Da_Captain

Not going to comment much on that, I did do my math Wrong on the attack chain I did with Dark melee and brutes came out ahead 60 points of damage. On yours you didn't include crits, when I went back and did the math my self from base damage and didn't add the crits I got the same number (well 287.20) but in the end it came to a total of 1580. So about an extra 203 points, thats all they get with an extra 350% percent damage buff, not to mention an outside damage buff which costs brutes more recharge and end, and on an even sets like Dark Melee they only get about an extra 60 points of damage for a whole 350% of damage buff wow.

I still think 75% is a bit much to consider the average, if you think I am wrong show me, still waiting on the video, actions speak louder than words.

lol yeah it only happened to me once, but the time it did I was PO'ed, I let them finish off whatever was left and I kept going.

Yeah I think the average of the fight more averages around 60%, Just from start of battle to end of battle for each battle on a 0/x1 mish. This is coming from an expert Scrapper, and a novice brute player, and I think your values don't include how an extreme beginner would play this game, they would expect so much damage and then when they have a hard time trying to survive to get it then they are left with the, "Brutes suck", "I tried them and didn't like them", "They need a buff", etc and that is not the case they were expecting something they didn't get.

Oh when I build, I build to take on /x8 solo, I know in those instances a brute would definitely outshine a scrap. But as I said before...

More than likely if I am just trying to farm merits I want the diff as low as possible because at this point I don't care about drops, inf, or exp. And I have seen and heard about Scraps and Brutes that have trouble with solo play. I know not everyone plays the game like me, some people only use SOs and the only pools outside their normal two are travel and fitness and some sets don't survive well without fighting (That is just a harsh reality, on most of my melee toons fighting is more important than fitness, on my WP and Regen I don't even have fitness, mainly do to the IOs that they have in them and fitness doesn't give too many good set bonuses).

These current equations are under the assumption that a player is building to take on higher levels of diff, when we need to conduct research on base principals, not what considered easy to some, but what we know is easy to all, because what is not difficult for you could be difficult to others.

It's not the AoE Immob spamming I am worried about, It's the Seeds of Confusion, the AoE stuns, the AoE Intangible, the AoE KB, The pets, (A bit of that goes to their MM cousins).

Video if you could please, because I don't see it happening unless you herd up the whole map, In which time my scrapper could just run through the map killing everything while you are gathering fuel for your Fury


Edited for left out information and it's funny how you mention that they have a higher damage cap and if both ATs reach their respected caps Scrappers would deal more damage, even with a higher cap they don't outdamage scrappers. If both were on a team with a Kin, Scrapper damage would be more than a brute. Brutes need an extra 350% damage in order for them to do somewhat close to what a Scrapper does at it's cap.

Again, brutes don't start with 75%, You are ignoring that fact more than anything and if there isn't enough mobs it will be hard to attain it, while Scrappers need nothing. You can't maintain 75% when you are going from mish to mish, You can keep it when you are going from group to group and the next group isn't that close, You can't keep it when there aren't a lot of mobs around, does that make you a poor player?

Reptile armor could work for Stalkers perfectly, Though I would leave a minor Psi Hole and a huge Cold hole (I mean seriously, they didn't make it out of the Ice age.)

Tier 1 Camouflage - You can blend with your surroundings (Hide)

Tier 2 Harden Skin - As a reptile you have tougher skin than most, but your cold blood leaves you vulnerable to cold damage (Auto Resistance to all but Psi and cold)

Tier 3 secondary palate - As a reptile you have an extra palate to allow for more breathing, allowing you to do more tasks than the average without getting as tired (Auto Recovery)

Tier 4 Reptile Reflexes - As a reptile you senses are more keen and are able to see what is coming at you and are able to evade danger better than most. (Toggle or Auto Defense to all but psi)

Tier 5 Reptile Tactics - You use all of your natural reptile instincts to make you a predator and not prey. (Mez protection, +preception, and +regen)

Tier 6 Reptile Regeneration - As a reptile your cells can regenerate better than most species. (Not sure about it Self Heal or Auto regen, or Click Self Heal/Regen)

Tier 7 Adaptation - You tend to adapt to your backgrounds quicker than other species, so the more you are attacked the better you are at resisting the element, but your cold blood still leaves you vulnerable to cold damage. (Scaling Resist Toggle, the lower your health is the more Resistance you have to all but Cold. 99% - 75% = 10% resist, 74% - 50% = 15% resists, 49% - 25% = 20% resists, 25% - 10% = 25% resists, 9% - 1% = 30% resists)

Tier 8 Shedding - After taking enough, you can leave your old skin behind and refresh yourself (Self Rez)

Tier 9 Natural Selection - When you back is against the wall you must do what you have to, to survive. (Fixed Recharge, Minor Defense, Minor Resistance, and Minor Regen Boost)

One that was nice but did not make it

Autotomy - This is a process which you leave a piece of your self behind in order to trick foes so that you are able to flee. (PBAoE Placate and self Regen)

I don't too much care if it seems OP just a spur of the moment thing I did in my free time.

