D0mbegone

I agree, if you've got the dough and time to twink, new doms are pretty great.

If you don't they are awkward and clunky like a 13 year old boy who just grew 8 inches over summer, is now the tallest in the class and is also afflicted with a bad case of teenage acne.

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Thats what we have been saying over and over and over,Unicycle.

If the majority likes that type of play then I guess this is a good"revamp". I don't like it on any AT.People play in different manners and I suppose its worth sacrificying a few for the good of the dominator as WHOLE. If Castle gets an extra 500 dominators across the servers thats a good thing , right?

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My feelings also. For me to continue playing the way I enjoy my doms I am now required to do very intense IO builds. I don't mind doing a couple IO builds for each faction, but most of my toons just get frankenslotted and perform where I expect. Test version doms can't do that for me with just fraken slotting, they need pretty aggressive builds.

As for increasing population; I think it is a poor goal because it is ultimately something he has no direct control over.

Things he does have control over would be goals like: doms need to on avg outdamage X metric. All steps are controllable and quantifiable. Popularity is measurable, but is a sum of qualitative factors, ie subjective perceptions.

That said, a simple rewrite of the AT description would probably increase popularity more than these changes will. A ton of casual players make their decision based on that screen, not on the theoretical dpe/dpa/dps of build x over build y.

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You should definitely add Fire Breath at that point you are hurting more targets by the time you kill the first one the next one will be at half health not even requiring a full attack chain.

But any way I would like to know how you got your numbers. Doing a chain of Blast>Blaze>Blast>Flares

Regular total damage would be 269.06
New Dom the totoal would be 430.57

Now I don't know how DPS is calculated, but if I were to take a guess it would be total damage/total activation time

If that is the case then dps would be as follow

Old - 61.15
New - 97

Plus with the new values Blaze and Flare overkill a minion so you won't really need that much of a chain.

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1. I said I was doing single target. The only time an aoe would be used is if it is more damaging than a st attack. Firebreath is not. So unless you want to see worse dps and higher endurance burn?

2. Try adding damage enhancements, and the live dom is perma as mentioned and supported by the recharge needed to fuel the chains used.

3. blast>blaze>blast>flares is IMPOSSIBLE on test with out a half second gap. And that is at the recharge cap, which nobody is hitting solo. Using high recharge of ~230% it would be a 1.3 second gap. Which sort of runs counter to a seamless chain no?

4. The numbers are straight off the test server, where dot is avg'd, some minor rounding occurred for both sets.

5. Your total activation time numbers are incorrect, you need to account for server ticks.

6. the chain you provided with 236% recharge would only produce 126.2 dps, so less than live, for more end and full of gaps. Thx but no thx.

I don't mind answering questions, but I can assure you this is not my first time at the rodeo

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I did edit, but a couple of thing that I am going to mention that really bring the test version out ahead.

1.) Biggest point the average gamer doesn't have 70% or higher on their recharge.

2.) 76% recharge is nothing to brag about one slow and you are back to regular dom with weak damage.

3.) To get the much recharge with a /Fire is extremely expensive unless the market has gotten better

4.) Also with that little recharge you have to live by hasten making sure you hit it once it comes up.

Yeah you may come out a little ahead endurance wise but too many factors play a role against bringing your damage down.

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I'm not sure of what point you are tying to make. I took the dom I play on live and figured out what it can do on test.

I chose a bare minimum perma dom because it is necessary to help fuel the builds end costs (both on live and test). If you are off of perma dom by even 1% you have to wait and refill the entire bar before you get the end replenishment. That can be quite some time on test especially.

I chose bare minimum perma dom because we were specifically told Castle was aiming to minimally impact them. I think he has abided by that agreement for /fire (once flares is fixed).

I chose a medium high level of recharge because it clearly shows that FE is extremely desirable with new doms.

You've kind of lost me. At one point you seem to be attacking my build (for w/e reason) and say 76% is nothing to brag about (even though I certainly never did, If I wanted to brag I'd be talking about my fire/storm troller), then you proceed to say it is extremely expensive...

I built my earth/fire perma dom for about 50-70 mill.

You seem to have an obvious issue with what I've posted for some reason. So I'd like to explore that. What level of recharge would you like me to use and what attacks do you want me to include? I'm not keen on doing aoe calculations, Starsman has already done an excellent job on that front. And the vast majority of attacks a dom uses over its career are st.

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I am still scratching my head. Do you immobilize foes on an ice slick? Do you immobilize goes in an earthquake? Is seeds of confusion any more or less productive if the targets are flopping helplessly on a surface?

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No to iceslick>shiver and arc air are better if you apply frostbite w/ FR

Sometimes yes to earthquake > if stalag or volc gas is down. It has a sizeable -tohit.

Yes seeds is much less effective if they are flopping. the same principle that prevents them from damaging you prevents them from damaging each other, which is a large part of why you use seeds.

I really like having 2 nados follow me around, since the LS nerf it is imo the second best power in the set. IME only the sets with an aoe -kb can let me play that way effectively.

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I can speak to /fire most accurately. I'm still crunching for everything else, plus I don't want to do it right now (got a good book to read in my spare time).

I run a mild earth/fire perma dom (76% global, hasten)
(arcana time factored)
On live I use:
chain of
blast>blaze>blast>flare>repeat
Requires:
0% rech in flare
236% rech in fireblast
144% rech in blaze

Consumes:
4.64 EPS

FE is up ~50% of the time

AVG dps = 129.6 (dot has been avg'd)
w/ FE AvG dps = 170.3

That is a heap of ranged damage for a very reasonable end cost imo.

