DarkMaster

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Simply put, you're bringing up irrelevant points in order to justify your argument using flawed logic.

I have no interest in going through your post quoting you a dozen or so times to make these points which you would only refute in the exact same methodology, so I'm going to save myself the time.

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No.


I'm bringing up "relevant" points to which your flawed logic has no refute to stand on. To see them as "irrelevent" points of logic on this discussion is to only be blinded by your own dim wittedness and lack of perception. But again, that's your choice.

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Did you just bring controllers into the argument? LOL.

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I'm sorry, was I not suppose to bring valid arguments to the table?


Whoops, my bad, didn't wanna make you just sound like a whiner...

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You're invariably ignoring other facets of both AT's.

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I'm not ignoring them. You, and those who are trying to point out that Brutes are somehow so "omigawd OP" are the one's ignoring them. I have, many times now, pointed out the reasons as to why these two classes are balanced between eachother, and why the extreme variableness of Fury, allows it to be balanced as such. Who says that a Scrapper is suppose to outdamage a Brute anyways? I've never heard that. At the same time however, a Brute definately does not "always" outdamage a Scrapper at all. Yes, at certain peak times a Brute can (by .094%...) outdamage a Scrapper, but only at those peak times.


However, you and a couple others, continue to refuse to believe that Fury is and can be a variable nightmare by which you cannot depend to be at 75% or higher at all times during any given mission, especially while teamed. Solo, with the correct build and good IO slotting those fury levels can be attainable, just not as easily (if at all) on your [u]average pickup team[u]. Meanwhile, pickup team or not, a Scrapper will start out at a MUCH higher damage level than Brutes and continue that level of damage regardless of whether the team needs a breather, absorbes the alpha, or not.


Let me put it into a little perspective here, since most of you seem to keep egging on the [u]"well if your team will allow you to 'take' the full alpha of each spawn rather than controlling/absorbing it themselves, then you'll be able to attain those high fury levels throughout most the mission."[u] <----This is one of the big defensive possitions of certain people right now.


So...what you're saying...is that if said Brute...wants to attain his "peak" levels of Fury generation in order to beat a Scrapper by 0.94% damage...he'll be forced to tell the Dominators to "not" cast that AoE hold, as well as tell other Brutes to "not" jump in first, as well as tell Stalkers to "not" AS due to their control fear...? Am I hearing this right? Ok, so that 12% survivability bonus IS going to come in handy, correct? Since outside of buffs/healing you're taking on the FULL brunt of each spawn head on in order to keep up with your Scrapper brethren in damage, and beat thier damage by that huge 0.94% ....right?


Meanwhile....back at the batcave...


A Scrapper, who admittedly has roughly 12% less survivability than a Brute...could care less if that Controller lays down an AoE Hold...he could care less if that Tank rushes in and uses gauntlet and attracts all the aggro...he could care less if his other Scrapper buddy rushes in first...he could care less if a Blaster 1-shot Nukes half the spawn....why? Because regardless of how much aggro he is generating his damage will be awesome...[u]right out the gate[u]. He doesn't have the need to have an entire 8-man spawn worth of mobs alpha him to shoot his damage up. He doesn't have the need to have them continue to attack him to keep his damage pegged...he just flips out and kills things, end of story.


Now....do we need to dive in to just how much damage mitigation all of those AoE Controller mez's are producing for the Scrapper? Do we need to delve in to how much damage mitigation is being provided by the Tanker using gauntlet+taunt? What about the Blaster that 1-shot nukes all the minions? I believe that equals 100% mitigation...right? Dead = 100% mitigation, correct?


Why yes. Yes I am.


Can we say that a held mob that is unable to fight back is better than 12% more survivability?


Yes.


Can we say that a guantlet taunted mob that isn't even attacking you at all, thus contributing next to zero damage on you is better than 12% more survivability?


Yes.


Can we also say, that an entire spawn that is almost entirely 1-shotted is contributing more damage mitigation than a mere 12% survivability boost?


Again. Yes.


Now, so you don't forget! Remember that a Brute, if he want's to stay at his highest possible damage stats (remember that awesome 0.94% damage advantage they have over Scrapperst that you're crying about?) would ask a Dominator to not aoe control the mob. He'd ask other Brutes/Tankers to not run in first (or at all...really). He'd ask that Blaster to please not 1-shot nuke the next spawn. Why? Because by doing so, they may be providing great damage mitigation for the Brute and the team, but at the same time they are dropping the Brute's damage substantially, in that he will not be able to generate the appropriate fury levels to in any way out pace a Scrapper in damage. Oh, and a little heads up, most Brutes will [u]not[u] ask this of most teams and thus will almost never reach this "full potential" of fury which everyone here is dreaming about.


