Deus_Otiosus

While correct, kangstor said

"...other set is because constnat knoch down knock up hold sleep etc thrown at me."

Which leaves out Confuse entirely.


And he would still be wrong if he was talking about Confuse protection being his idea of 'the best mez protection in the game', because both WP and SD provide that as well.

Its funny I usually end up going Brute for some builds because I actually prefer the Brute epics overall.

Especially on a survivability focused build like DM/Invuln which also has a nice End recovery tool, I would definitely be eyeballing Darkest Night.

• Mag 4 threat in every single attack, inculding patron and epic pools
• Access to Taunt

An 8ft radius Taunt aura is useful, but it is not the be all end all of holding aggro.



Scrappers do not have taunt magnitudes in their attacks.


If you reread I said it is an advantage for the Scrapper.

My assertion is that without a fully saturated soul drain the Scrappers advantage is not so large as the gap you might see on a pylon test. I should have been clearer.





Correct.


Even in Pylon times I'd be very interested to see where a Brute running the top chain with gloom would place next to a Scrapper for DM/Invuln comparisons.

Most of the top times for Scrappers pre i20 also had AAO.


I don't believe that SD in particular works as well for Brutes as you say, but the survivability advantage is definitely there for the Tanker.

Although it goes beyond more HP, including higher base Res & higher base DEF.

I need to check my mids when I get home, I'm not sure why I thought EE's recharge was longer.


Good catch.

Except you can't actually reach the same levels of survivability.

Rooted, aside from being the most complete status protection toggle in the game, also happens to add more regeneration than fast healing.

This is in the same set that also has as self heal that is as strong as Dull Pain and adds just as many HP (EDIT: Removed) as well as Granite which can be near 80% resistance to all except Psi in addition to 31% def to all types except Psi - all on basic IOs.


You can argue whether any of this makes sense, or if the set is so antiquated as to no longer be relevant for most of the game, or that the penalties are extremely harsh.

But you really can't say that these penalties are there for flavor.


Exactly.

Invuln for Brutes, and DM for Brutes, is is one of those sweet spots where the survivability advantages the Brute gains over the scrapper and the offensive advantages the Brute gains over the Tanker allow the Brute AT to truly shine. Not all primary/secondary pairings work out as well.

i20, in addition to bruising, has added a lot of ST potential for Tankers. Bruising + one of the T4 reactives should allow for some pretty interesting results.

You're also looking at a case where Blueside is more popular than Redside.

Scrappers are simply more popular than Brutes.

Its also possible that people playing Scrappers are not interested in holding aggro or simply dislike the fury mechanic.


Soul drain is better on a Scrapper than it is on brutes, but unless you solo exclusively or do stupid stuff like run off on your own to solo at no real speed advantage for the team - you will unlikely be able to have perma-saturated soul drain.


Also, Soul Drain might be better on a Scrapper - but the heal in Sipon Life, the heal & HP in Dull Pain and the potential to hit 80% base SM/L res as well as the potential to push 85 to 90% resistances to all with unstoppable - are all better on a Brute.

Yes, yes you should.

And you should definitely go Brute.

Do you really want to say no to 3000 to 3200 HP and the opportunity to have a 90% Res cap as well as Darkest Night with Dark Consumption to help you run it?

I'm guessing resist energies.

I usually go through 4 to 8 Second Winds on my WP & SD Brutes over the course of a single Lambda.

It sucks for the aggro toon.

I do it all the time anyway, but its awful.

Its not the damage, its the endless end drains and sometimes recovery/regen debuff.

Maybe 1 out of 5 runs I might have a support player sticking with me who can help with that.

Good luck convincing your average PUG player to do this.

I think T4 Rebirth is a top contender.

But 200% Regen is a slightly stronger fully slotted Fast Healing (which is very nice).

Its great, and its excellent post combat recoup power - but for simply being un-killable I think the upfront 30s on barrier is stronger - especially when you already have a self heal like Siphon Life and capped HP (especially for the Brute). If you are interested in your team mates at all, T4 Barrier is also better for keeping squishes alive when the poop hits the fan.

