fabricated date before my subscription began?

Yes... yes... the plan is good. Now I just need to get the plutonium and 150 lbs. of industrial carpet shampoo... yesss...

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Do you have any AE arcs yet? Cause if they are anything like this I want to play them.

Oh yeah, I wish we could easily change SG name too cause I inherited a real stinker (so there, something remotely on topic).

I'm afraid it all just goes to show ya... you reap what you sow. The whole base salvage conversion thing was ill conceived to start with but implemented (over the objection of many) anyway. Now we have a bona fide "mess" with a flip flop on badges (with a potential flip flop to still something else in the near future).

While the explanation is appreciated, I doubt it means a whole lot to the folks who still have to look forward to the "joy" of what can be thousands of mouse clicks...only now with no credit at all for the effort.

Yeah I can see how some people might remain a tad steamed over this.

Hope the "teaser", whatever it turns out to be, makes all the ill will associated with this worthwhile.

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The forums are a great way to comunicate with the devs, they've made that plain. And they are aware of the things that we the players want. But realize that they're going to do what they're going to do.

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You are right on this point...and it was a painful lesson for me personally to learn. I have played CoX for hours at a time just about every day for just about four years (no real life here to speak of). I spent three years just [u]reading[u] the forums in the hopes of grasping the major game issues and hoping that I did not come across as ignorant when I finally did post (did not work... sometimes I come across as ignorant anyway). I don't claim to be an expert but I figure I know as much about this game as I do about most anything. And I jumped into this whole forum deal ready to make a lot of things that were (are) "wrong" totally "right".

My "entering argument" was that CoX is a "great game", the devs are a bunch of super smart people hard at work and my input was only going to make a great thing even better!

Anyway, my point is (and this really isn't a "slam" of devs per se... more of a statement of fact), I've come to the conclusion that the [u]best[u] you can do is hope you can have some influence on positive change. Occasionally you do...many times you don't.

For example...you would think that it would be pretty much a "no brainer" to incorporate some of the decorative items that are in game into bases (let's say everything in Pocket D since I hear about pool tables, pinball machines, barware, etc. a lot). My latest hope is that the I14 architect tools will have much of this kind of "stuff" and that it will be available for bases. Will it happen? Only the devs know and they ain't saying.

The fact is my priorities are not necessarily the dev's priorities. What I (even "we" as in many players) want is not necessarily what is going to happen...immediately, "soon" or even at all. But many of us keep plugging away at the "influence positive change thing" anyway... and when it does "work" it's a thing of beauty indeed. I've come to celebrate those times.

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My feedback on bases is all subjective.

First, although it's water under the bridge and I know we're not going back now...the removal of base salvage makes no sense whatsoever, and was not well implemented. In an attempt for, as we were told, "simplicity", a new form of salvage was created (brainstorms), hundreds of convert recipes were created, storage was greatly reduced meaning that event salvage overflows in many bases, all base crafting and empowerment station recipes have been tripled, and the providing of salvage for bases has gone from something the whole group contributes to, to something the base architect has to provide from his own pocket. (Yes, theoretically everyone could contribute...but how many is that happening.) With all the issues facing bases, THIS is what they spend their time on? And apparently no one thought of the side issues of event salvage, or the way people used the conversion of invention salvage to base salvage for the crafter badges. It's a done deal, we're stuck with it, but it was a bad idea, and very poorly handled. If you'd talked to us about it before it was a fait accomplis, maybe we'd understand, and could have helped deal with the side effects and craft a better solution. This change, and even more so the way it was handled, has cost NCNC a lot of goodwill with me.

Next, there's rent. On a purely personal level, POWER being my main group, the reduction of rent is nice. However, I also run some groups of rarely-used players with a small base that owed no rent. They now will be charged rent. And because they are rarely used, they'll likely find bases shut off, and with the bugs where bases get into a 'you can't get in because you owe rent' but the SG registrar says 'you don't owe rent' requiring a petition...the time it takes to get it fixed will mean that the bases are now useless (because when those rarely played characters are played, it's for a short time).