So in reality, he will need that meager 12% survivability boost in order to survive in his lifestyle. If the controller/dominator is not holding, or the other Brute/Tanker is not attacking, or the mobs aren't outright killed, he'll be taking all of the damage on his own. And for what? A .094% damage advantage over a Scrapper?


Now, can any of this...be ANY more clear for those that just can't seem to grasp what I'm pointing out here? I mean seriously, do I need to paint a picture?


I've even given my own recent personal experiences with this earlier when in Co-Op zones fighting beside Heroes while on my Brutes. Heck, I've even done the same comparisons while on my Scrappers fighting alonside Brutes, and what I've typed is just the exact [u]in-game[u] experience that every Brute goes through. But sure, continue to disregard any of these pertinent and important factors as you have and also continue to believe that a Brute hits 75% or higher fury within 1 attack and it just freezes there and never drops throughout the entire mission


But hey, if that's what you wanna believe, feel free, it's wrong, but feel free.

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So here's the real question:

Is the Brute versus Scrapper damage argument put to rest? Can we all agree that 3% damage difference is low enough to ignore?

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I think we can ignore it once scrapper health, def/res caps, and aggro mitigation is within 3% of brutes.

I love both of these AT's but it's pretty obvious that one of them has a clear advantage over the other, lol.

Good job on the calculations bill.

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It's actually only a 0.94% damage difference...

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Brutes now do .94% more damage than scrappers on average.

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If you wanna argue that "somehow" that is too much, then I truely have to just "LOL@U" because wow. And honestly, you really have not brought anything to the table to convince me (or anyone else) that Brute damage/survivability is SO >>>> than Scrapper damage/survivability in general play. So until you can bring some convincing arguments to the table, I'm just not buying it.


I think Scrappers and Brutes are both balanced perfectly together. Brutes get a mere 12% survivability increase in order to survive a tad longer to "generate" their Fury in a battle (Scrappers start at full) and are tasked/burdened with "maintaining" that high Fury generation the "entire" mission in order to achieve a whopping 0.94% net damage over Scrappers. Basically, they will be forced to [u]work their rears off[u] to "keep" that entire 0.94% damage edge over Scrappers throughout the mission, and let's face it...not only is this normally not easy to do with your average pickup team (most love to take breaks between spawns, absorbe alphas for you with controls, etc)...but we're also talking about a LESS than 1% damage difference...0.94%. I mean...it wouldn't even show up in damage figures. Less than 1% difference, for a "huge" amount of work in order to reach that "whopping" potential. Whearas a Scrapper can get it at the start of a fight all the way to the end and doesn't have to keep moving or work for it as hard. So yea...I think a little 12% increase in Brute survivability is a perfectly balanced trade-off.


0.94% man. 0.94%.


If that is really troubling you, then you have some serious envy problems that maybe you should speak to a councelor about...

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[u]For Doms Rech= more damage[u], personally I'd slot the Kinetic Crash.... I'm sure others will be along shortly confirming this. There is no problem slotting something like Mako's Bite in a power that may not take the rech bonus. I think Mako gives you 3% global dam 4 slotted. Good Luck!

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Well, generally speaking, for any AT "more recharge = more damage" of course. However, with I15 just around the corner, more recharge won't mean "more damage" in the same way that it used to, in that Domination will no longer grant a +dmg bonus, so having it "perma" would only be useful for it's added control and mez protection.


But yes, more recharge, will in the end still normally equal more damage. I just wanted to clarify what was said.

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In light of all this, Billz, are you planning on reconsidering [ QUOTE ]
Energy Melee's mitigation and aoe potential are too low.

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I don't know. Its aoe potential still blows. Maybe if whirling hands did knockdown it would even things up a bit on the mitigation front. Some of the other sets showing high numbers in this comparison also deal out rather hellacious aoe damage.

I'd probably relent enough to state that EM is fine for soloing, but every time I've fired off EM/TF and sat watching the animation while someone else runs up and kills my target before the animation finishes, I snap a little more.

But we could probably write that off as "EM's flavor."

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LOL, yea.


I'd still rather have ET on like a 25 second refresh timer but with a slightly "shorter" animation time, like maybe a 2 second animation time versus its current 2.67 second time and still be able to keep it's current damage..

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Lacks Build Up, and doesn't feel particularly Brute-like animation-wise (and the animations for DB are some of the best in the game).

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I deleted my DB Tanker and DB Scrapper early, as the set just didn't seem to "fit" those ATs for me.

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Pretty much this. Whatever you make a Dual Blades character as, keep in mind that the set's animations are much more about speed than force. I made a DB brute who was intended to be an inhuman monster dual-wielding meat cleavers, and then she started dancing like a ballerina on ecstasy every time I got into a fight. Fits much better as a scrapper or stalker set, in my opinion.

