Soul Drain on scrapper is better than Soul Drain on brutes, but I've never had any complaints about my DM brutes.
Because DM has an uber buildup. And added +dmg helps a scrapper much more than it helps a brute.
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You're also looking at a case where Blueside is more popular than Redside.|
Originally Posted by RadioSilence
With i20, how does a dm/inv brute stack up against a dm/inv scrapper? The damage between the two can't be that far apart if the brute is tanking most of the time and building fury. Basically, I'm curious why a scrapper is preferable to so many forum vets.
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Scrappers are simply more popular than Brutes.
Its also possible that people playing Scrappers are not interested in holding aggro or simply dislike the fury mechanic.
Soul drain is better on a Scrapper than it is on brutes, but unless you solo exclusively or do stupid stuff like run off on your own to solo at no real speed advantage for the team - you will unlikely be able to have perma-saturated soul drain.
Also, Soul Drain might be better on a Scrapper - but the heal in Sipon Life, the heal & HP in Dull Pain and the potential to hit 80% base SM/L res as well as the potential to push 85 to 90% resistances to all with unstoppable - are all better on a Brute.
Not exactly sure where you got the idea that the DM/Inv brute is going to be better at holding aggro than the scrapper, seeing as their taunt magnitudes and durations are identical. Invulnerability scrappers (and thus also brutes, I presume) are, in my experience, difficult for most tankers to out-taunt. I am also not entirely sure why you think that the scrapper's soul drain is only an advantage for them if it is saturated, given that it was not-that-recently altered to do the bulk of its buffing off of its first target.
Built identically, the scrapper will virtually always do better damage, and the brute will be sturdier by approximately the same amount. I prefer extra damage when we're talking about crazy levels of survivability for even the scrapper, but that's my opinion.
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Well, the brute is going to have taunt in all thier attacks, where the scrapper is just going to have it in invincibility. Brutes also get an AoE taunt in the place of confront in the primary and any brute that wants to act like a tank should take taunt, mine all do. Invulnerability, like shield defense, is one of the few secondaries that lets a scrapper hold aggro - but they are still not going to out taunt a brute (or tank) build for aggro management. |
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Not exactly sure where you got the idea that the DM/Inv brute is going to be better at holding aggro than the scrapper, seeing as their taunt magnitudes and durations are identical. Invulnerability scrappers (and thus also brutes, I presume) are, in my experience, difficult for most tankers to out-taunt. I am also not entirely sure why you think that the scrapper's soul drain is only an advantage for them if it is saturated, given that it was not-that-recently altered to do the bulk of its buffing off of its first target.
Built identically, the scrapper will virtually always do better damage, and the brute will be sturdier by approximately the same amount. I prefer extra damage when we're talking about crazy levels of survivability for even the scrapper, but that's my opinion. |
Overall, the brute does have better tools for holding aggro than the scrapper and slightly better tools for survivability - this is traded off against the scrappers doing better damage out the gate. Dark Melee is one of the corner cases where scrappers tend to do better top damage as well but I suspect that unless you really care about pylon times its not actually going to be really noticable.
In the end, as usual, its going to boil down to playstyle preference. Some folks don't like to wait for fury to build up, be constantly chasing it and are focused on pure damage, other folks want to be more capable tanks but like doing damage that at least rivals a scrappers. In my case, my dm/inv is a brute - but that's mostly because she is the evil twin to my blueside shield/ss tank and so I needed to go with a brute, so rp choice on my part.
I will throw this thought out - for those who think that brutes/tanks don't have enough of an edge in survivability over scrappers to justify the damage differences you really need to try comparable builds. I thought the same thing until I levelled up a shield/ss tank to 50 and was able to compare her survivability with my 2 */shield scrappers - the difference is astounding. Its all in the extra hit points - it may not look like a lot on paper but the extra hit points tanks get make a HUGE difference in survivability. Brutes don't get as much extra but since almost all HP boosts work of the base HP, any increase in the base makes a big difference.
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It's going to come down to your playstyle and what you're using the character for.
If you want to be a meatshield, a farmer, primarily solo, or don't care about variable offensive performance - go brute. Brutes have more aggro generation tools and slightly to significantly better survivability depending on how, if, and when you use resistance buffing (including orange insps and unstoppable). In high-fury situations (or if you don't care about always being in a high-fury situation or not), and in the absence of multiple fulcrum shifts, you will at least roughly match a scrapper's damage, all other factors being equal.
If you want to be a striker, team with a kin regularly, just plain team regularly, or have stable, predictable offensive output, go scrapper. Scrappers have lower caps on survivability and higher caps on damage, and don't have variable damage based on situation.
Basically I consider the two builds user's choice.
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Not exactly sure where you got the idea that the DM/Inv brute is going to be better at holding aggro than the scrapper,
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- Mag 4 threat in every single attack, inculding patron and epic pools
- Access to Taunt
An 8ft radius Taunt aura is useful, but it is not the be all end all of holding aggro.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
seeing as their taunt magnitudes and durations are identical.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Scrapper's soul drain is only an advantage for them if it is saturated, given that it was not-that-recently altered to do the bulk of its buffing off of its first target.
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My assertion is that without a fully saturated soul drain the Scrappers advantage is not so large as the gap you might see on a pylon test. I should have been clearer.
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Originally Posted by EricHough
Invulnerability, like shield defense, is one of the few secondaries that lets a scrapper hold aggro - but they are still not going to out taunt a brute (or tank) build for aggro management.
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Originally Posted by EricHough
Overall, the brute does have better tools for holding aggro than the scrapper and slightly better tools for survivability - this is traded off against the scrappers doing better damage out the gate. Dark Melee is one of the corner cases where scrappers tend to do better top damage as well but I suspect that unless you really care about pylon times its not actually going to be really noticable.
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Most of the top times for Scrappers pre i20 also had AAO.
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Originally Posted by EricHough
I will throw this thought out - for those who think that brutes/tanks don't have enough of an edge in survivability over scrappers to justify the damage differences you really need to try comparable builds. I thought the same thing until I levelled up a shield/ss tank to 50 and was able to compare her survivability with my 2 */shield scrappers - the difference is astounding. Its all in the extra hit points - it may not look like a lot on paper but the extra hit points tanks get make a HUGE difference in survivability. Brutes don't get as much extra but since almost all HP boosts work of the base HP, any increase in the base makes a big difference.
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Although it goes beyond more HP, including higher base Res & higher base DEF.
Both are beasts, and both benifit very very well from I20. As mentioned scrappers tend to have more damage ability in most situations, whereas brutes tend to have more survivability. One more difference to note, I like the options for scrapper Epics a little more then Brute Epics... in particular, I like conserve power.
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Its funny I usually end up going Brute for some builds because I actually prefer the Brute epics overall.|
Originally Posted by Shred_Monkey
Both are beasts, and both benifit very very well from I20. As mentioned scrappers tend to have more damage ability in most situations, whereas brutes tend to have more survivability. One more difference to note, I like the options for scrapper Epics a little more then Brute Epics... in particular, I like conserve power.
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Especially on a survivability focused build like DM/Invuln which also has a nice End recovery tool, I would definitely be eyeballing Darkest Night.
With i20, how does a dm/inv brute stack up against a dm/inv scrapper? The damage between the two can't be that far apart if the brute is tanking most of the time and building fury. Basically, I'm curious why a scrapper is preferable to so many forum vets.