Furthermore...what is the purpose of rent, from a game design standpoint? It used to be both a limit on excessive growth (you can't put every bit of prestige into the base without looking at the rent costs) and an incentive to keep active and have everyone contribute to keep the SG going. It was overly burdensome, particularly for large groups, but at least there was an identifiable reason for it. The reduction to being based on plot size greatly reduced the burden, and made it easier for small groups to get going. The I13 rent is so trivial that, at least if you have a few 50s in your group willing to run in SG mode, it might as well not exist. Now, it's only an annoyance for large groups, sending someone to atlas park or port oakes periodically to click on a man to keep it going. And for small SGs where the rent went up, again it's not the amount that's the issue, but that people have to periodically pay the rent--and if people don't play in that SG that often, the base may find itself shut down.

Goals and motivations are good, it's why we play games, to do stuff in the game. Annoyances aren't, they are interruptions in the game. Rent is too small to be a goal or motivation, and the process of paying rent is an annoyance. Either rent should be increased...or eliminated. If you increase the rent, it shouldn't be based on things like storage...and the very small groups shouldn't be hit by it. If you don't think you can eliminate, at least reduce the annoyance...give us an option to have the rent paid automatically when it is due (presuming there is sufficient prestige).

Pricing changes...appreciated and particularly the refund. Though I think there was one area missed...the second step towards growing a base. The one where you go from an oversight center to separate energy and control rooms, with the basic purchasable power unit and control units. Having taken a few groups over that step (and having had other groups stall out at it), lowering that step would be great.

One last thing, and in many ways, it's all of those. It's what an ex-president would call "the vision thing". Does NCNC have a vision about what bases should be, and if so, can you express it? From the cheap seats, it looks like you started with a vision of "bases are for PVP in raiding" and when that didn't work you, you've sort of been muddling along, tweaking things based on feedback and what you saw as problems. If you do have a vision, it doesn't show. Clearly, you want PVP to be part of what bases are, and while it has promise, it's not going to be the whole, or even the majority, of what the players want from bases. So...what does a big SG do with its base, what should be the experience with it. How about a small SG, say 8 people who team together once a week (or so). From the vision, flows questions of price, rent, security and permissions (much of the base design is based on big SGs...except the storage permission system really only fits the small SG). Bases are a fun and useful addition to the game, it deserves some direction and coherence.

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Subjective

This was a very thoughtful and well-written analysis and I agree completely.

My only other comment is the communications on the whole topic of bases needs to be more of two way street. You have heard from us (the player community) ad nauseam. When do we get to hear more from you (the developers)... especially about "the vision thing"?

I was thrilled to see one of my villain toons make it to login City Scoop ad fame . Here's the full screenshot showing more of our base bar.

This was made prior to the relaxing of pathing rules. The possibilities these days are of course much greater.

Base Repricing
1) How will the repricing of bases affect you personally? It'll mean my vg will be able to expand 2-3 plot sizes and afford defensive items.
2) Will you dismantle your base to gain the additional prestige from the repricing? Yes indeed.
3) How long would this process take you if you were to engage in this practice? Estimate 6-8 hours, possibly more.
4) What are the positive and negative concerns regarding repricing? Lower prices are a good thing. No negatives regarding repricing per se. But I am concerned about being "raid ready" after this rebuild with the new pathing. I would hate to have to rebuild my base still again to allow raids.
5) How will this feature affect you long term and short term? Short term it's a major rebuild effort to take advantage of greatly reduced prices. Long term it's a major rent savings and expanded room capacity to hopefully hold new items.