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Agreed.


I actually like DB much more on my Scrapper than my Brutes, I think the damage is better on a Scrapper (for the most part) than a Brute too. Also, it just seems to fit Scrappers better.


I like it on Stalkers too actually. The combos really aren't that bad on a Stalker, in fact, some of them are pretty nicely performed. Also, if you plan to "ever" pvp even a little bit, a Stalker with DB is the ONLY AT that you will actually be able to compete and pvp with respectfully. DB isn't the best pvp Stalker set, mind you, but it's still WAY more playable than a Scrapper and especially a Brute trying to use DB in pvp.


So for me, my list from most favored DB AT's to least would look like this:

1.) Scrappers
2.) Stalkers (#1 spot if you plan to dabble in pvp ever)
3.) Brutes
4.) Tankers (<---I'd never make a DB Tanker personally...just doesn't fit em' if you ask me..)

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didnt the tp resist in ea and ela get nerfed recently where it still needed a small orange to be tp protection? or am i thinking wrong?

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Nope, it was fixed in a recent patch.


The TP-Protection in my ELA/EA Brutes work just fine now.

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i would rather have Conserve power taken out and be given at Least a Dull Pain that would help tremedously the survivalbility of Ela Brutes.

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Wow...I agree 110% with that.


I would LOVE to see CP removed and replaced with Dull Pain. Boy would that work wonders for an ELA Brutes survivability. I would love that. Moreso than adding more end drain like I mentioned earlier (which I only mentioned because it looked like that's what the dev's "wanted" ELA's dmg mitigation to be...).


/signed lol

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Amazingly smart answer, thanks very much for putting that all into perspective. So its safe to say that EA is pretty worthless unless your fighting Rikti eh? Sounds like a bad design to me.

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Yea...basically.


In a separate thread I made some "suggestions" which the dev's should probably take a quick look at for improving ELA's performance, I'll paste them below:

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I think that if ELA is to be based around "draining endurance" then it needs to do a slightly better job at it, in both pve and even pvp. Seriously, if it's "protection" is based around a mobs endurance levels, then it really should be adjusted and work better. Right now, most mobs (especially Boss's and EB's) can STILL pop off some VERY devastating attacks, even if they only have 5-10% endurance! That right there is very discouraging for any ELA Brute...


My suggestion would be to up the endurance drain of Lightning Field for starters. Not a huge increase, but right now it's "base" end drain is -0.03% on a mob, which is basically -3 end per second. Unslotted, most mobs don't even notice the drain of this power...and to notice it, they have to be firing off ALOT of attacks...like crazy, which sort of defeats ELA's "end drain" defensive options.


I suggest this:

[u]Lightning Field[u]

<ul type="square">[*]Endurance -0.06 per mob (pve only). [*]Endurance -1.0 per player (pvp only)[/list]
Basically, I'm asking to simply "double" the amount of endurance drain that Lightning Field currently does. Once slotted, this would have at least a decently significant impact on most mobs you'll be facing in pve, and it'd even be slightly more helpful in pvp (though not hugely helpful in pvp). It still wouldn't do hardly anything to certain EB's and most AV's (ELA would still suck there) but at least for the majority of the "pve" game, it'd be alot of help. This means that once slotted, you'd see around a [u]-10 endurance drop[u] on mobs every 2 seconds, which would definately help and add up alot faster than it currently does (more effectively negating thier +recovery) which would give ELA a pretty decent survivability boost.

[u]Power Sink[u]

<ul type="square">[*]Available: Level 28 (as opposed to the current lvl 35)[*]-1 Recovery for 10 seconds (80% chance) (pve and pvp) (10 seconds as opposed to the current 4 seconds...)[/list]
Ok, basically, for powersink, the only two changes I'd like to see for the "Brute version" is that first off, it be moved to lvl 28 vs. lvl 35. I just think that if "end drain" is suppose to be one of ELA's "boons" to damage mitigation, it should be available ALOT sooner than 35. That is just foolish to have our primary means of mitigation placed so late in the game. EA get's Energy Drain at lvl 28, and I feel that [u]ELA should get Power Sink at lvl 28 as well[u]. It just makes sense.


Furthermore, I think that Powersink should provide a "higher" chance to cause -recovery. Right now it's a 30% chance, which while not bad, isn't enough imho for a set that pretty much lives by endurance drain. Even with Lightning Field on, mobs have been able to regen enough endurance to fire off plenty of attacks on my ELA Brutes. The -recovery is invaluable to this Brute's survivability in that for a short while it would protect against those mobs recovering endurance and attacking too often. On top of that, I also think the -recovery should last alot longer than 4 seconds...that's measly and almost useless. I suggest that the -recovery last at least 10 seconds. That would make it alot more useful to the Brute, whithout being too powerful either, imho.


