DevilYouKnow
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Posts
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Well, it's like paying 20 million to get 5 rolls at half price. So I guess for most of those who work the market, that could be a worthwhile investment.
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Sorry for the misunderstanding. I am not rolling with my 50. I just buy as you are doing on that toon. (Although I am currently saving them up to buy super pricey stuff at specific levels for my alts)
I am rolling on my level locked 25,30 and 35. This yeilds a fair amount of choice items and quite a few things to slot with. Triples in melee and ranged for Frankenslotting, A few good market pieces that can take a while to sell, but an army of alts may as well vendor off that extra tri-aspect Trap of the Hunter. Took about 2 weeks but it sold for like 5 million I think. I put up the recipes for things that I can't make profit on unles it is totally valueless or there is 15 for sale already.
I didn't make a huge profit on it, it did make some profit.
Also, I actually enjoy the crafting process of putting all the pieces together and I like the idea that there are people who want those lower level IO's and can get them.
But that was a pretty bad roll. I would probably craft the Aegis if I could do it cheaply. A few of the others might sell better at 25 than 23 but all in all, not a great roll. -
I think rolling strategy also has to take into account whether you are rolling for straight marketing or are only marketing what you can't use.
Rampant alt-itis means I have a lot of needs in a lot of sets so many things are of use that might be vendor trash to a straight market roll. -
Shadow's Ghost Dual Pistol/Mental manipulation - Level 50
I'm in barring any RL problems! -
Zombie Man & Chriffer,
That has been my experince as well. When I flip it is mainly for badging purposes, not for inf. I try and make sure that I sell for enough that I cover the cost of the item and the transaction fees.
The actual price I pay and the price I sell at are immaterial to me. I don't buy during the week cheap and then list for the weekend. I buy at whatever I feel will undercut the low bidders and the sell for whatever will undercut the the current high sellers. I want items to move fast to create as many transactions as possible, not inf. I don't care what it is as long as it moves and creates the transactions.
Sometimes my bids instafill and sometimes I have to run a mission or two. But whatever stack has sold, I bid for another stack at whatever the current price I think I can get it at. List immediately at whatever point I am pretty sure will sell quickly.
As volatile as it might seem, I have yet to lose money on this kind of deal and I flip Circuit Boards, Brass, NMI, Scientific Theory, etc. Made like 10 miilion or so on about 500 transactions.
Eventually all profits from flipping & crafting are spent in the market. I keep a running balance of about two billion spread over all my toons. Anything over that is spent on shineys, given away or occasionally converted to prestige.
PS. 500 hundred in a weekend on a single toon is dead easy just checking in occasionally. If I did nothing but flip all weekend I could easily see doing a 1000 transactions. It would be intresting to see if you could actually go from 500 sales badge to 5000 in one weekend but probably too much work to bother with. -
Quote:It is used un other recipes besides just the ones needed for crafting badges. But I beleive what he is saying is that the supply of inexpensive ones is much smaller than it appears. So even if it vends for 250 and is very common, most people don't bother to list it. So the current supply is a very few up cheap and many, like the ones I list for 1000 or more.Originally Posted by DarkCurrent
How does someone going for the crafting badge eat up a supply in the 100s? It only takes a dozen or two of a particular salvage to get the badge, and then you're done.
But that it is pretty small when you consider the entire player base, all three factions and all servers. So exhausting the cheap salavage is very easy. When I am out at the base and I need one I always bid for 4 cheap so I don't have to hunt it up all the time. The entire inexpensive (2000 to 5000 inf) could be as low as 100 with 7 or 8 hundred selling. -
The day an aggresive internet poster can hurt my feelings is the day I cut the fiber optic.
Dude, I was trying be civil and back out from this debate becasue it is clear, no matter how many times I say it, that it is irrelevent whether goat cornered the market or not.
Did he create an artificial shortage?
Was it visible to anyone who went in to the market during that time to bid/sell on NMI?
Does it make the market look unstable/weird/WTF?
If my points are so off the mark and so obviously the work of deranged mind, why are you all so worked up?
I didn't start this thread pointing out the manipulation. It's a public thread, open to comment to anyone, so don't blame me if it didn't turn out to be a congratutory pat on the back.
All the rest of my comments were made mostly in reply to your posts. You extracted the parts you want to bait with. Quoting out of context, setting up strawmen, reductionism, can ad hominem be far behind? Oh yes, I forgot I'm "ilk"
With all the unpleasantness coming from so many, why in the name of nyarlothotep would I want to continue to beat my head against the wall? I thought you guys cared about the health of the market overall. I wanted to talk about something I think is bad for that overall health. My mistake.
