Failsight
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Posts
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Joined
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Quote:Plenty survivable if you're considering regular tanking duties for a team. Seriously, most people forget what teaming with non-power gamers is like.Originally Posted by Dersk
Make an elec/fire tanker and tell me he's "survivable". -
So I'm playing around with St0n3y's Mid's I16 beta planner and cooking up some future Tanker builds. I've already got my (practically) obligatory SD/ElM planned out (very easy to do, knowing both sets well), but was looking for another combo. Looking at ElA/SS, though...all I can say is that I'm very impressed with ElA's mitigation numbers. Especially where they can go with IOs.
But what really blows my mind is just how well ElA covers up for SS's downsides: slow recharging signature powers and Rage crashes. Cutting recharges in half for KO Blow and Footstomp is so easy on many builds with IOs that it becomes hard not to do with ElA. Double stacking Rage, if desired, is also easier, but more importantly, with the rech debuff resist, being stuck with the Rage defense penalty is in almost all practicality not going to happen. What's more, ElA's Power Sink seems to be the perfect counter to the end crash on Rage.
SS also has enough skippable powers to grab both Tough from Fighting, as well as a few Ancillaries--Pyre being a very sexy choice, as Energy, at this point, looks like significant overkill.
I've never been this excited over ElA before. Energize has made it survivable. Tanker mods make it tasty. Paired with a recognised high damage secondary (as Tankers go) that is dependant on recharge for performance and bam! A significantly tough, extremely end efficient, relatively high damage (as Tankers go) juggernaut. -
Tried copying one since last night. Still hasn't shown up, and it's afternoon here. It's definitely borked.
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Quote:I actually had a lot of slots left over with my particular build, so I ended up 6-slotting it, at which point, it makes a very solid T-9. Some combination of 3 Heal IOs, 2 Resist IOs, and an End Mod. I've yet to die with it up.Originally Posted by Kierthos
How many slots should I plan on putting in One with the Shield? I mean, is it considered a power that I should be looking at six-slotting, or what?
Basically, I just dinged 41, and I'm wondering if I should take it now (yeah, yeah, I know, I've had it available since 32, but I haven't really seemed to need it so far), so I can work towards six-slotting it as I level to 50, or if I should take Foot Stomp now and work towards six-slotting that (I'm thinking the Obliteration set for that one).
Heck, I think I've yet to die since I hit soft cap. -
Quote:It's (probably) not so much that switching powers around is a lot of work (I highly think it's not), but that the necessary respeccing needed to be doled out to Inv characters (and only Inv characters) is time consuming. It's easier to give respecs to all Tankers or all players, I'd imagine.Originally Posted by Grey_Pilgrim
That probably would be the best thing, other than swapping RPD and TI. However, swapping power order seems to be a BIG thing to do (not sure why, if it's just a dev philosophy like the cottage rule, or if it's a lot of work, or what), as the devs don't do it very much.
However, if Gauntlet or some other inherent part of the Tanker AT changed, I could see slipping in some order swapping as possible. A lot of changes happened during the recent Dom changes (though notably, powers weren't moved around, just heavily modified). -
Quote:Well, technically, over a long enough period of time, 5% defence on its own is noticeable. Not very useful by any practical means, but will numerically still be of benefit.Originally Posted by Call_Me_Awesome
I see absolutely no good reason to swap Tough Hide and RPD; in the low levels a mere 5% defense buff is, for all practical purposes, meaningless. It doesn't become really useful until you have defense from other sources to stack with it, which means after Invincibility.
I'd have to say I can't support moving a power that actually is useful at lower levels (RPD), albeit generally more so around 22, with one that really doesn't make any real difference until after Invincibility anyway (TH)... which, by some odd reason, is exactly where it comes available.
Swapping Temp. Invuln with RPD however is a slam dunk for AT's that get it as a secondary. If you were actually going to swap anything else, then swap Invincibility and Resist Elements; THAT would be a useful change. Not necessary by any stretch, but it would be a useful change.