Furthermore, I really do think that ELA is warrented at least a "minor" +res increase to the damage types it currently protects against. I'd like to see a minimum of a [u]5% increase to the base[u] resistance values of it's toggles. Sure, it wouldn't be an astronomically "huge" increase, but it'd definately help to somewhat "pad" the damage that is coming in before you get a chance to drain a mob dry of endurance. That, or a slight HP increase in Grounded, the same values as True Grit.


Anyways, those are my ideas for ELA. Imho, these changes would not only help ELA in pve, but even in pvp. Granted, in pvp it wouldn't help all "that" much, but it'd definately be more helpful than it is currently.

Yea, I don't have a "huge" problem with having a large "build up" of NPC "Faction Base Defenders" near each Villain or Hero Base (so the closer you get the more NPC's you have to deal with...to somewhat help prevent too much spawn camping). What I [u]DO[u] despise is all those NPC's they have located in the "central" and "outter" PvP areas. Those are simply just NOT NECCESSARY AT ALL.


The central areas of the pvp zones should be pretty much 100% clear of all NPC's, allowing players to duke it out more freely without any interruption from sto0pid A.I. hax. The closest any Longbow NPC should be City Hall is just past the first Pill Box by the Hero Base towards the Train Station, and NO CLOSER. The closest any Arachnos Soldier should be to City Hall is the first Pill Box directly in front of and by the Villain Base, and NO CLOSER.


The rest of the zone, besides Pill Boxes and Heavies naturally, should be 100% clear of ALL NPC's. It would make zone fighting alot more fun for players if it were this way. The NPC's as they are right now, add nothing but aggrivation to all players...

Also, I literally just got done running about 3 Co-Op SF's, back to back with different Brutes (lvl 50 Fm/FA, Dm/ELA, Em/ELA) and the ONLY Brute that was able to keep his fury at 75% for most the mission was my Dm/ELA Brute, which isn't surprising given Dm's astonishing ability at generating fury with it's fast attacks.


For the other two Brutes (FM/FA and EM/ELA) I was literally having to break my neck to maintain anywhere near 50% Fury on an 8 man team! It basically just did not happen. Add into the fact that the team was your average pickup team (not bad at all, but no powergamer team either) and we [u]weren't "continually" on the move[u] as many pit stops were made along the missions, as well as simple "organization" issues, and my Fury completely bottomed out well over a dozen times during these SF missions (not counting the travel time between missions).


There were a couple Scrappers on the teams as well each time, and in just about each and every instance, they were outdamaging my Brutes. I'd go help them tag out a boss, and a couple *Crit*Crit*Crit* seconds later...oops...guess I'm too late. These Scrappers, in most cases, put my Brute to utter shame in damage. Only when I was actually able to build up 90% fury (I have RARELY ever seen 95%) was my damage comparable in any way, and the only time that ever happened during these teamed missions was when I'd go toe-to-toe with the AV and his mob (generating full aggro from all) and spammed attacks like mad. Even then, I'd argue that the Scrapper was still dishing out at least as much damage as me, if not more, and he didn't have to worry about a Fury bar depleating...


Basically, sure, while solo my Brute can achieve an "average" of around 75% fury if I keep on the move constantly, but when teamed, especially with 6 or more players, building and especially "maintaining" Fury becomes a true chore and near impossible given how most average teams make runs. So the Scrapper will have the edge in damage about 90% of the time. However, about 10% of the time the Brute will just barely "catch-up" to a Scrapper's damage output, which I find nothing wrong with. Do people realize just "how much" damage that same Brute "missed out on" while "building UP" to that potential? In relative terms, the Scrapper is WAY WAY ahead by the time the Brute is able to meet his damage potential, and in order to maintain it, the Brute would be forced to NEVER stop moving and fighting and would have to make sure to generate full aggro at all times. That, is just not something that is easily done, or even practical in most team settings...


Given the sheer amount of variables which could prevent a Brute from generating and maintaining 75% and especially 90% Fury on teams (everything from a simple escort to a blinky can cause your fury values to utterly plummet..), I have to say that a Brutes damage output and survivability is more than perfectly balanced in comparison to a Scrapper.



***EDIT: Billz, this isn't directed at you, just a QR lol ***

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what the analysis doesnt show you is that (and correct me if i'm wrong) the harder the target ,the more often a scrapper will crit.

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Crits normalized at 7.5% to cover all minions, LT,s bosses, EBs, AVs, pylons, monsters, etc. From what I've been told, that number should probably be lower considering that the % of minions we face might be higher than all the rest. But since I don't know the facts on that, I stuck with 7.5% on crits.