Also, an Invuln Brute does not have to work hard to hit 45% SM/L with only 1 enemy in range of Invincible.

10 Enemies in range can see you around 55% DEF. Another 5% from T4 barrier can actually see you at the incarnate softcap.


So while I think rebirth is great for invuln, its not the no brainer you make it out to be.

Is this still true with perma or near perma-soul drain?


Actually, I would say they lose damage if they perform as non-aggro units and gain damage if they perform as suicidal psychos.

I play my Brutes like I think tankers should be played (and not the stop for tea before herding style of tanking) and it does nothing but benefit my Damage output.

So if you want to let the Tanker take the alpha, and then jump in - you want the Scrapper because to them and their damage dealing capabilities, getting their first is irrelevant.

The Brute on the other hand needs the double edged sword that is aggro. You want as many enemies as you can survive focused on you.

And barrier.

If you really want to hold aggro and deal damage, and can live with some pretty hefty fluctuations of both capabilities - play Brute.

If you want consistently high damage with no responsibility in terms of aggro control expectations - play Scrapper.

I understand all the need for support and to play tanker for the squishy characters - but it is not the same as doing it on a Tanker. Brutes need to push the envelope further, build better and play better.



Also, can we assume that when your support crew sucks you just up and quit the league in that very moment?



My WP Brute can handle mobs alone - its not optimal and I'd prefer the team to stick together because its faster, more efficient and requires less resources on my part (T3 insps).


The DM/SD is close and is performing well, but still does not have all his key incarnate powers yet.

It just requires enough tools and back up plans to keep yourself alive.

This is how I build, and this is what I plan to do for the second SD brute.


Unless I'm playing my WP or DM/SD Brutes, both of whom can survive those situations and make do.

Its just the SS/SD Brute that is having issues due to being a very offensively focused build - hence the slight retooling.

For a SD Brute or Scrapper, coming up with a straight +14% defense when you are already softcapped means specializing extremely heavily for that goal.

You will need to go Nerve, You will need maneuvers and the gladiator unique, you will need barrier and you will need to sacrifice recharge.

I'm not willing to do all that, but I have an option available.

I don't see how that's any different than layered mitigation sets or Resistances building for softcap.

Both of whom, as I said earlier, are tougher once they are softcapped than softcapped defense based sets.


If 90% of everything that is thrown at my WP misses and only 80% of everything thrown at my SD misses, is there not a huge survival discrepancy between them considering the other survival advantages WP has?

Grabbing Darkest Night means the SD will be able to push back to 95% of stuff missing.


Because a lot of players suck, really really badly.

I've been on more Lambdas than I care to count where teammates were simply crap for support, crap for sticking together.

At that point, I can either quit like a chump or man-up and push forward.

I'm going to build for the second option. Its exactly what my other two Brutes do in the exact same situation.

And if I am invincible, my teammates are invincible - because I am usually the one in the lead, taking alphas and aggro and eating the lion's share of the damage and debuffs that the squishies could all be eating instead.

Im going to keep reiterating this for you, because you keep missing it, my Brutes are designed to tank for teams they do not run around like the typical PUG headless chicken Brute/Scrappers that plague the wilds of PUGland.

I know it must seem unfathomable to you that I could A) Be tanking for teams and B) be taking too much incoming flak due to a lack of support due to poor team comp or simply bad players, but spend one weekend running marathon trials on Freedom and maybe you might start to understand.




You keep harping on this point but refuse to address the counter point - those other ATs are the most powerful ATs in the game, they can easily make melee's obsolete.


I never feel like that when I play my Corrs and Doms, because I build them well enough that I don't have to.


Maybe other people's support characters feel like they suck, but mine certainly don't.


There is a reason that the standard LRSF Freedom Phalanx Rush was 1 Brute and 7 Corrs - and it has nothing to do with melees being invincible and making support ATs obsolete. The only reason the Brute is there is because they can hold all of the ATs in one spot for them to die.