Base Salvage Exchange to Invention Salvage
1) What is the negative effect on your base for this feature implementation? There are many negative effects. It's starts with a tedious salvage coversion process. Then there is the extremely limited storage capacity for both IO and event salvage. There is the idea of the need to play "Russian Roulette" to attempt to convert brain storms into meaningful IOs for crafting. Next there's the increased competition for IO's across the board (bases, dual builds, empowerment stations, etc.). This has got to cause prices to rise, especially in the short term by a great deal. A burden will undoubtedly be placed on sg leaders to personally provide the IO salvage for crafting. In addition, many of the recipes (for tier 1 items) are unreasonable. Toss in security worries for IO theft, the removal of a "group asset" (base salvage) to craft base items and you pretty much have the WORST measure ever imposed on the base building community. I have strongly opposed this since closed beta.
2) What is the positive effect on your base for this feature implementation? There are NO positive effects on my base for this feature implementation. We would be FAR better off either leaving base salvage as is or removing crafting recipes all together and going with a direct prestige buy system.
3) How long will it take you to adjust to learning this new system? I've "learned". I just hate it.
4) What side effects to this system do you currently see from transitioning the old to new system? I pretty much covered it in number 1) above... and the effects are all bad.
5) What security concerns do you have regarding this change? This will be a quantum increase in theft of both whatever base salvage left in the bins as well as any brain storms and especially IOs. Lots of sg's and inviduals will be hurt by this.


Additional Notes:
Communications between the base builders and the devs is at an all time low.

If this base salvage conversion goes live, the outcry will be worse than at present as many experience the detrimental impacts first hand.

Ok, if you insist...I'll play

How about everything in the thread "Decorative Base Items We Want... and Exist" + all the decorative items in the thread "Consolidated List of Base Suggestions"? There's more of course ("Base Items We'd Like to See", "Base Items We'd like to see, Mk. 2", etc, etc, etc) but these would make a great start

Done and I've contributed more than anyone. Next issue.

Sorry for the snark.

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Mad... I have a lot of respect for you, so please just realize that any snark you're seeing in this post isn't directed at you.

That being said... why? Why waste our time making yet another list that they're just going to flush down the toilet like they did the last 2 lists we made, like they did the list the PvPers made.

Seriously man, why?

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I reluctantly must agree. How many of these kind of things are we going to do? Lots of great item ideas found in other places have layed fallow for years. MadScientist, you know what these are better than most anyone. Heck, you're the person that did much of the thoughtful compiling of them.

But no disrespect to your "Mad" skills intended. And if this is how you enjoy spending time, who am I to criticize? The ideas are already overwhelmingly available though...just waiting to be implemented.

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Part IV Upkeep

New Rent is calculated by certain items you have in base.

Enhancement Storage: 100 Prestige
Inspiration Storage: 100 Prestige
Public Salvage Storage: 100 Prestige
Empowerment Tables: 100 Prestige

For each item you have in your base of the above its 100 prestige.

This means the max rent most bases will have is approximately 2000 (as there is no reason to keep lower level empowerment stations aside from decoration)


Vaults do NOT have a prestige upkeep associated with them, so most will truly only see 1900 rent per cycle.

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Previously there were other items besides these that had upkeep, I wouldn't be so sure that the Rent is going to stay "negligible" by the time I13 goes Live.

I don't think they've mentioned this in patch notes (not that I recall) I would wait a bit - before rejoicing about this...

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Yeah but...

The most expensive upkeep item found in closed beta was 300 for the Supercollider.

IF they stick with the program it's really hard to imagine that upkeep will come close to the first rent payment plateau we have now which I believe is 20K. The 2000 max figure statement may be incorrect however.

But if they don't stick with the program and go back to plot size or something, all bets are of course off.

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OK. I just finished reading through all 14 pages of posts for this topic. Luckily it is a slow work day but I do have a few questions before this goes live.

1) Do we get the difference in costs from our base rooms when they switch to new price or should I break down my base now and use the prestige when I13 goes live to rebuild at a lower cost. I understand the issue of the telporters so will rebuild all of them and hold them until I13 goes back.