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[u]I always use the 10% chance of critical[u] (except for attacks with a flat 15% chance). My reasoning is that I couldn't care less about my DPS vs. minions. Minions are for burst and AoE damage. But I think normalizing to 7.5% is just fine too. As long as you're consistent, I think anything from 5% to 10% is just fine.

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This.


I normally use the 10% basis as well when configuring damage charts on my Scrappers. The reason being is just as Werner pointed out, who cares about "minions?!?" I pretty much 1-2 shot those weak meat sacks with simple AoE's on my Scrappers...I could care less if I crit or not on them, heck, I could care less if they were alive or dead, hell on my Invuln and WP I want them alive lol. So I don't think minion crit chances should even figure into this equation honestly.


Where I "do" care for Crits is against anything "higher" than an Lt. (even LT's are a joke for the most part). As such, I use the 10% Crit Chance as my average on most every case.


I'd...rather timidly (you've already put alot of work in this...)...suggest that 10% be the "basis" for Criticals. It's not a huge-o-difference, but it is a difference which might make up for that "slight" difference we're seeing (3% or so) between Brutes and Scrappers damage output.

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Power Sinks recharge is waaaay too long for endurance drain to work as a decent mitigation. Electric armor sucks and no amount of end drain modification will change that.

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Yea, that's basically why I suggested above that Power Sink's "chance for -end recovery" be increased, as well as it's duration. If Power Sink had an 80% chance (30% currently) to cause -recovery for 10 seconds rather than the mere 4 seconds it has now, it'd be a MUCH more effective tool for draining a mob dry of endurance, and keeping them there.

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If you don't want to spend a lot of time and money, you can't beat Fiery Melee. SS is highly overrated and won't do nearly as much damage until you get your recharge skyhigh, at which point it comes close. SS does get better mitigation though.

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Agreed 100%


Fire Melee is a beast right out the box. Sure, it lacks mitigation, but a good secondary and a little skill takes care of that.


Hell, I have an FM/FA Brute, and I LIVE by the "kill him befor he kills me" rule LOL! I love it! And 90% of the time it works out just fine. Gotta love the Full Fury+BU+FE haha, it definately = OMG

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Oooook, I was under the impression that ElA was the next best thing after toilet paper.

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Nope.


It was "decent" in pvp for awhile (with the over-abundance of energy damage in pvp) but since the pvp changes/nerfs and since people have learned how to cope with ELA, it's definately one of if not THE [u]worst[u] pvp secondary now. I'd go as far as to say that DA is actually better in pvp now than ELA...yea...ouch.


In pve, ELA has never been the greatest. Decent, but not great.

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For the record, Electric Armor is the worst Brute secondary. EA's buff was enough to put it up beyond Electric IMO.

Super Reflexes is one of the best PvE sets in the game, and unlike the Stalker/Scrapper version it gets its AOE protection at a reasonable level. It's the king of Defense Debuff protection, the scaling Resists are awesome, and 1 small Luck gives you an on-demand god-mode like few other sets can achieve. It IOs out cheaply and very effectively. Right now it's screwed in PvP, but in PvE it's a solid performer.

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I think that if ELA is to be based around "draining endurance" then it needs to do a slightly better job at it, in both pve and even pvp. Seriously, if it's "protection" is based around a mobs endurance levels, then it really should be adjusted and work better. Right now, most mobs (especially Boss's and EB's) can STILL pop off some VERY devastating attacks, even if they only have 5-10% endurance! That right there is very discouraging for any ELA Brute...


My suggestion would be to up the endurance drain of Lightning Field for starters. Not a huge increase, but right now it's "base" end drain is -0.03% on a mob, which is basically -3 end per second. Unslotted, most mobs don't even notice the drain of this power...and to notice it, they have to be firing off ALOT of attacks...like crazy, which sort of defeats ELA's "end drain" defensive options.


I suggest this:

[u]Lightning Field[u]

<ul type="square">[*]Endurance -0.06 per mob (pve only). [*]Endurance -1.0 per player (pvp only)[/list]
Basically, I'm asking to simply "double" the amount of endurance drain that Lightning Field currently does. Once slotted, this would have at least a decently significant impact on most mobs you'll be facing in pve, and it'd even be slightly more helpful in pvp (though not hugely helpful in pvp). It still wouldn't do hardly anything to certain EB's and most AV's (ELA would still suck there) but at least for the majority of the "pve" game, it'd be alot of help. This means that once slotted, you'd see around a [u]-10 endurance drop[u] on mobs every 2 seconds, which would definately help and add up alot faster than it currently does (more effectively negating thier +recovery) which would give ELA a pretty decent survivability boost.

