Agreed. It seems like a very nice pairing.
I'd imagine that an Elec/Stone build will also work well together, with the endurance-hungry and recharge intensive attacks in that set.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
I was looking at applying my SS/Elec Brute with oodles of IOs to a Tanker. It was in the 80% S/L, 60% F/C resists, 32ish Second Energize, 600% Regeneration and 20%ish Defense along with PermaHasten to churn out the Foot Stomps.
I think that's pretty good.
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One thing you should be aware of is that, operating on pure SO enhancements, Electric is highly squishy. My testing of an Elec/SS tanker at 50 with SO's showed a tanker who will have extreme difficulty as a main tank on larger teams.|
Originally Posted by Failsight
Looking at ElA/SS, though...all I can say is that I'm very impressed with ElA's mitigation numbers. Especially where they can go with IOs.
But what really blows my mind is just how well ElA covers up for SS's downsides: slow recharging signature powers and Rage crashes. Cutting recharges in half for KO Blow and Footstomp is so easy on many builds with IOs that it becomes hard not to do with ElA. Double stacking Rage, if desired, is also easier, but more importantly, with the rech debuff resist, being stuck with the Rage defense penalty is in almost all practicality not going to happen. What's more, ElA's Power Sink seems to be the perfect counter to the end crash on Rage. SS also has enough skippable powers to grab both Tough from Fighting, as well as a few Ancillaries--Pyre being a very sexy choice, as Energy, at this point, looks like significant overkill. I've never been this excited over ElA before. Energize has made it survivable. Tanker mods make it tasty. Paired with a recognised high damage secondary (as Tankers go) that is dependant on recharge for performance and bam! A significantly tough, extremely end efficient, relatively high damage (as Tankers go) juggernaut. |
I tested the following tanker sets, all operating on pure SO enhancements and all level 50, all slotted to ED cap for resist or defense as applicable:
- Electric/SS - with Tough, no Weave
- Shield/Electric - With Tough/Weave, defenses were in the 38% range
- Invuln/Stone - no Tough/Weave
My testing involved setting my difficulty to an 8 man team facing +2 enemies... something that would be fairly typical to face as main tank.
The enemy groups tested were Carnival of Shadows and Council, using Radio missions in PI.
My results:
- The Elec/SS typically lived about 5-8 seconds against a 8 man spawn of Carnies containing a Dark Ring Mistress boss... Energize only seemed to add a couple of seconds to his lifespan. If a group didn't spawn a DRM then about one in 5 tries he could survive long enough to kill the spawn. Against Council it was better, but it still faceplanted in 15-20 seconds on average.
- The Shield/Elec was able to handle the Carnies provided they didn't get lucky... on average he managed to defeat solo about 2-3 spawns before the Carnies got lucky and took him out. If a boss spawned or not was largely irrelevant to his survivability. SO survivability was good. Against Council this tanker was never in serious danger; performance was quite good.
- The Invuln/Stone was effectively immortal against the Carnies... a test with the aggro cap of mobs all pounding on him without any response lasted for almost 30 seconds before I hit Dull Pain. Adding a DRM boss made things a bit tougher but it was doable. Eventually they would have worn thru his armor but overall I'm satisfied. Against Council the issue was never even in question, I left him standing in the middle of 17 mobs for almost 3 minutes without his health dropping significantly.
- The IO'd Broadsword/Shield scrapper was the best of the bunch against both Carnies and Council having effectively no problems surviving and killing off all the mobs.
I find it interesting that the other pure resistance tank, Fire, actually seems to have higher survivability... I put that down to the much faster recharge of Healing Flames over Energize. This last is from third hand comments of other beta testers comparing Fire and Elec.
The Shield had decent defenses to start out backed up by some pretty good resistance numbers and of course the mitigation provided by Shield Charge and Lightning Rod. It's plenty good enough on SO's... adding IO's to the mix moves it up into the "incredible" category. I see no need of any changes to this set.