In fact, I'll go one point further, the reason the top end content is so ridiculously loaded with debuffs, to hit buffs and pretty much every other nasty trick the devs can think of is because of support ATs.


This is a silly argument, I'm really stunned if you actually think force multipliers are suffering in this game and living in the shadow of melees running around punching stuff.

It will never be a real AoE attack, however for DM/Regen you are (as you said) covered on recovery.

In which case my first choice would be to slot for 5 or 6 piece Obliteration if you have the slots.

You want the recharge for sure, and you could also do well with the +Melee Defense.

I would slot Soul Drain that way as well, personally.

For the SS/SD it would be unlikely I could without Darkest Night, I ran out of T3 oranges last night on several lambda runs (ran out of 8 each run) due to a less than supportive team composition.

And with Darkest Night, I doubt I would need them.



The WP Brute has enough tools to deal with marauder with or without saturated RttC.

• 60% Base SM/L Res (well, 59%, I'm still trying to squeeze that last percent out in mids)
• 2550 HP
• Around 70/hps
• Able to Juggle SoW, Demonic Aura, T4 Barrier, Void Final Radial Judgement and T3 Inspirations
• Darkest Night

It's a very solid package, and I don't expect the SD to come close (nor should it) - I'd just like to not plow through an entire tray of T3 insps of all kinds over the course of a single Lambda.


I've been trying Rebirth on my DM/SD and I think you definitely make an excellent point about it.

Its definitely under consideration, for all of the points you listed.





And I think you need to rethink your position.

Resistance based characters with softcapped defenses in the rest of the normal game face less challenges than softcapped defense based sets do.

They get everything from heals, end recovery tools, better across the board resistances, damage auras and sometimes high debuff resistances to special effects (end drain comes immediately to mind).

Def Debuffing can be their kryptonite - but outside of top end SD builds with enough recharge to double stack AD with slotted HOs for improved DDR Shield Defense characters suffer easily as badly as they do in def debuffing situations if not worse.



Increasing the To Hit of enemies hurts Defense based sets like SD, SR, Ice Armor and EA in a way that Resistance based characters who build for defense simply will not suffer.

As I said above, they have more tools and better resistances to fall back on.




The joke of all of this, and the statements that you are making, is that with Darkest Night - IDF on trials have a harder time hitting my WP brute (10% chance) than my SS/SD brute (20% chance).

I'll let you do the math on which one is more resilient to start with before we even factor that in.




I really shouldn't have to point you to the math showing what happens when you go from enemies having a 5% chance to hit to a 20% chance to hit.



Claws, it really seems like you have a serious bone to pick with defense based sets. I'm not sure why this animosity is being directed at me.

I've come here for advise and ideas from other people interested in top end survivability against the new content, I did not start some whine fest about the new content. I'm doing this, because I believe future content will be even tougher and I'd like my favorite characters to be ready when the time comes.

So if you are simply not capable of staying on topic, I'm just going to ignore your posts since they are irrelevant.

Yeah, the mallets make it pretty difficult for me as well.

At least the Lava/Crystal palettes are more appealing than the poo-hammers.

SM is an excellent set. I think the reason it isn't more popular is because it is on the extreme end for endurance costs and because most of the game is heavily dominated by AoE damage (I also think most people don't realize just how high the overall DPA of the ST attacks are)

So you can give up the better soft control of SM, and get a much better PAoE by going Super Strength, which is right down the street when it comes to getting your rage fueled screen-shaking, smash-fix going.

Actually, Shield Defense has better across the board resistances to Energy, Negative, Fire, Cold & Toxic than WP (with IO capped RES slotting it would be 17.8% for those for SD and 8.9% for those for WP).


Rebirth is definitely a consideration.

The reason I carry T3 Oranges is because Marauder and other AVs have some extremely high DPA attacks and the 35% SM/L Res or so (up to nearly 40% if you really squeeze) that SD gets simply isn't sufficient.