[u]Power Sink[u]

<ul type="square">[*]Available: Level 28 (as opposed to the current lvl 35)[*]-1 Recovery for 10 seconds (80% chance) (pve and pvp)[/list]
Ok, basically, for powersink, the only two changes I'd like to see for the "Brute version" is that first off, it be moved to lvl 28 vs. lvl 35. I just think that if "end drain" is suppose to be one of ELA's "boons" to damage mitigation, it should be available ALOT sooner than 35. That is just foolish to have our primary means of mitigation placed so late in the game. EA get's Energy Drain at lvl 28, and I feel that ELA should get Power Sink at lvl 28 as well. It just makes sense.


Furthermore, I think that Powersink should provide a "higher" chance to cause -recovery. Right now it's a 30% chance, which while not bad, isn't enough imho for a set that pretty much lives by endurance drain. Even with Lightning Field on, mobs have been able to regen enough endurance to fire off plenty of attacks on my ELA Brutes. The -recovery is invaluable to this Brute's survivability in that for a short while it would protect against those mobs recovering endurance and attacking too often. On top of that, I also think the -recovery should last alot longer than 4 seconds...that's measly and almost useless. I suggest that the -recovery last at least 10 seconds. That would make it alot more useful to the Brute, whithout being too powerful either, imho.


Anyways, those are my ideas for ELA. Imho, these changes would not only help ELA in pve, but even in pvp. Granted, in pvp it wouldn't help all "that" much, but it'd definately be more helpful than it is currently.

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Accelerated Reflexes i suspect would be considered more than a little overpowered for a pool power, 4th tier or not. It gives larger bonuses than the first two tiers of Fitness combined in one power plus a recharge bonus?

Not very likely to happen. Quickness is tier 6 for Scrappers (8 for Brutes) and it grants fewer bonuses in a secondary powerset.

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I don't think the tier4 power I've suggested for the Speed pool to be in any way shape or form "OP." I think it's perfectly fine to have Accelerated Refelexes boost your jumping and running speeds "slightly" more than Swift or Hurdle. Those are both tier1 pools afterall, an in the grand scheme of things, the slightly faster speeds than Hurdle or Swift would barely be noticed, if at all. You're talking about like a 1-2 mph difference here...I think it'd be justified to have it grant slightly more run speed, being a tier 4 pool power and all.


On the +recharge side of things, I went ahead and dropped that 15% +rech (which personally I don't think is too much either) to 10% +rech. This is only HALF the value of both Lightning Reflexes (avail lvl 20 for Brutes, same as tier4 pool) and Quickness (avail lvl 20 for Scraps, same as tier4 pool). Furthermore, it's not granting +res to slows, even though I think a minor +res to slows wouldn't be uncalled for at all.


Personally, I find absolutely no unbalance in my proposed Accelerated Reflexes power. None at all. You do, afterall have to go 3 deep into a Power Pool to get it. Many builds may not find the room or need to go that deep into the Speed Pool just for a minor +movement increase and minor +rech bonus. Things you can easily cover with basic IO recipe slotting.


I think it's a fine power.

Acrobatics is fine and the most useful by a LARGE margin over the others.


All others needs changed, they just blow hard chunks.


I think Whirlwind should just be replaced altogether. The power in it's current form is just crap. I'd be more happy with a power that granted me a passive perma-increased movement bonus and slight recharge rate increase. To me, that'd make alot more sense than a friggen Whirlwind of uselessness. The speed pool IS all about speed afterall.


[u]Example:[u]

[u]Accelerated Reflexes[u]
<ul type="square">[*]Increased RunSpeed/FlySpeed +0.50 (that's a little faster than swift: +0.35) [*]Increased JumpHieght +1.75 (compared to hurdle: +1.668) [*]Increased SpeedJumping +1.35 (compared to hurdle: +1.245)[*]Increased Recharge Rate +10%[/list]
Anyways, I think a "passive" tier4 power like what I just listed above would be "useful" to some people (not all, but that's the point) while not being "too powerful" either. It's essentially similar to the passive: Lightning Reflexes from Elec Armor and Quickness from Super Reflexes, only it provides slightly faster "run/jump/fly" speeds, a slightly lower recharge rate reduction value, and (at least right now) no protection from slows. I'd love to see a power like this in the speed pool.


As for Flight, Group Fly needs to go, that power is horrid beyond belief. I think that Group Fly should be changed to "Grant Fly" in similar fasion to "Grant Invis" from the Stealth pool. I think another poster mentiond this same change. I'd back it, sounds like a good idea to me.