Might explain a bit since you are on 0/x3 and I am on /x2, Like I said Brutes need certain conditions to do more damage, On a team with doms/trollers, even one, A brute wouldn't be able to sustain the necessary 75% that your calculations are derived from.

Edit: Played on /x3 settings, and yeah it was real easy to stay above 70% or even capped, but when I ran it on /x2 settings again like I said I barely stayed at 60% and on /x1 settings I think I only hit 60% as I was delivering the final blow to the last enemy in the group. Unimpressed, because if your build isn't able to take on /x3 mobs solo then you will have issues achieving the allotted totals, which isn't fair for calculation because a beginner isn't going to know to take tough and weave or how to IO properly, sure some builds can take on /x3 without the fighting pool or IOs but not all, and I think calculations should be place on what the whole AT can do a base 0/x1 settings.

Of course a solo Brute that can take on /x3 or higher is going to deliver more damage than a scrapper on average, because you are playing to the advantage of the AT, the thing is being able to survive that difficulty. Letting a noob see this would give them the wrong taste because if they are playing as I was, on something lower than /x3 then they aren't going to get what is shown on the results.

I guess it was kind of something like that, that gave me the bad taste I kinda already have about Brutes, When I started in Mercy I ran the streets killing any and everything and fury didn't drop past 80 if that, but once I did my first mish, I couldn't get it up to 50, I felt lied to. And on teams it felt worse. I like the fact that some like the Fury mechanic, but it and Brutes just ain't my cup of tea. My Scrappers shred 1 or 100 they all are the same.

I already pointed out that brutes are better the more enemies there are, my arguement is that Scraps are at their full potential all the time and brutes need certain conditions like mish settings for one.

Why would one want to have /x1 settings? More reasons than you believe.

1. Not that experienced in the game and learning to play
2. Wanting to run an Oro Arc real quick trying to gain merits as fast as possible
3. Taking on a certain type of mob that you don't want the room to be full of (Malta, Carnies, Nemesis)

When you need to hunt a certain mob on a map your Fury isn't going to be 75% the whole time when you are looking for them.

Seriously too many conditions for the 75% to be considered average Fury.

I found my problem not enough mobs, and it does fit Brutes don't it lol?

I like Brutes, but I think saying they do more damage than Scrappers is misleading, like a bad phone company.

Brutes are stronger than Scrappers Just as long as...

You are soloing at /x3 or higher
You make sure to get to your next group as fast as you can
Pick certain powers so you can have an attack chain that keeps your fury up
You try to team with as few doms and trollers as possible (defintiely want to stay away from Fire)
Don't do any arcs with hunts in them
Don't team with Tanks

Seems a bit misleading to me.

On average considering everything you can do in this game, 75% fury isn't that if it has requirements, Average is something the AT does on average in any condition, not certain conditions. Which is why Scraps are stronger, They are at Full Strength in all Conditions.

Yeah I guess that could be a bit of the problem, I have heard about EM and not too many good things. Pretty much the consistancy is what makes the numbers given hard to go by, but then again might just be the bad taste left in mouth from my first Brute, whereas I have yet to find a combo of Scraps I don't like.

Sorry I Bill Brutes don't win, I was going to give the benefit of the doubt, but I just ran a a couple mishes on test with my Brute and damage just didn't feel like Scrapper level I had it on /x2 and my Fury bar never made it past 60%, once you get it past 55% it starts to drop quick til you get to about 30% then it slows a bit. On average Brute probably have about 55% fury for the whole mish that is from the time you start the mish to finish, because I refuse to believe you are starting a mish with 75% on your fury bar and I definitely refuse to believe that once you get it there it stays. So with the fluctuation and given the time it take between and how you start, if you are able to sustain 75% or even 85% fury during most groups, that isn't what you start the fight with so saying a brute needs an average of 75% to match Scrapper level damage the fact is that unless you are at 75% or higher longer than you are below then you can't state that 75% is what on average brutes can attain, more realistic numbers would probably 60% - 65% on average and that is really pushing it seeing how I ran through a couple mishes and didn't get past 60% and I flew threw the whole mish (popped blues so end wouldn't be a problem)

So in the end Scrappers win for most purposes, brutes only win in environments that keep their fury bar above 75%. So more than likely for farms Brutes are better damage dealers, but on teams and when you just want to rush through an oro arc they ain't beating scrapper damage.