It seems what you really want is to be told how clever you, how e-bill you are and how anyone who disagrees or has a different view just doesn't get it or is clueless. It really seems like bunker mentality.
If you really can't see how all this might look to someone on the outside of the marketeering club, then you are absolutely correct. There is no point to continued discussion. But if it will make you happy go ahead fling some more, fire away man. -
Well, I am sorry that you don't like my opinion and you can't see any merit in my view.
You really should relax. I thought we were having a reasonable discussion, but based on your last post clearly I have offended you (and probably others as well). That was not my intent and I did not realize that hard bitten marketeers were so thin skinned. Lesson learned.
Good luck and good hunting! -
Ok, one more time.
It isn’t about NMI or any other particular thing that you manipulate the price of because you can.
It is about how people perceive the market and whether it is a good and reliable source of salvage or recipes and anything else, IN THEIR EYES. Despite opinion to the contrary, perception is important.
I certainly understand how the market works, I understand what you did. But maybe it has escaped your notice that most players do not understand this. An incident like this tells someone doesn’t understand the market or is learning the market or who wanted to buy or sell NMI that the price lay somewhere between 100 inf and 3 million inf, that scarcity of an item are only tangently related, and that prices are set by market demand only when someone with a lot of money isn’t probing the upper price range for fun.
Isn’t one of the things that almost every market guide preaches is to know the value of what you are selling so you can price and buy appropriately?
Learning the market as you know it means understanding the invention system, which items sell and why, having some knowledge of the intrinsic value of an item (Alchemical silver is good, whatever the price. NMI only valuable rarely) and a little knowledge of economics helps. When prices get crazy for no discernable reason it makes it harder for people to understand how the market works.
Almost everyone I have played in game with or chatted with or debated with on the marketing forum has been helpful and knowledgeable. Most express exasperation that people don’t understand how to make money on the market. So I don’t understand why you can’t see that messing around with prices because you can is a bad idea because it makes the market appear unreliable, incomprehensible and beyond the patience of most people to actually get much use of.
Of course there are other ways to get things. Those ways exist primarily because of the perception that the market is unreliable, incomprehensible and beyond the patience of most people to actually use effectively.
I am sure that many of you disagree with this and that’s perfectly fine. All I am suggesting is that if people don’t understand how the market works, things like this make it much harder to do so. -
You know what? You guys are right. Nobody died.
Sure some people probably got frustrated yet again with the market being so screwy but a little frustration is probably good for 'em. Help them deal with it in real life.
If a few more players throw up their hands and give up on the market, no big deal. More for all of us.
I am sure some noble purpose was fufilled by doing this, I guess I am just too n00b to get why this was a good idea.
So again- well done! -
Doesn't it strike you as ironic that you claim people are suffering from entitlement issues when you feel perfectly entitled to jerk the market around for fun?
The problem is that some of your fun comes at the expense of others.
Just like the guy selling flashlights for 50 bucks in blackout, people may pay what you ask but you aren't going to convince them that you did them a kindness.
But thanks for explaining the motivation for this kind of thing. Next time demonic blood sample hits 3 million I will understand that it's all in fun and just because someone can do it.
(but just so you know that is the classic power poilitics defense. "becasue we can") -
Quote:Because LotG is actually rare and common salvage is not and people know this.Originally Posted by Misaligned
No one gives a rat's *** about spending 150 mil instead of 149,500,000 on that LotG proc - but sure as hell flip out if they gotta pay 100k for common salvage.
But apparently perception is blah, blah, blah so what people "know" doesn't matter anyway. -
Quote:I do list salvage like this. I usually list a stack of 10 for 2059 for common stuff and 5059 for uncommon stuff. I usually just do it with whatever drops but I can see that flipping would keep the supply constant.Originally Posted by Fulmens
Y'see, things like this are why I stopped my "firewall" project.
I used to have 10 of each midrange salvage up at "slightly high" prices (30K or 55K or something) and check 'em once or twice a day. I did that for a year and a half.
Sometimes random shortages would cause my supply of something to sell out. Sometimes random shortages would cause PART my supply of something to sell out. (I'd see 7 Inert Gas sold, 3 left in the stack.)
If you really want to do something for your friends, just log in to an underused character with 12 slots, pick a category (midrange tech, high-range magic, whatever) and set yourself up with 10 for sale of each and 10 bidding. When one sells out, flip the bidding over to the for-sale, put up a new bid.