The Invuln has the layered defenses that make the set so good, decent defense, good resistance and Dull Pain all make it a great set, even on SO's. Add a little IO love and the set becomes almost unkillable.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
Maybe its just the uber IOs.. but from playing with Mid's I can make an elec/elec tanker with:
31% smashing/lethal defense (and 20-23% defense to pretty much everything else)
82% smashing/lethal resistance
90%(actually more but it exceeds the cap) energy resistance
46% negative resistance
63% fire/cold resistance
16% toxic resistance
61% psionic resistance
Now Tankers are most definitely NOT my strong point but I am curious as to how a tanker with this kind of potential qualifies as "squishy". The only real gap is toxic but the resistances and defense seem pretty comprehensive besides that 1 type.
Now I do understand if you're talking pure SO's that alot of bells and whistles get lost cause of the IOs but isnt every character much less when running on SO's alone?
I'm not trying to be argumentative... I just genuinely want to understand where you're coming from when you say it's squishy.
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
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Make an elec/fire tanker and tell me he's "survivable".
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Originally Posted by Failsight
SoI've never been this excited over ElA before. Energize has made it survivable. Tanker mods make it tasty. Paired with a recognised high damage secondary (as Tankers go) that is dependant on recharge for performance and bam! A significantly tough, extremely end efficient, relatively high damage (as Tankers go) juggernaut.
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Quote:
You're getting into significant IO bonuses to get those numbers; I was comparing the sets on straight SO's. Straight SO enhancements, every power including Tough slotted to ED cap nets you 78% S/L resist, 90% Energy and roughly 45% - 55% to everything else. Those numbers are directly from my level bumped Elec/SS on test. With no defense at all in the set you're going to get hit by the majority of all incoming damage... an 8 man spawn of +2 mobs will chew your resistances away in very short order.|
Originally Posted by Kyriani
Maybe its just the uber IOs.. but from playing with Mid's I can make an elec/elec tanker with:
31% smashing/lethal defense (and 20-23% defense to pretty much everything else) 82% smashing/lethal resistance 90%(actually more but it exceeds the cap) energy resistance 46% negative resistance 63% fire/cold resistance 16% toxic resistance 61% psionic resistance Now Tankers are most definitely NOT my strong point but I am curious as to how a tanker with this kind of potential qualifies as "squishy". The only real gap is toxic but the resistances and defense seem pretty comprehensive besides that 1 type. Now I do understand if you're talking pure SO's that alot of bells and whistles get lost cause of the IOs but isnt every character much less when running on SO's alone? I'm not trying to be argumentative... I just genuinely want to understand where you're coming from when you say it's squishy. |
I've no doubt that adding ~30% S/L defense would make a huge impact on the survivability, but in order to get that you'll need some pretty noticeable IO slotting; Kinetic Combat, Reactive Armor, Steadfast Unique... you're getting into a pretty steep price range there. IO's will make a difference in performance certainly, but the set's got to be able to do the job on straight SO's... if it can't then something's wrong with the set.
What makes sets like Invuln so powerful isn't their resistance levels, or their defense, or the +hp and heal of Dull Pain... it's the combination of all three layers of protection. Shield is the same way, it has high defenses to prevent the vast majority of damage from landing in the first place backed up by decent resistance for the stuff that gets thru. Electric has, basically, only one line of defense in it's resistance. Energize helps as a heal and short term regen boost but it'll only be available at best once per fight. That's not enough to keep up with the steady HP bleed of damage and your resistance numbers aren't high enough to keep the incoming damage down to what Energize can sustain.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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Plenty survivable if you're considering regular tanking duties for a team. Seriously, most people forget what teaming with non-power gamers is like.
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Originally Posted by Dersk
Make an elec/fire tanker and tell me he's "survivable".
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Isn't... It was in the 80% S/L, 60% F/C resists, 32ish Second Energize, 600% Regeneration and 20%ish Defense... pretty darn survivable?
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And here I was thinking people forget what it's like to play without set bonuses.
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Originally Posted by Failsight
Plenty survivable if you're considering regular tanking duties for a team. Seriously, most people forget what teaming with non-power gamers is like.
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The tank dropping in less than 10 seconds to an 8 man spawn of +2 mobs? Are you just assuming every team will always have a sonic defender or force field? What about the typical PuG where you have pot luck with whoever joins up? I'll take a Shield scrapper as a main tanker any day over an electric tank; at least the Shield will likely survive.|
Originally Posted by Failsight
Plenty survivable if you're considering regular tanking duties for a team. Seriously, most people forget what teaming with non-power gamers is like.