[u]Example:[u]

[u]Grant Fly[u]

<ul type="square">[*]+1 Fly for 120 seconds (same as Fly and effect does not stack from the same caster)[*]FlySpeed +1.365 for 120 seconds (same as fly and effect does not stack from the same caster)[/list]
Anyways, adding something like this would be really great imho. It would mean that you could grant your friends "fly" if they needed it (allow members the ability to "accept" or "decline" the power in similar fashion to TP-Friend) but they would also have a fly power which they have "full" control of on their own for a short while after it's granted. To me, that's full of win. Making this a tier4 power for fly is just awesome imho. Note: Grant Fly would still cause the buffed player to experience "attack suppression" just as they would with any travel power.


Someone also mentioned a "Teleport Attack" replacement to Team Teleport. I like this idea as well. I think Team TP is pretty useless right now for most players. Sure, MM's can get a "tiny" bit of use out of it once in awhile, but not much. I LOVE the Teleport Attack idea, but here's my idea on it:


[u]Example:[u]

[u]Teleport Charge[u]

You target an enemy and then immediately teleport a short distance to it's location to get "up-close and personal" with your foe! The shock of your instant appearance has a slight chance to stun your opponent and may even knock them down! This allows you to unleash any variety of melee and close range attacks with ease!

<ul type="square">[*]Type: Click [*]Accuracy: 1 [*]Range: 60 Feet [*]Cast Time: 0.56 seconds [*]Endurance Cost: 16 [*]Recharge Time: 90 seconds [*]Target: Foe [*]+5.15 KnockUp (60% chance) [*]+5.5 second Stun (mag 3) (20% chance)[/list]
Anyways, something like this, I could see being VERY useful and almost invaluable to some melee toons. This port would be a relatively short distance port at 60 feet which means that it would be useful as an opener on a spawn or to quickly intercept/get to a mob that may be slightly "out of reach" for you but is about unleash a vicious attack on you or your teammates. The lightning fast cast time on this power (0.56 sec) means that you would be at your desired target VERY quickly, and be able to unleash what powers you need without too much trouble. The fast cast time help with mobs that are "on the move" and running, so not too much time is wasted on the animation of the power, you get there fast. It's on a 90 second recharge timer, so it's not a power that could be just spammed and abused in any way either.


Basically, you would target an enemy, click the Teleport Charge button and it would teleport you directly beside the enemy you just targeted. This would be a VERY helpful move to many melee toons. Some of the balance here for them is, not many of them want to have Teleport as a travel power, so it'd be a big decision for them to make.


Anyways, those are my suggestions for the 4th powers in each travel pool. I'd like them, and I've made sure to consider "balance" issue with all of them, as to not make them too powerful.

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So by that logic, if nothing but Scrapper's maximum Resistance values, HP, and Damage cap were raised, you would have no problem with it? Because after all, Scrappers, without buffs, aren't being changed at all. They're just being made to be able to be buffed in a way that equals Brutes.

So there's no problem with that, right? You wouldn't care or think it's wrong to do so?

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Stolid, I have been pushing for Scrapper resistance caps and HP caps to be "raised" to Tanker (and now Brute cap) values for as long as I can remember. I have always thought that a Scrapper should have the "ability" to attain those levels of survivability, given a "teaming" environment rich in buffs.


So no, I really wouldn't have any huge quarrels with that. However, even after all of that, the fact of the matter remains that while a Scrapper's damage is quite steady, predictable, un-wavered by aggro/or attacking, and even dependable, a Brutes is not, which is suppose to be the "balance" for this case and their ability to "attain" Tanker level caps (either via a couple team-buffs or for a short while with a Tier9).


That said, allowing Scrappers to have the ability to reach Tanker level res/hp caps, means that they would now "severely" outperform Brutes in EVERY WAY possible, in that their damage is "non-dependant" on any factors outside of basic "resistance/debuff" factors which everyone has to deal with anyways, Brute or Scrapper. So essentially, you'd have a 100% of the time damage capped Brute equivalent of a Scrapper running around with Tanker level resistances/hp at all times given he has 2-3 defenders buffing him and that's all it'd take.


It's not quite that simple for the Brute. The Brute would need 2-3 buffers shielding him in order for him to cap all resistances outside of his tier9, along with full fury which also means proper/perfect aggro management on a team, along with +dmg buffers in order for him to reach his cap. If the +dmg buffers are Kins then his +dmg buffs will be very dependant on exactly "how big" a spawn is for how much +dmg he recieves, and being hit by all FS's in order to "cap" his damage can become tricky at times (but not always of course).


As one can see...there are ALOT more clauses for the Brute to deal with in order to maintain his most ultimate level of performance than the Scrapper. The Scrapper with the same res/hp caps could simply have 2-3 buffers buff him to the cap, and then just flip out and go crazy right out the gate, which as I explained above is not the case with the Brute.


Again, though, I could honeslty care less if Scrappers got their res/hp caps raised. I've wanted the +res caps on Scrappers to be at least 80-85% for the longest time...