Check it once or twice a day. If you're advanced, you set up four of these- midlevel tech, midlevel magic, high level tech and high level magic.
What's that? It's inconvenient? Well then tell your friends to shut up, cause you're obviously not willing to help them.
I did my year and a half. It's your turn.
For my friends, I keep a lot of salvage in my base and when they whine I send it to them. -
Quote:I can see that, in fact that was how I noticed that the price were pretty ridiculous (darn fieldcrafting badge) but I usually list them if I have space and nothing better to list on a lowbie alt. They are common as you say so getting a stack together is no work. My lowbies don't craft so the slots just go to waste other wise.Originally Posted by Pitho
Circuit board shortages aren't artificial. Like you said, your friends don't even bother listing em most of the time because they're so common. Likewise, because they're so common no one (with any sense) is ever going to try flipping them to stabilize prices and get some inf out of it, there's no profit in it. People fight the enemy groups that drop tech salvage a LOT more often than ones that drop arcane salvage, so anything tech is going to be more common. 99% of the time they're not worth carrying around to list, so a small portion of the supply is ever listed.
They are, however, still used in a lot of good recipes. This includes level 30-40 generic Recharge IOs. Someone going for the badge can easily eat up supply of all the circuit boards. Or someone just crafting for some characters of theirs or something.
Basically they're so common that they're usually not worth listing, but just useful enough that the small amount that is listed gets bought out every once in a while. -
Quote:How in the world do you suppose casual players get the notion that if they just hold out they will get 3 million for NMI?Originally Posted by Misaligned
You persist. I persist. You ignore me. I has a sad
There is nothing "evil" about paying buy it right this instant prices. In fact, Goat has gone to great lengths to show that marketeers aren't actually the ones listing things for ridiculous prices. There is no (good) marketeer that is listing NMI for over 3 mil per. I have no idea who's doing that, but it sure isn't a (good) marketeer.
As for the "I don't play enough / I'm not a marketeer / I don't care about maximizing my slots" answers, as stated by many many people, you can always wait. And you needn't wait terribly long in most cases. Even coming to this game from WoW, a system that is nothing like this, I figured out in short order that I can bid on something, then wait 2 minutes and most likely get it.
For your other questions, let's take a look at what actually happened:
Goat bought out (or tried to, he was not successful as I indicated by my ability to purchase one for 500 while he was doing this) all of the NMI for under 3 mil.
He created a shortage. This shortage lasted less than an hour, at a less than ideal time of day.
During that shortage, people who were unwilling to wait a few minutes chose instead to buy it now for 1 mil. To them, their time I guess is worth it. The people who were willing to wait a small amount of time were still able to purchase NMI for less than your stated "10 to 20 times the vendor price" (5k is 20x).
During this shortage, people who are like your friends came to the market, saw that their NMI was worth something, and listed it for very high prices. Some of it sold. Some of it did not.
Less than an hour after beginning, prices were back to normal.
So, for 1 hour 1 piece of salvage had a small price spike.
During that hour, people who are completely unwilling to pay the going prices or wait a few minutes have other options for obtaining that item. Granted, any other option is going to involve more than a few minutes, so I guess they're just fooked, eh?
What I will counter to you is this:
You are working under the assumption that all marketeers make most of the profit. You also seem to be working under the assumption that casual gamers who do not marketeer somehow only get the shaft end on things like this.
From your assumptions, casual players never list items for more than the are actually worth. Casual players always pay premiums for everything they purchase. And casual players are always on the receiving end of some price-fixer.
If the casual player lists his NMI during Goat's fun for 250 inf and someone else buys it for 1 million (a price they are willing to pay), where is the evil marketeer getting rich off of this?
Also - who listed all of those NMI's at over 3 mil? Marketeers?
I would argue that shortages like this one are EXACTLY why some marketeer wannabe lists NMI for 3 million on a non played alt.
Someone sure did. But would that have happened without the artifically created shortage? If the goat needed all that ice for a party or something, then it would a legit shortage and no harm, no foul. But just cuz?
Again, I don't care about who made money and who lost money on this deal. The fact that in confirms what people already think does.
If your goal is to convince people that marketeers control prices and jerk them around on a whim to conduct an experiment than- well done.
It confirms people's perception that the market is complicated, capricious and absolutely too much effort to participate in.