While you are likely to have +DEF from your allies, I find +RES is a rare enough occurrence that I would never count on anyone ever providing it for me.

So I bring my own.


Still, your overall point is valid. I could bring a single column of lucks.

But that only gives me 4 instances of softcapped defense when I need it vs. Darkest Night which will provide on demand softcap.

I have no qualms about relying on support, that's pretty much an intrinsic aspect to Brute tanking.

My issue is that "support" is a fickle thing that is not always present in consistent amounts or type.

It varies, from trial to trial, depending on transient team composition and player ability.



You'd be surprised at the performance you can squeeze out with Darkest Night.

Yes it's a long cast time, 3.17s (and not 3.5 as someone else posted), but you can use this proactively.

You can try the jump method I mentioned above (I forget to mention, you want to jump behind the mobs, so they are forced to about-face before they can engage you), or you can simply start the toggle before any enemies notice you.


For the most part yes.

The trials are the endgame, and I'm an endgame focused player.

I avoid, whenever possible, leveling down - as I simply do not enjoy it.

This Brute will be running the Trials, CoP, LRSF, Apex, TMTF, ITF & LGTF for the most part, and soloing tip missions (If I can ever find the time to do that again)

At worst, grabbing darkest night will cost me a superfluous travel power (Super Jump), as I already have a travel power (Super Speed) - I kept super jump because its fun, and GV is a pain in the rump.


It will also cost me the Force Feedback proc, which while nice, is nothing that I truly need for the build.

I can already perma double stack rage (which I avoid) with my current recharge slotting, footstomp is on a 5.8s recharge and SC is on 26.19s.

Correct, I'm not near the res cap to most of the exotics. That doesn't mean more resistance is not useful, if you can find another away to softcap in some fashion.

That being said, with the planned changes I'm considering my native resistance slotting + OWTS + 1 T3 Orange will see me at the SM/L Res Softcap for 1 full minute.



You make some good points though, and I'm still working out my ideas for the final respec.

I'm thinking Darkest Night, and instead of Diamagnetic which I think will be iffy at best without a Damage Aura to apply it, I might squeeze more -Damage into the build to stack with DN through Paralytic.

I can guarantee myself 2 applications of Paralytic on a group of enemies for an additional -10% damage on top of Darkest Night's -21% (which would just be a bonus at that point).

And I will be able to combine both of those with Void Final Radial Judgement to completely neuter the damage (-70~85%) output of IDF groups for a full 30s (long enough that they will be dead before it wears off) - even against an AV that's around -50% damage total after AV resistances.

Originally I wanted reactive, and I'll probably pick that up for soloing - but so far everyone and their momma has reactive. Probably better to grab something others don't have.

I appreciate the ideas and comments though, you've given me some food for thought.

I don't think I would bother with the snipe, but I actually think Shadow Meld could be an interesting idea considering current endgame incarnate content. It's the kind of thing you want to use before you hop into a spawn, so you don't incur redraw in combat.

You want SoW. Its more than just an endurance recovery tool.

At worst its an easy place to tuck your Steadfast 3% Unique (or glad unique if you go that route).

Slotted with just the Steadfast Unique, it will give you a little over 20% Resistance to all for a full two minutes - which is a very nice mitigation boost on top of softcapped or near softcapped defenses + high regen.

It's one more layer in your overall protection.

And if you can give it a second +Res IO, with Tough & Mind over Body - you can cap your SM/L resistances



As for the crash, due to the inherent recovery boost the power grants, and the fact that the crash is so (relatively) light, it should be an extremely rare case that this power will drop your toggles.


Unless you have truly horrendous End Reduction slotting, or did something nuts like skip QR or perhaps got end drained right before the crash, I don't think you will ever have issues with this power.


As for the self rez, I say skip it and as Werner said, e-mail yourself some wakies if you like (I do this as well).

1) If you can make much better use of the slots then yes you can ditch GFS. I wouldn't myself, because I like to have one high DPA ST attack for things like runners and such.

2) Most likely.