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That's not balance. That's a definite imbalance. Damage roughly equal. Survivability obviously imbalanced in the favor of Brutes. Learn to pay some [censored] attention to the game mechanics and the numbers before you accuse me of generating conclusions based solely on an unimportant bias.

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And again, here you are getting extremely passionate about your anger over Brutes, once again showing your bias, and once again I'm not seeing this "severe imbalance" that you so cry about.


Maybe cry less? Dunno..you sound pretty heated. A hug maybe?

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How about you actually look at the survivability disparity and realize that you're wrong?

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I realize that Brute's have greater survivability "possibilities" yes. But what you seem to imply is that Brutes come out of the box spitting 850% +dmg buffed fireballs from hell 110% of the time without fail...which is so far from the truth it hurts my sides from laughter. The "case-by-case" scenarios, un-predictability of damage ratios and team/buffs, as well as basic un-predicatability of how any given mob will respond is why Brutes are balanced with what they have. During ultimate-optimal-sweetass conditions, they can perform better than Scrappers, sure, but that's such a circumstantial event that it's not something we can "count on" for average play. So when are "you" going to realize that you are wrong and just angry?

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That's not balance. That's a definite imbalance. Damage roughly equal. Survivability obviously imbalanced in the favor of Brutes. Learn to pay some [censored] attention to the game mechanics and the numbers before you accuse me of generating conclusions based solely on an unimportant bias.

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And again, here you are getting extremely passionate about your anger over Brutes, once again showing your bias, and once again I'm not seeing this "severe imbalance" that you so cry about.


Maybe cry less? Dunno..you sound pretty heated. A hug maybe?

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Well, Stone Melee has two things that makes for good synergi: high end cost and excellent active mitigation. What you need for high end cost is obvious, active mitigation isn't so I'll skip right to that. Active mitigation is much better on a set that relies on regaining hit points quickly as it's mitigation. That means Dark Armor, Fiery Aura and Willpower.

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However, SM/* rocks on */ELA because ELA needs a little bit of time to work it's "-endurance" magic lol. With the active mitigation from SM working on your side as an ELA, you have all the time you need to not ony avoid a HUGE portion of a spawns alpha, but also drain them dry so that they "can't" attack you almost at all afterwords.


It's dang near magic to be honest lol, a thing of beauty haha

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ChaosString:
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Oh, I reach 90% all the time during missions, and exceed it during some types of encounters

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You don't "exceed" 90% Fury, I think at best Fury caps out at 95% (I actually believe it's 90%) due to either a "bug" or design. So you're not going to "exceed" 90% Fury hardly ever, IF ever for that matter.

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Actually, you do. You just don't get Fury from attacking if you're over 90%. You have to get it from being attacked which, if you're on a team, isn't a difficult thing to do unless you're */Energy.

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Hence, "during some types of encounters."

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Yup, it can be done, but it's extremely rare...and I don't think that "extremely rare" counts as a "balance issue" by any stretch.

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ChaosString:
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Oh, I reach 90% all the time during missions, and exceed it during some types of encounters

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You don't "exceed" 90% Fury, I think at best Fury caps out at 95% (I actually believe it's 90%) due to either a "bug" or design. So you're not going to "exceed" 90% Fury hardly ever, IF ever for that matter.

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Actually, you do. You just don't get Fury from attacking if you're over 90%. [u]You have to get it from being attacked which, if you're on a team, isn't a difficult thing to do unless you're */Energy.[u]

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OR...there are a couple of OTHER Brutes on the team splitting your aggro with you, or Dominators on the team locking everything down so they can't attack you, or Stalkers 1-shotting mobs before they attack you or simply them gaining more damage-voke than you can overcome unless right next to the mob, or that Corruptor mez'ing or nuking a mob which cause them to "not" attack anyone or "flee" from the rains fear effect.....


There are literally [u]several[u] different things that can definately (and DO definately) happen when you're on a team which cause mobs to no constantly attack you. I don't care how good you might think you are, you're not always going to have an entire "aggro capped" mob just pelting away at you at liesure, it's just not that simple unless you've "specifically" setup your team for JUST that scenario, in which case we revert back to: [u]Brutes &gt; Scrappers "BUT" only when SPECIFIC circumstances are present and are occuring[u], and those circumstances are specific enough (i.e. hard to achieve) that I don't find a balance issue between Scrappers and Brutes at all.


Hey...have you ever "pvp'd" with a Scrapper and Brute? Scrappers &gt;&gt;&gt; Brutes there hands down for sure. So again, I don't find a problem with Brutes = Scrappers (and maybe a tad more) when the circumstances are just right in PVE being a big deal. It's PvE. There's the balance lol..