2) I have not seen any mention on the Medical badges to reduce the difficulty of obtaining the medical room base items. Those are two of the hardest SG badges to obtain. I had hoped that they would be corrected with the rest of the base cost changes to make them easier for small SGs to obtain. Have not seen any mention of that issue here.

I appreciate the work so far in keeping us informed and hope you can assist with my two issues so I can start planning now about the direction of my base.

Thanks,

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When you sell an item, room, etc. (now, later... whenever) you recoup what you oiginally paid in prestige for that item. When you buy an item, you buy at the new price.

The empath badge requirement was reduced to 100,000,000.

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Sorry to say this, but after reading everything, this just made base building a lot more complicated and cost prohibitive. Sure you save on the prestige for room/plot costs but the i/o salvage crafting costs are a bit high. Granted there are multiple recipes for each item (that in itself is very confusing), but having rare i/o salvage for basic items such as TP pads is too much. I can understand using the rare i/o salvage for tier 3 items or even some of the tier 2 items, but tier 1 items should not have to cost rare i/o salvage.

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I'm by no means defending this at all but... I point out
If you have a lot of base salvage, you can make a lot of rare IO salvage (but it's random on what you get). Such is life under conversion.

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Understood, but what if I was starting a new base from scratch...I won't have any old base salvage to convert. Come on, a Hami Goo for a basic TP pad 0.o? (I know, that only one recipe but still...)

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Yep, I hear you, you are correct, and I fully agree.

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so what I am seeing is that as far as IO salvage requirements go...they went right ahead and did all the stuff we feared and told them not to do and made it extremely retartedly complicated on top of that......great....and people wonder why we were pissed in the first place.

Can someone tell me how the placement costs are being handled if you already have items crafted and sitting on your person ready to place? I'm on a hard deadline at work and wont be able to even get in game till maybe Sat.

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In closed beta testing, placement costs for items crafted but not yet placed were what they were under I12. If you want lower placement costs, you must re-craft.

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Sorry to say this, but after reading everything, this just made base building a lot more complicated and cost prohibitive. Sure you save on the prestige for room/plot costs but the i/o salvage crafting costs are a bit high. Granted there are multiple recipes for each item (that in itself is very confusing), but having rare i/o salvage for basic items such as TP pads is too much. I can understand using the rare i/o salvage for tier 3 items or even some of the tier 2 items, but tier 1 items should not have to cost rare i/o salvage.

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I'm by no means defending this at all but... I point out
If you have a lot of base salvage, you can make a lot of rare IO salvage (but it's random on what you get). Such is life under conversion.

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Where does this conversion take place? Is it automagic or do you go to the SG registrar or someone? If automagic, what happens to the Base Salvage in the Bins versus carried? What happens to Event salvage in the Bins? Are they counted against the new cap of 30? What about stored components in storage?

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Can of worms, officially opened. Conversion is via one brain storm idea at a time as Plasma said. Base salvage in bins stays in bins until converted. Invention salvage counts against the 30 cap.

Commence Firing: Maybe in another thread perhaps?

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Do we know if rent costs are staying the same? That would give me pause before upgrading some of my bases' plots. No need to upgrade the size if a possible SG slowdown will lock me out of my base or make me tear it all back out to afford it again.

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Rent is now apparently based on the number of storage items (maybe some other items too?). It's undoubtedly a LOT lower than it is on Live. We were never given info on how rent had changed (or even that it changed at all), but some people were able to work out that it was based on the number of storage items they had.

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Wait, what???? Are you telling me that my tiny SG is going to see its rent go through the roof because we have 18 storage items???

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It's like 100 per storage item... some of the other crafted items are like 200 or 300 each.

Unless you pay zero rent now, the reduction in rent is drastic...and no longer based on plot size.

I could not agree with you more Mindscythe! Well said.

And to you Ashcraft, don't let a few detractors get you down.

You're doing very well!