Going from 0% to 5% of defense is nearly meaningless... but going from 25% to 30% is quite significant, and going from 40% to 45% actually DOUBLES the amount of protection. Defense works best when the values get higher. You'll never notice 5% of defense, but you most assuredly will notice the difference 40% to 45% makes.
Bottom line, there's no valid reason to swap RPD and TH and there are very valid reasons to leave them as-is. This would be a poor change and a nerf to low level Invuln.
In any case, resists tend to be handier in the low levels because of the correctly explained nature of defence.
Ultimately, while there are some beneficial possible changes, I honestly would be surprised to see the Devs alter Inv's build order and require every Inv in the game to have to respec with practically no end game benefit.
If the Devs wanted to put that much effort into just Inv, they might as well go all out and do something useful by allowing the first two tier powers to be selectable at level one instead, as has been previously mentioned. About as much of a pain (handing out respecs to everyone, which is nothing new, compared to handing out respecs individually to only Inv characters) and far more beneficial to the game populace. -
Quote:Just highlighting the operative, and most disagreeable (in a polite sense) word here: people are showing it's not necessary. What your proposed changes may likely be are "beneficial" or "closer to optimal," but by no means necessary, as it's pretty well pointed out that the set is doing just fine as is. It could be tweaked to be better, but it's not necessary. And if it's not necessary, yet requires a lot of headache for the Devs (i.e. needing to give freespecs out to every Invul player in the game), it's likely not to happen.Originally Posted by Profit
It is nitpicky. I agree, but its necessary. As was stated earlier, RPD gives S/L resist which is already covered by TI in that early stage. TH gives 5% def to all except psi. Now, lets not forget one important factor according to our devs, 1 def = 2 resist. So 5% def is like a 10% resist spike to everything.
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Quote:Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I don't like the idea of Elec getting a self heal if the rest of the set remains the same for resistance values, etc.
Survivability-wise, it's always been a very solid set. It also has a lot of perks.
In general, I don't like defensive sets with lots of utility and perks having a lot of survivability, more survivability than sets that don't have a lot of perks. WP is bad enough for that already.
High resistance values, a damage aura, -end debuffs, protection to end drains and slows, increased recharge and movement speed, a self-end recovery power...
And now the addition of a self heal and regeneration increase; what amounts to a mini panic click in addition to their tier 9. Even if it's locked at a two minute recharge, that's still a bit much.
No sir, I don't like this at all.
.TBH, Resistance-only sets actually need a lot of perks in order to get by, considering the likelihood of attacks (and more importantly, debuffs) landing. Even the much vaunted Granite Tanker relies on a very significant amount of defence, as well as having available a Dull Pain power and a regen boost and end drain resist.Quote:Originally Posted by Traegus
what do you like????? really, do you just play devils advocate for the heck of it?
A singular heal on a set that has no health boost is by far not overpowering. Having no means of itself getting significant amounts of defence automatically requires a means of recovering endurance or resisting end drain. Fire has only relatively recently received slow resists, along with Inv, showing a trend in Dev thinking.
And finally, where a set like Fire is supposed to receive a significant damage output boost, ElA gets end drain and end drain resist, both of which are really only situationally useful (where Fire's damage boost is currently either too slow to recharge for too little to non-Fire sets [FE] or also very situational [Burn]).
In short: ElA's utility is either necessary and/or is far from overpowering. Not that what I say will change J_B's mind. Just putting it out there to consider.
I've also never understood why people think resistance-only sets would be über. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Kruunch, one other thing I thought of here:
The old Herding methods took a great deal of advantage of the mob stacking bug, where a good deal of mobs could exist in one spot, allowing for great stackability of mobs in a very tight spot.