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I'm sorry, but "normal tanking duties for a team" WILL have you tanking an 8 man spawn; and difficulties above level 3 (current difficulty implementation) will have you facing +2 mobs. Right now there are two tanker primaries that can't handle that absent considerable buffing or IO sets: Fire Armor and Electric Armor and Electric is the weakest of the lot.
Let me explain what my definition of "normal tanking duties" is.
- The tanker must take the alpha strike of an entire spawn of enemies on an 8 man team.
- The tanker must maintain complete aggro control of that spawn until the spawn has been defeated.
- The tanker must be able to survive against an 8 man spawn of enemies without any outside buffs for as long as it takes the team to kill it off.
As a tanker you won't always be able to count on having outside buffs available; therefore you MUST be able to handle the bare minimums listed above out of your own resources. Stone can, Invuln can, Shield can, WP can, Ice can, Dark can with good play. Fire is marginal and Electric simply can't. This is all figured on straight SO enhancement; what we've been repeatedly told is the standard level of performance.
IO bonuses of course change things considerably however if a set cannot stand on it's own with SO enhancements then that set needs adjustment. 6 out of 8 tanker primaries easily pass that metric... the two worst performers need to be brought up at least to the level of Dark Armor.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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Before making a long-winded post about that statement, I'll ask that you simply clarify if you would feel "complete aggro control" could be replaced with something a bit less stringent.|
Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
The tanker must maintain complete aggro control of that spawn until the spawn has been defeated.
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It seems to me that expecting a tanker to hold the attention for all enemies and survive the damage it draws is as reasonable as expecting a blaster to be the sole source of damage and to be responsible for defeating everything (without relying on buffs or debuffs).
I think all tanker primaries, without relying on secondaries, should be able to withstand the initial attacks from an entire spawn and survive it. I'm a bit undecided on what difficulty or level difference that should be achievable, or how much time the rest of the team should have to suck up their end of the deal. But, complete control over enemy agro for the entire duration of every fight is only setting up every tanker for failure.
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That's the standard I hold myself to and if I can't hold the attention of an entire spawn then I've made a mistake somewhere. I try my dangdest to catch any loose aggro on the fly; like if a blaster has tossed an attack at an un-aggro'd mob but that's sometimes getting into problematic territory.|
Originally Posted by Dersk
Before making a long-winded post about that statement, I'll ask that you simply clarify if you would feel "complete aggro control" could be replaced with something a bit less stringent.
It seems to me that expecting a tanker to hold the attention for all enemies and survive the damage it draws is as reasonable as expecting a blaster to be the sole source of damage and to be responsible for defeating everything (without relying on buffs or debuffs). I think all tanker primaries, without relying on secondaries, should be able to withstand the initial attacks from an entire spawn and survive it. I'm a bit undecided on what difficulty or level difference that should be achievable, or how much time the rest of the team should have to suck up their end of the deal. But, complete control over enemy agro for the entire duration of every fight is only setting up every tanker for failure. |
All of my high level tanks are capable of holding the aggro of one 8 man spawn; with work I can routinely hold the attention of 17 mobs allowing for a few adds. I take my responsibility for aggro control seriously, while I don't worry so much about a couple of stray mobs going for a scrapper I really don't like seeing loose aggro headed for squishies.
I admit that the majority of tankers don't even try to hold aggro but in my opinion that's a failure on their part; a tanker has the tools to hold the attention of up to 17 mobs. If a tanker can't hold the attention of a single spawn then they need to work on their technique. With the exception of WP grabbing the spawn is simply a matter of moving around them to hit them with your aura and tossing taunt on any leakers.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
Ok so going purely SO's
like you said 78% smashing and lethal.
capped energy still
43% negative
54% fire/cold/psi
15.2% defense against everything
Is that really that bad? (again I have very little experience with tankers)
Swapping the SO's for basic IOs that anyone can craft at a table ups everything by roughly 1%
Now swapping to cheaper non-rare IO sets you see a bigger shift:
79% smashing/lethal res
capped energy
44% neg
59% fire/cold
55% psi
32% melee def
20% ranged def
19% aoe def
28% smash/leth def
18% energy/neg def
15% psi def
17% fire/cold def
Now I see that even using the cheaper non-rare IO sets makes a big difference. But it does that for everyone to varying degrees does it not?