Got ya, sorry my mistake



Sure didn't feel like Scrapper level damage, and I guess because when you include Build up Brutes need a full fury bar to catch up, it may only be 10 secs but that is secs that a Brute needs to have build up and a Full Fury bar and it isn't like build up takes a long time to recharge. So if brutes average about 65% - 75% to keep up with Scraps then when Scraps use Build up they go ahead, and sets like DB and Claws hurt them even more as they can perma their damage buff powers requiring brutes to need to keep more Fury. On Average if a Claws Keeps double stacked FU then a Brute needs to Average about 80% Fury. Not sure why but one BF on DB Brutes need to keep an average of 83% Fury.

(Buffs were included on both sides)

So yeah 65%-75% Fury on average will keep you on Scrapper level damage, if it were a Scrapper that never uses BU or those type of attacks, but the more BU is used the more Scraps edge out to the lead.

Cyber, what do you mean by more mitigation?

Big difference most of my scrappers Soft cap so running into mob after mob is not a problem, doing that on my Brute doesn't keep fury up as it seems that defense works against Fury and running from mob to mob means a loss in fury. Scrapper lock only requires you to run to the next group after you are done killing the current group. Brutes lose fury chasing down a runaway, taking a tough boss, and moving to the next mobs.

Scrapper lock = Fury

As said before Fury requires a lot of attention and Scraps are always at full, Brutes are like Vegeta having to work and keep that fury up to match the damage of a Scrap, and Scraps are like Goku, not having to work as hard to maintain high DPS

(Too Tired, DBZ reference)


More outside damage you include the more fury a brute needs to catch up to the Scrap, the only time this doesn't matter is when there is a Kin, since Brutes have a higher damage cap.

Couple things that I find a bit wrong with this statement.

Pimped WPs have high defense and recharge, they already come with high regen. However WPs have very low debuff resistance, come to think of it, I don't think they have any debuff resistance. While other sets that get pimped out get the debuff protection that doesn't come in IOs. So not have any debuff resistance definitely drops it's place.

And, SR can easily be soft capped and by default has one of the highest defense debuff resistance, with minimal IOs you can take it to the softcap and honestly it is pretty good there and you have options to do other things like add hp, regen, recharge, etc. If anything I would say SR is the cheapest to really pimp out.

Yeah, looks like you get 2 of them, hopefully they will be your same level and have more than one attack, though I wouldn't be mad if they were -1 if they have a couple of attacks

The only thing I can say is solo /x8 mishes if you want one, teaming will only hurt your chances, I don't team until I get my drop for the day, or if I am bored.

Only 3 of 8 secondaries have a taunt aura, damage auras don't taunt or keep enemies from running away if anything they promote running away, atleast I know my Spine/Fire gets a lot of runaways when I farm.

I wouldn't want to limit anyone like that, plus SR and Regen are the most fun, WP is pretty boring

Bet you would solo better than an Emp/Force Field Buff/Buff AT

Wasn't saying that it would kill off /SR, was just offering another power suggestion to replace caltrops. As I said in my previous post, /Nin would fit well with the rest of the secondaries, I think it would be as balenced as the rest.

Yeah that is why I had to change what I said, considering all sets and what people that know how to use IOs do with them, it would probably well with the rest.

They would probably replace Caltrops with a Quickness clone and call it Ninja Training

Pretty sure it is a click and it stacks with 22.5% each go, giving you a total of 45% resistance to psi and you can achieve high levels of Toxic resistance as well and there are a couple of toxic attacks with no defense tags and all mind control attacks have no defense tags


Shields is nice they have resists and a HP increase along with damage increase and a high damage AoE attack, but again what are they going to do when they get hit and they also have no psi resists or defense.

I really don't like including sheilds that much because it limits powersets

Nin on the other hand can be built for softcap, it's not easy but it isn't that hard, and to have softcap defenses, with a non interruptable self heal is pretty nice, along with that they can reach about 45% resist on psi and depending on how you slot the heal you can reach high levels of toxic resists as well. As I said before the KB hole is laughably easy to plug with or without IOs


Basically what othersets do can easily be covered in power pools and set bonuses, but the other sets won't be able to easily acheive the High psi and toxic resists, and a non interruptable self heal.

No it isn't the best farming secondary, but I bet it would solo AVs a lot better than most sets.

I guess considering how most other powersets perform I was wrong calling it OP, but I wouldn't want scraps to get this set, I wouldn't be mad if they did, but some sets should just stay exclusive to an AT.

Oh and Welcome back