This bug has since been fixed. What this would mean now is, if you were to herd up an entire map, and brought them to one spot, there's no way that you could hold aggro on all of them, since you'd be losing aggro from not being able to affect them all with your aggro aura or gauntlet (and trying to cycle Taunt among a couple hundred enemies wouldn't be possible).
I would think that this would lead to significant team deaths due to aggro loss if massive herding was performed.
Hmmm...maybe it wouldn't be such a bad thing... ;-)How in the world is that different from now?! You conga line enough baddies, can't hold the aggro, people die, and multiple Tankers would be of benefit. With no aggro cap, you have less issue pulling those enemies, you won't be able to hold all the aggro due to no more mob stacking, people die, and multiple Tankers would be of benefit.Quote:Originally Posted by Kruunch
Or ... you might need another Tanker.
*gasp*
Tanker stackability fixed!
OMGWTFBBQ!!!!
(seriously I think you are correct ... another horse I hadn't beat to death for the pundits yet)
I see no benefit to mass herding if, ultimately, you can't hold the aggro anyway now.
Just plow instead of tractor. -
The thing is...I can't really see Whips having a lot of AoE control (that lasts--maybe an AoE stun? Not sure if I'd want that anyway), nor do I see it fitting with the mixed range/melee of Dom secondaries (what do you do with the whip when the enemy is right in your face?).
It works fine for an MM pet set because there's...3 attacks, all ranged, and that's it.
However, depending on just how creative and non-gadget-y the new Pistols gets, I may reconsider my opinion. -
Quote:Wow, it's a good thing you weren't calling out people just now for telling you how they like to play...Originally Posted by Kruunch
Yeah we all know about how you (and Sorciere) play the game though.
ZZZzzzzzzzz.
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IMO, it basically comes down to this: WP has better mitigation in all but the most extreme situations; Inv excels in those rare situations where a WP would fail, but otherwise is (when compared evenly) weaker mitigation-wise. It's one insurmountable plus is its taunt aura, which is far more of an asset to Tankers than Brutes. While Brutes certainly thrive with more aggro, it's definitely not necessary, as plenty of Fury can be built with only a few enemies attacking you or the rest of the team is out-damaging you anyway and you're already superfluous (IOW, aggro obsessed Brutes are a laugh).
For Brutes and Scrappers, I definitely prefer WP to Inv. For Tankers, it's the other way around, as their non-T9 survivability is already potent, and WP is often either overkill (in standard minion to boss groups) or (in those extreme situations) not enough. My opinion, though. -
Quote:How come you're comparing powers in a secondary to a power in a primary? At least compare Fiery Embrace to Shield Charge.Originally Posted by Grey_Pilgrim
Shield Charge is nice, but it does have a fairly long recharge. I can use FSC and Combustion on every mob to drop all the minions in a couple powers (and a few ticks of Blazing Aura), whereas I really can only do that whenever Shield Charge is up, to couple it with Foot Stomp.
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Quote:But...my sword fighting taunts are only single target!!!Originally Posted by Sarrate
Go to monkey island in PI and herd up 17 mobs and try to Taunt more - they will not come to you.
"You fight like a dairy farmer."
"How appropriate, you fight like a cow!"
Oh, and on topic: I honestly don't care what the aggro cap is. If we aren't chewing through minions so fast that my aggro is switching from target to target all the time anyway, something's wrong with the team. -
Quote:Out of pure loyalty/love of the game? Maybe they just wanted the costume change emotes or costume pieces and didn't really look at the super tailor stuff.Originally Posted by Autonomous_Prime
Look at what I had highlighted in yellow. How do you buy a Super Booster without knowing about one of the things it does?
It really shouldn't be that puzzling. Some people only read as far as they wish. Well...most people. -
Quote:Though that won't matter for long, now, will it?Originally Posted by Shannon_EU
to the posts just before it I think that Shield is not so much the one with the lowest in mitigation but the most worse of solo. To be at its strongest it has to be teamed.