Is the SO'd el/el tank not adequate to handle an 8 man team's spawns? Maybe he can't handle invincible... maybe he can't solo the 8 man mish... but for a team of 8 (let's say at diffculty level 3) can he perform his function on SO's? Looking at the numbers it seems like he could given smart play. Now I can see how an invuln tank can have a potent advantage thanks to invincibility stacking with multiple mobs... but do other tanker primaries without that have issues or do they simply have alternatives to make up for that?
Maybe I am wrong though. Since my highest level tanker is only 21 I can't speak with the experience many of you have. But I like being educated so feel free to discuss more and make me understand tanking better!
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
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Ok, to get that defense you're 3 slotting Weave, Combat Jumping and Maneuvers for defense. Yes, it will help some but the opportunity cost in power selection is pretty high. For what it's worth I've noticed that defense starts to make a significant impact around the time it gets close to 20%. 15% would help; I'd have to test it myself to know just how much.|
Originally Posted by Kyriani
Ok so going purely SO's
like you said 78% smashing and lethal. capped energy still 43% negative 54% fire/cold/psi 15.2% defense against everything Is that really that bad? (again I have very little experience with tankers) |
Remember you've no debuff resistance though so mobs that debuff defense will chew your 15% away in a big hurry... and there are a LOT of mobs who debuff defense. A thumb rule is anything that uses Lethal damage or Energy damage is likely to debuff defense.
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Now swapping to cheaper non-rare IO sets you see a bigger shift: 79% smashing/lethal res capped energy 44% neg 59% fire/cold 55% psi 32% melee def 20% ranged def 19% aoe def 28% smash/leth def 18% energy/neg def 15% psi def 17% fire/cold def Now I see that even using the cheaper non-rare IO sets makes a big difference. But it does that for everyone to varying degrees does it not? Is the SO'd el/el tank not adequate to handle an 8 man team's spawns? Maybe he can't handle invincible... maybe he can't solo the 8 man mish... but for a team of 8 (let's say at diffculty level 3) can he perform his function on SO's? Looking at the numbers it seems like he could given smart play. Now I can see how an invuln tank can have a potent advantage thanks to invincibility stacking with multiple mobs... but do other tanker primaries without that have issues or do they simply have alternatives to make up for that? Maybe I am wrong though. Since my highest level tanker is only 21 I can't speak with the experience many of you have. But I like being educated so feel free to discuss more and make me understand tanking better! |
I've no doubt that the numbers you've listed above will lead to a tanker who can do the job; my main objection is in the level of investment required. Looking over the primary it seems to me that you'll want everything in the set with the possible exception of the Unstoppable clone Power Surge. The SS side you'll want Jab, Haymaker, Taunt, KoB, Rage & Foot Stomp. Then you add CJ/SJ, 3 from Fitness, 3 from Fighting and Maneuvers and you've used all your power slots.
I realize that a soft capped Invuln also suffers some from this same problem; the difference is that Invuln is effective without that extreme a build. Adding the fighting pool to Invuln is gravy in other words, while it's a near requirement for electric.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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Between mob placement, debuffs, status effects, and allies with knockback, repel, their own agro generation capabilities, and hell even the ability to use status effects of their own makes the expectation of a tanker to use AEs with varied target caps, radii, and level placement to completely control all agro from all spawns simply ridiculous. |
Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
If a tanker can't hold the attention of a single spawn then they need to work on their technique
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With the inherent gauntlet on many single-target attacks being so small as to possibly not include the tanker in its radius, such a standard does nothing but provide a way for the entire playerbase to be labeled as a failure. It really isn't a very productive expectation from a position of game balance or gameplay.
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Questions: |
Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
I'd try boosting the S/L resistance up by 12%; that would allow you to cap it at 90% with Tough... current numbers put it at 78% with tough.