This isn't true (for the most part) but if most players believe that "the prices are insane" and "Marketeers control the prices" and "It's not worth the RL time to learn" then the truth is irrelevent.
If people wish to pay all that money, that is their choice. I'm not judgiing them or even people who decide to do this kind of market research. It just seems pointless and confirms what people think of marketeers and convices people that the market is not the way to get "stufz".
Which, if you go back to my original post in this thread was what I said and exactly why I do not identify myself as e-bill or a marketeer.
PS. BTW, I am not ignoring you, I just don't agree with some of your points, as apparently you do mine. No worries. I don't assume animus. You don't know me well enough to dislike me. Not yet anyway!
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Quote:Yes, if your focus in the game is making money ROI is very important and of course that much money is nothing to ebillers (I include myself in that as well) because we will always make more money. It is not even possible for us to be broke.Originally Posted by Misaligned
If your character is "broke" and you only have 45 million, that 50,000 you bid on salvage X instead of 5,000 is not a big deal. At all. Ever.
In fact, the 45k difference you pay for getting it right this instant vs. getting in 2 minutes amounts to 0.1% of your total cash supply. And that's if you're "broke".
If you're SO BROKE that 45k actually does cut into your funds in a serious way, click on my sig and fix it in less than a week.
What this arguement "wait around for things to be priced so you can afford them" ignores that it wastes real life time waitiing for artifically created price hike to drop.
You show me a store or some trick in the game where I can add actual minutes back to my life and I will gladly argue that no harm is done by my waiting. You are wasting my real life time I could be playing with my newly crafted whatever just because you want to see if you can do it. -
Quote:I disagree. What he demonstrated is that it is possible for an individual to manipulate market prices simply because he felt like doing so.Originally Posted by heffroncm
What Nethergoat demonstrated in this thread is that it is essentially impossible for someone to do so. In the midst of his attempts to buy up everything, low cost pieces were still bought. The "aftermath" was over in minutes. The entire thing, from start of him buying to end where people were still COMPLETELY WILLING to spend millions on a piece of Common salvage they could have gotten in seconds elsewhere, lasted less than an hour. In all, he accomplished nothing but handing out piles of Inf to people who likely wouldn't have gotten it otherwise.
Further, it lends credence to the perception that the market is at the mercy of the marketeers. How can you convince someone it is not when something like this occurs?
If you are the person who needed a nevermelting ice in the hour you were playing it doesn't matter how long it lasted.
Players who aren't interested in the market (and don't read these forums) will assume, rightly, that some marketeer used his money to drive up the prices of an insignifcant piece of salavage for some reason. (profit most likely they will assume)
Indeed, the ones paying millions for these things were probably other marketeers, who else would have the cash to waste on something like that?
It makes it seems like marketeers spend all thier time playing with themselves.
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Quote:Except that paying 10 or 20 times the vendor price should be sufficient. I gladly pay that and my friends do as well, and people who list at vendor price know that either way they make the same money at least and in likelyhood far more.Originally Posted by heffroncm
The drop rate of an item is only peripherally associated with the market supply: You need to have sufficient people willing to list a low-Inf item in their limited sell slots. This raises the price, because the people who are taking the time to sell it want to get their money's worth out of using the slot.
Further, the only people who put such an outrageous price on a marketing slots are marketers. Most players rarely use the slots they have and have no idea of slot/profit ratio anymore than they have a idea of time/merit ratio.
It is only people like us who focus on the need to turn slots over like our RL livelyhood depened on it who think like this. -
Ha, You guys should be happy that they don't listen to me. Otherwise, there would be fewer sheep to be sheared by artifically created shortages.
You are still missing the point I am trying to make. They know what they get for circuit board. They don't even bother listing it cause it drops all the time. Plenty of supply. (Paying 8 times the vendor price doesn't bother them so there actually is a reason to list them)
Except for flippers and people jerking the prices around, why would something like this ever cost more than say 2 or 3 thousand?
The fraustration that this kind of thing generates is genuine. Saying it is all thier fault for not being patiant is ignoring that the reason that they have to choose between overpaying or waiting is completely artifical.
Again, what is the point of this kind of manipulation?
Just to do it? -
Quote:So I have told them.Originally Posted by heffroncm
If they really have so little play time, this market should be perfect for them. Just get them to stop trying to click the eBay / WoW BUY IT NAO button, leave the bid up overnight (or all week, if you cancel a bid before a weekend passes you weren't really trying to buy it), and relax a little. That's the ONLY secret to not getting screwed on the market: stop playing so damn fast.