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Quote:The difference is probably that a lot of the "bad" Stone Tankers just end up standing around and doing very little to benefit a team other than absorbing some aggro, slowing down a team, or just not being a factor. The "bad" Inv Tankers just...end up dying a lot. Don't know which is worse, really.Originally Posted by Alabaster12
My mistake. No idea where that came into mind.
While I certainly won't dispute that MA produces a lot of bad players, I don't necessarily think that having one power versus many helps that much. The main difference I see is that players can really screw up their power selection with an Inv where they really can screw up their slotting with a Stone. The large portion of the Inv/SS players I've seen had some of the worst builds and weren't even capable of taking a single alpha from anything let alone actually tanking.
Maybe it's a server thing, and maybe it's because I run my stone tanker a lot but I haven't seen as many bad stone tankers as apparently you have. I also tend to avoid farms and after trying a few servers over the years Virtue in my experience seems to attract players who do a bit of research.
IOW a bad Stone Tanker in Granite doesn't look to be doing so badly because they're not dying--they're simply doing very little to actually benefit a team. -
Quote:I have no idea what you mean by AAO being a weak taunt aura, and Sarrate already beat me to it (with numbers!), but you also have to consider that it also provides 7% -dmg to enemies (Tanker), which basically is equivalent to +res for you against enemies in melee.Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
A Shield tank on the other hand, if built right, will outlive all but the most beastly of the other sets, Stone in granite and Invuln with fully saturate Invincibility are the only ones that I have seen outlive a well built Shield tank. Shield tanks have above average survivability and can put out more damage than just about any other, but they sacrifice agro control to achieve it. AAO, Shield's taunt aura is very possibly the worst one available to tanks. RttC would be a close second if they haven't buffed it.
IIRC, -dmg is one of those rare things not resisted by AVs, even with the purple patch. As it is basically equivalent to melee-only res, it can also be considered to be (positional) res that is also not debuffable. Not bad, really, considering it's trivial for a Tanker to soft cap the defences already. -
Quote:No, it makes sense, considering many of the buggable changes are going to be related to the character creation screen.Originally Posted by biff10426
I don't really care about getting access to it, I got Bloodbowl to play anyways. I'm just saying that patching up something to keep people out is lol, when they can do it during GR's closed beta instead.
Having had access to character creation screens in the past was very much a privilege come out of lacking the ability to keep people out of it.
Considering that:
a) it has relevance to what is being currently tested, and
b) was never something needed us to have, or even promised us they'd keep available
I can't see what the big fuss is about.
I'd also hate to try to test it for the Going Rogue beta and have it muck up and knock out beta testers by accident or whatever for a considerably larger and more important beta. Now seems to fit the bill. -
With some expenditure on IOs? Yes. Very much yes. /Nin has always benefited from not being a one-trick pony in much the same way that Willpower, Invulnerability, and to some degree Shields do. All have multiple but moderate levels of mitigation, including defence, which is the real kicker, since soft-capping is the easiest and most effective route to increasing survivability.
Never played with proctrops before, but I intend to do just that on one build of my ElM/Nin Stalker that just hit 30. Same with Blinding Powder and Contagious, as well as Shadow Meld hopefully down to about 30 sec recharge. -
Quote:I always loved your vids, too. I also don't think you should feel discouraged from doing them because of what David and the Devs do--your trailers and vids will always be welcome. But I do understand the time/financial constraints that such projects can impose.Originally Posted by Dark_Respite
Thank you. But I think I need to clarify a couple of things first. (This is NOT meant as a 'woe is me' post either.)
As much as I love being in closed beta and seeing how stuff works, closed beta is really for testing - to try stuff and break it and help refine things to make the issue as smooth as possible before launch. I can be a pretty dedicated tester, but I've got NOTHING on some of the folks on here.
Second, I retired for two reasons - the first was that I honestly believed that no one would particularly care if I stopped (especially now that David and the gang at Paragon Studios have raised the bar on their videos), and the second was that for the time and effort it takes to make one of my videos, my current financial situation couldn't allow me that kind of investment anymore.