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1) With Fiery Aura + Tough do you get to 90% Smashing/Lethal (Resistance)?
2) With Stone Armor -- any combination of toggles/armors, do you get to 90% Smashing/Lethal (Resistance)?
3) With Dark Armor + Tough 90% do you get to 90% Smashing/Lethal (Resistance)?
4) With Invulnerability + RPD + Tough do you get to 90% Smashing/Lethal (Resistance)?
The answer to the first 3 should be NO, but with Invul you will hit the 90% cap. Why? It is meant to be the king of Smashing/Lethal damage, but everywhere else it is quite a bit lower.
Here is my main character on Virtue (Manowar) who is an Ivul/SS/Pyre Tanker (all IO Sets)
Smashing/Lethal: 90% (93.71% according to Mids)
Fire/Cold: 31.12%
Energy: 29.55%
Negative Energy: 32.67%
Psionic: 8%
Toxic: 29.55%
No Hasten on this build, but my Dull Pain comes back in 160 Seconds.
I will use the numbers posted by Kyriani on Elec Armor for comparison.
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Originally Posted by Kyriani
Maybe its just the uber IOs.. But from playing with Mid's I can make an elec/elec tanker with:
31% smashing/lethal defense (and 20-23% defense to pretty much everything else) 82% smashing/lethal resistance 90%(actually more but it exceeds the cap) energy resistance 46% negative resistance 63% fire/cold resistance 16% toxic resistance 61% psionic resistance Now Tankers are most definitely NOT my strong point but I am curious as to how a tanker with this kind of potential qualifies as "squishy". |
I can easily survive a 6 person spawned Invincible difficulty Carnival mission, or a 8 person spawned Council on Manowar. Beyond a 6 person spawn on Carnies and there are enough Illusionists per spawn to go through Unyielding and Hold me when they use Flash (if I am running it solo). The Elec Armor smashing isnt that much lower and the Psi Resist is far higher.
Now this doesnt include Defense which may make the difference, but from a pure resistance numbers game Elec is better than Invul and your heal comes back a LOT faster.
Main Characters - Virtue:
Manowar - Inv/SS/Pyre Incarnate Tanker
Mr Edward Hyde - SS/Inv/Scirocco Incarnate Brute
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...without even using pool powers.
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Originally Posted by Manowar
2) With Stone Armor -- any combination of toggles/armors, do you get to 90% Smashing/Lethal (Resistance)?
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Easily 90% S/L Resist on a barely IO'd Stone/Stone. No tough.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Nope, one of the reasons Fire has been on the bottom of the durability list until the addition of electric... and Fire has the advantage of a much faster recharging heal|
Originally Posted by Manowar
Questions:
1) With Fiery Aura + Tough do you get to 90% Smashing/Lethal (Resistance)? |
Quote:
| 2) With Stone Armor -- any combination of toggles/armors, do you get to 90% Smashing/Lethal (Resistance)? |
- S/L resist - 90%
- E/N/F/C/Tox resist - 78%
- Defense to all but Psi - 31.2%
- Regeneration of 350% (with Rooted)
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3) With Dark Armor + Tough 90% do you get to 90% Smashing/Lethal (Resistance)? 4) With Invulnerability + RPD + Tough do you get to 90% Smashing/Lethal (Resistance)? The answer to the first 3 should be NO, but with Invul you will hit the 90% cap. Why? It is meant to be the king of Smashing/Lethal damage, but everywhere else it is quite a bit lower. Here is my main character on Virtue (Manowar) who is an Ivul/SS/Pyre Tanker (all IO Sets) Smashing/Lethal: 90% (93.71% according to Mids) Fire/Cold: 31.12% Energy: 29.55% Negative Energy: 32.67% Psionic: 8% Toxic: 29.55% No Hasten on this build, but my Dull Pain comes back in 160 Seconds. I will use the numbers posted by Kyriani on Elec Armor for comparison. Compare the numbers then how is Elec squishy? And I would also love to hear why there needs to be a boost to its Smashing/Lethal Resistance? |
Electric pretty much has one solid layer of protection with it's resists and a slow recharging heal without any +hp function.