But the supply is not really choked on something like circuit board or inert gas. It's hard to accept the notion that the things they vendor for 250 or 500 to make room in salvage should cost so much when they need to buy it. Especially true when people are discussing how they caused a price spike in the first place.
When you only have a short time to play "playing so damn fast" is the only way to get anything done. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Misaligned
Funny... I purchased 1 for about 500 while Goat was doing this. Yes, during his little adventure, I was able to purchase one for 500. I did have to wait an obscene amount of time for it - I mean who wants to seriously wait 2 minutes for their salvage order to fill?! That's ridiculous imo.
My offer of 15mil to get someone started on "cornering a salvage market" and keeping the price high still stands.
I don't think 15 million would be anywhere near enough to corner a market based on this example.
I am sure that many people didn't even bother bidding when they saw the prices. It would be interesting to learn how many of these transactions are primarily between marketeers. -
Quote:No, not really. I never repped people for disagreeing with me or even being snarky and I am not taking any individual to task for this, I've seen plenty of threads here just like this one.Originally Posted by Frogfather
Im going to guess the grueling task of hoisting yourself up on your soapbox caused this particular line to be missed....
"Note to Haters:
as an illustration of the marketeer maxim PATIENCE IS A VIRTUE prices were back down around 1k shortly after I stopped probing the upper end of the supply."--Quoth the Goat
Its okay...happens to every one of us....but tends to deflate the idea that a single individual or small consortium of people can withstand market pressures long enough to cause significant long term price shift....
I miss the Rep function cause I know a small but enthusiastic hailstorm would be coming my way....
I read that post, it doesn't explain why anyone would bother jerking prices around just because you can. I know you guys have more inf then you will ever spend so what is the point of this?
Would the price have been so unstable if a marketeer HADN'T been playing with it for the sake of doing so?
Yes, I get it that if you just wait you can get it cheap. I certainly never pay that much for salvage like that.
Thing is, I know people who have been playing since beta and 4 or 5 years in, that practically crapped themselves when I told them that I had 300 million on one of my toons a year ago, three months into playing the game.
They work two jobs, have kids, lots of reasons that they don't want to invest time into the market to learn all the little tricks you need to know to avoid getting screwed and still actually buy something.
They aren't interested in market pvp, they just need a piece of common salvage, like a circuit board say, to craft a recipe so next week when they can play for a few hours they can just play. When they see 1158 for sale and the last sold is 57,000, an item they vendor for 250, they get a little testy.
They don't ***** about rares (i guess because they are rare and expect to be boned buying something "rare") but this kinda stuff really get's 'em worked up.
PS (BTW, it was no problem getting on my soapbox. I built one special with a step so it's no problem to complain about something I don't like or understand. If you want one, I'll build you one for 3 million dollars. They used to be cheap but someone has been buying them up to burn.) -
This is exactly the kind of thing that gives marketeers the reputation they have among the general population. Jerking around prices because you can seems pointless.
Most players who come to market and want to sell seldom are there enough to take advantage of these price spikes and when they sell after the flood hits they get nothing and have to pay through the nose, not because supply is insufficent but because someone is actually manipulating the market.
Well done on giving truth to the rumor that salvage is being controlled by ebillers. Things like this are the exact reason I don't identify myself as a marketeer or as ebill. -
I would say that getting 50,000 to start is the easiest part. In fact you can do it at level 2.
1. Do the Tutorial and don't use your big inspires.
2. When you get to Atlas, train and sweep to Wents. By the time you do that you will have a few hundred influence.
3. List the inspires for 5 inf each. Watch them instasell for anywhere from 60,000 to 150,000.
4. Profit -
Ok, I've got my 50 buying level specific recipes.
I've a 25 and a 30 locked and rolling. I have a 34 nearly at 35 and earning A-Merits. All stealthy speed runners, dismissing escourt tips and playing at -1/1 so it only takes about 1/2 hour to 45 minutes per toon.
Gotten a Numina's triple and a Recovery/Regen proc, like 3 Positron's proc's at 25 and fair number of other procs. So far, I would say that I am doing pretty well with the obvious stuff.
I do get a lot of stuff that I'm sure will take a while to sell but I think I will make it and list it anyway. (I know the pain of looking for that sixth part of Trap of the Hunter or Razzle Dazzle at 30) But I also discovered that I have about 300 marketing slots available for marketing so I have slots.
So I am going to use the cost model I outlined above and list sets that I think are good at cost plus an average of the prices at other levels.