Not to mention that for the first time since CoV came out, David and the dev team released a CGI video that I can't hope to match, even if I came out of retirement. I don't know Maya or 3dStudioMax or whatever they used to create that.
So... I stopped.
I miss it terribly - not making an actual trailer for I-14 was harder than I thought it would be, and then when I-15 came out, I thought, "Oh, crap, I know how I want to... make... a... no, wait, I can't." Then the news about I-16 hit. Then GOING ROGUE. And each time I heard about the upcoming issues, I wanted so much to come back to this.
I even found the music I would have used for I-16 and GOING ROGUE (problem #3 - licensing music isn't cheap), and had the storyboards for both done on my lunch break at work before I'd realized what I was doing.
But, thank you. At the risk of sounding like a total sap (which I've been known to do), it means a LOT to me that you guys want me to go on making videos. Like I said, I really thought that no one gave a damn if I made these (and feeling taken for granted does a lot to kill enthusiasm).
But since according to forum rules, petitions are really not allowed, I'd hate to see anyone get in trouble for posting in here.
Sorry if this comes across as rambling, I just woke up.
Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
PS - thank you for my virtual gift basket.
Hopefully, you'll get back into the swing of it at some point. Hopefully on your terms, the way it should be! -
Quote:Can't help you with the Midnighter Door (there really ought to be more than one V-side...) but PO and St. M both have a BM and Abandoned Lab, which is for crafting as well.Originally Posted by SkarmoryThePG
Atlas AE (and Cap AE) I avoid like the plague already. But I have no way of avoiding the Cap BM due to its placement near the only university, only Midnighter door, and the proximity of the only way to progress past the 1-20 bracket without using a SG base.
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Quote:I mostly agree with this. Though Ice Tankers can be really great, as they have the best aggro management amongst Tanker primaries (Dark as well, if you want to spend the endurance). Ice lets you not worry about endurance in the mid-to-end game, as well as soft-capping all your defensive types.Originally Posted by Goldbrick
With just SOs, I would recommend willpower or stone. If you plan to IO out your build, then invulnerability is the way to go.
An invuln tank well-built with IO sets is the strongest and most versatile tank out there. Without IOs, the invuln tank is in the middle of the pack, at best.
I don't know much about fire tanks, except that their health tends to yo-yo a lot. I once saw a good ice tank. And I haven't yet had the opportunity to see a good a DA or shield tank in action.
I haven't had any experience with Dark, other than watching one mid-level Tanker. He did pretty well, though. Endurance can be an issue pre-IOs, but that's nothing new to most Tankers.
I have an SD/SS Tanker that I love. She's soft-capped rather cheaply, and ridiculously survivable. Also gets AAO's damage boost, so she's a good all-arounder. I'm actually more anxious to make an SD/ElM Tanker than I am about the colour/animation customisation! -
Quote:I'd actually quite be surprised if it was that short. Despite colour customisation being the big thing to test for I16, there is also a bit of set proliferation (ElA especially, with its new power), as well as some miscellany that probably deserves some good attention (like the new difficulty options). I'd say at least another week after and then Open Beta for a few weeks, only extending as long as they need to get the necessary bug fixes down. Then out in early September, find any remaining bugs that made it to live, shore as much as that up as possible, and be right on time for those players returning from CO!Originally Posted by GoldenDestroyer
As I recall, they said at ComicCon that I16 would go into Open Beta 2 weeks after the 'Con, which would be about next Tuesday... Just my 2 cents...
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Despite actually quite liking OwTS (more so than SoW), I really don't want to see this spread to other sets.
I honestly don't have much of a problem with Unstoppable. The complete end drain is one thing, the lack of recovery on some other T9s though...yeah, don't like that so much. Killing recovery, IMO, was a really bad design move. Draining all endurance by itself, I can live with.