No defense means you're getting hit by far more attacks... resistance alone won't be able to handle massive incoming damage. Invuln is, out of only it's own resources, getting hit about half as often as an Electric. Defense is simply more effective at keeping you alive than resistance; 1% defense is equal to 2% resistance. Best of all at survival is multiple layers of protections; that's what Invuln offers that Electric doesn't.
I'm not saying that the solution to Electric's woes is raising it's S/L resistance; just offering that as a possible option. Another possibility would be drastically shortening the recharge of Energize to about the level of Healing Flames; that would put the set on par with or a bit above Fire but still short of Dark Armor... to say nothing of Shield, Invuln, WP or Stone. A third possibility could be increasing the regen component and duration of Energize. A fourth, and by far the best possibility would be adding 15-20% defense to it along with some debuff resistance.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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That was my mistake there, my only Stone Tank is at Level 26, and I was trying to remember BuffyASummers Guide to Tanker Resistance numbers -- apparently I remembered wrong for Stone Armor. Thank You for correcting me there.|
Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
Oh yeah, Stone Skin + Granite Armor will more than cap S/L resistance. Stone Skin with one resist slotted and Granite with 3 resist slotted. Your protections look like this on pure SO slotting:
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Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
Invuln depends as much or more on it's defense than it's resistance; it's the layers of protection that make Invuln so powerful. That's the key, Invuln has three layers of protections... first you have a solid defense; 20% to all but Psi with one foe in Invincibility not including Weave. Second you have solid resists to S/L; 71% not including Tough and frankly, mediocre resists to everything else. Third you have Dull Pain to boost your HP by 60% and heal you by 80%. By the way, all these numbers are with SO enhancements... no IO bonuses at all and no pool powers.
Electric pretty much has one solid layer of protection with it's resists and a slow recharging heal without any +hp function. No defense means you're getting hit by far more attacks... resistance alone won't be able to handle massive incoming damage. Invuln is, out of only it's own resources, getting hit about half as often as an Electric. Defense is simply more effective at keeping you alive than resistance; 1% defense is equal to 2% resistance. Best of all at survival is multiple layers of protections; that's what Invuln offers that Electric doesn't. |
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Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
I'm not saying that the solution to Electric's woes is raising it's S/L resistance; just offering that as a possible option. Another possibility would be drastically shortening the recharge of Energize to about the level of Healing Flames; that would put the set on par with or a bit above Fire but still short of Dark Armor... to say nothing of Shield, Invuln, WP or Stone. A third possibility could be increasing the regen component and duration of Energize. A fourth, and by far the best possibility would be adding 15-20% defense to it along with some debuff resistance.
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Main Characters - Virtue:
Manowar - Inv/SS/Pyre Incarnate Tanker
Mr Edward Hyde - SS/Inv/Scirocco Incarnate Brute
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From my solo testing I'd say the set is probably acceptable for a small team of up to 4 players facing relatively mundane foes... where it has problems is on large teams or facing the tougher villain groups. Testing against +2 Council set for an 8 man team started to show the problems... with a good team it could probably manage that with difficulty. Trying the same settings vs Carnies leads to an almost immediate faceplant... my best survival time against an 8 man spawn of level 52 Carnies with a boss was 10 seconds. My worst time was around 4| With all that additional information I can agree with you there about Elec Armor. In my testing I did not find it lacking, but maybe I am more conservative in my testing. I did go solo versus the Heavy Assault Suit (level 54 EB) out in the War Zone. It was taking a while but I was whittling him down, but it could hardly hurt me. I also took on a spawn of 8 Rikti (Level 52) including 2 Chief Soldiers. Admittedly that is also going against stuff Elec Armor has high resistances too, but I didn't have a lot of time that night to test. |
Add a force fielder into the team and it's going to be a really good tank in most any situation but on it's own merits it's lacking.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
one thing no one has brought up about ElA, and that is the fact that ElA, when slotted right, will drop the end of an 8 man spawn to ZERO fast. And keep it there.
That is one of the reasons I loved my brute so much. I had a straight up sapper build. You drop into the spawn, immediately hit Power Sink, boom, the incoming damage slows to a crawl. Lightning Field, if you slot for end mod instead of damage, will keep that end down. I used to solo a lot on invincible, and used to tank on it as well. I took a break from the game, and when I came back went to playing him knee-jerk invuln style, and got hammered. This was a toon I ran fine for a long time without stam, now I needed stam. What it took me awhile to realize, I have to play elec like elec, not like Inv. Kinda like I have to play DA like DA, not like Inv. People tell me DA is squishy, I tell em to go pound sand. And yes, building up softcapped def is a bit of a task, but not all that expensive if you take the time. It is only moderately harder than softcapping S/L on a DA(my DA is sitting at just over 46%).
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
Amusingly, given meaningful defense through pool powers and set bonuses, Dark Armor becomes one of the more-powerful defensive sets. The buff to Elec Armor should also help that set do well when defense is factored in - even on my live Stone/Elec Brute, I can tell the difference between 0% and 15% melee defense.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Quote:
Yeah, i just spent some time on my Elec/Elec on test. No fitness, have cj+weave and maneuvers, @9.6% def. All SOs except for the KB resist Steadfast. |
Originally Posted by macskull
The buff to Elec Armor should also help that set do well when defense is factored in - even on my live Stone/Elec Brute, I can tell the difference between 0% and 15% melee defense.
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Did a couple missions with mobs set to my level(I would set to +2, but I'm a brute, not a tank), set for bosses to spawn when solo, and set to be recognized as 8 man team.
DE are lots of fun, especially when they pile 6 bosses in the spawn. It was doable, but had to pop inspirations here and there. If there were only one or two bosses, no problem. Pop energize(keep in mind, I was running all my shields, the damage aura, tough, weave, cj, maneuvers, tactics, and assault, and burn more end than I recover), LR into the spawn then pop Power Sink. Run through your attacks and pop Power Sink every time it is up, the mobs were all drained of end, and were limited in their attacks, both in how often and what attacks they used. Energize recharged fast enough to work as a solid heal, and I generally hit it every time it was up. Without fitness, I relied on the end reduction in energize. 3 Heal SOs and it healed for 712. Didn't quite have enough recharge from hasten and lightning reflexes to keep it perma. On a tank, with health and Physical Perfection, your regen should be pretty solid with energize on perma, and there should be zero end issues, even without stam.
This is less than 10% def thrown in, on a brute in SOs. Now, as I said, this is set for 8 man group, even level. A tank should have zero issues living through this. Didn't try it on +2's, but honestly, I don't see it being an issue for a tank. ElA/SS, with FS's knockdown, should be fine in an 8 man spawn situation. If you build with health, Physical Perfection, cj/tough/weave/maneuvers, you should be able to survive the alpha and keep going afterwards easily. With SOs. Hasten and 3 recharges in Energize keep it recharging quick. Jump in, FS and PS. Mobs are on their tail, and PS has em drained. Lightning Field keeps them drained.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
So I'm playing around with St0n3y's Mid's I16 beta planner and cooking up some future Tanker builds. I've already got my (practically) obligatory SD/ElM planned out (very easy to do, knowing both sets well), but was looking for another combo. Looking at ElA/SS, though...all I can say is that I'm very impressed with ElA's mitigation numbers. Especially where they can go with IOs.
But what really blows my mind is just how well ElA covers up for SS's downsides: slow recharging signature powers and Rage crashes. Cutting recharges in half for KO Blow and Footstomp is so easy on many builds with IOs that it becomes hard not to do with ElA. Double stacking Rage, if desired, is also easier, but more importantly, with the rech debuff resist, being stuck with the Rage defense penalty is in almost all practicality not going to happen. What's more, ElA's Power Sink seems to be the perfect counter to the end crash on Rage.
SS also has enough skippable powers to grab both Tough from Fighting, as well as a few Ancillaries--Pyre being a very sexy choice, as Energy, at this point, looks like significant overkill.
I've never been this excited over ElA before. Energize has made it survivable. Tanker mods make it tasty. Paired with a recognised high damage secondary (as Tankers go) that is dependant on recharge for performance and bam! A significantly tough, extremely end efficient, relatively high damage (as Tankers go) juggernaut.