On test:
chain of
flare>blast>flare>blaze>repeat
requires:
236% rech in flares
124% rech in fireblast
214% rech in blaze

consumes:
6.14 EPS

FE is up ~50% of the time
AVG dps = 140.4
w/ FE AVG dps = 202.5

Analysis:
Damage increase = 1.08x as much
FE Dam increase = 1.19x as much

Endurance consumption increase = 1.32x as much

With just stamina and 30% end red slotting:
Live is sustainable for - 92.6 seconds
Test is sustainable for - 44.8 seconds

Interpretation:
Endurance has increased a LOT more than damage has increased.
Recharge requirements are overall higher on test than live.
Zero (or very close to it) endurance issues on live. Significant end drain on test.

I'll post a chain with incinerate in a sec.
edit: added it to the dom feedback thread

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You should definitely add Fire Breath at that point you are hurting more targets by the time you kill the first one the next one will be at half health not even requiring a full attack chain.

But any way I would like to know how you got your numbers. Doing a chain of Blast>Blaze>Blast>Flares

Regular total damage would be 269.06
New Dom the totoal would be 430.57

Now I don't know how DPS is calculated, but if I were to take a guess it would be total damage/total activation time

If that is the case then dps would be as follow

Old - 61.15
New - 97

Plus with the new values Blaze and Flare overkill a minion so you won't really need that much of a chain.

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1. I said I was doing single target. The only time an aoe would be used is if it is more damaging than a st attack. Firebreath is not. So unless you want to see worse dps and higher endurance burn?

2. Try adding damage enhancements, and the live dom is perma as mentioned and supported by the recharge needed to fuel the chains used.

3. blast>blaze>blast>flares is IMPOSSIBLE on test with out a half second gap. And that is at the recharge cap, which nobody is hitting solo. Using high recharge of ~230% it would be a 1.3 second gap. Which sort of runs counter to a seamless chain no?

4. The numbers are straight off the test server, where dot is avg'd, some minor rounding occurred for both sets.

5. Your total activation time numbers are incorrect, you need to account for server ticks.

6. the chain you provided with 236% recharge would only produce 126.2 dps, so less than live, for more end and full of gaps. Thx but no thx.

I don't mind answering questions, but I can assure you this is not my first time at the rodeo

doms are the vill side blasters. They play very similar in pvp now.

They are both really good.

fire/elec is one of the highest damage toons in the game and with powersink you never need to worry about endurance (incl. stamina of course)

fire/ice is like a sweet nuking controller. Shiver is amazing. But ime it is mostly just about buildup and shiver spam for /ice. Not that that is necessarily bad.

I've done both into the 40's. I personally love powersink on an endurance hungry blaster and the elec melee attacks look pretty cool.

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With high recharge builds DB will blow SS out of the water still. At least vs single targets. Double rage means double crash. Over time it kills your DPS.


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From the "high recharge" link in my sig where BillZ used the chains provided (note: procs not included):<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
Brute Dark w/ 10 222.7 4.53 EPS
Scrap Dark w/ 10 222 4 EPS
Brute Stone 218 5.2 EPS
Brute Fiery 213.2 3.83 EPS
Brute Strength 212.6 4.59 EPS
Brute Energy 207.4 3.84 EPS
Brute Warmace 203.4 4.71 EPS
Brute Dark w/ 3 201.7 4.53 EPS
Brute Dark w/ 1 194.7 4.53 EPS
Scrap Fiery 190.3 3.48 EPS
Brute Battleaxe 187.2 4.34 EPS
Scrap Dark w/ 3 181 4 EPS
Scrap Dual Blades 169.7 4.42 EPS
Scrap Dark w/ 1 169.3 4 EPS
Brute Electric 169 4.69 EPS
Brute Dual Blades 168.3 4.42 EPS</pre><hr />

At extremely high recharge, Electric Melee outdoes Dual Blades.

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lol dual blades, at least you get camspin during thousand cuts!!!

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I'm not sure where I should ask, and I've been kinda away during the test process, but I wanted to find out what effect the changes have on endurance consumption? The one post I saw a redname reply to that was Dom feedback was that the endurance useage was even more of a hog than ever at low levels. I also happened to notice some patch notes about damage going up (yay), recharge going up (boo) and endurance going up (boo) on some of the powers.

As frustrating as it is as a dominator having little plinky attacks at low levels, heck at all levels, at least I get to use them quickly. I can't stand slower attacks or heavier endurance useage, and the one post where Castle (I think?) said "this is feedback I can use" the complaint was of harder endurance useage at low levels.

So, in a nutshell, in a sentence or two, what are the results of the change? With damage, end, and recharge going up, is it the same damage over time only it feels like more? Or is it really more? Did the end cost actually go up? Does it feel slow?

I just havent had time to get on test (life keeping me busy) but I'd like to know what I'm in for when I get a chance go jump back in (which will be post I15, most likely).

Thanks,

Lewis

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I can speak to /fire most accurately. I'm still crunching for everything else, plus I don't want to do it right now (got a good book to read in my spare time).

I run a mild earth/fire perma dom (76% global, hasten)
(arcana time factored)
On live I use:
chain of
blast&gt;blaze&gt;blast&gt;flare&gt;repeat
Requires:
0% rech in flare
236% rech in fireblast
144% rech in blaze

Consumes:
4.64 EPS

FE is up ~50% of the time

AVG dps = 129.6 (dot has been avg'd)
w/ FE AvG dps = 170.3

That is a heap of ranged damage for a very reasonable end cost imo.

On test:
chain of
flare&gt;blast&gt;flare&gt;blaze&gt;repeat
requires:
236% rech in flares
124% rech in fireblast
214% rech in blaze

consumes:
6.14 EPS

FE is up ~50% of the time
AVG dps = 140.4
w/ FE AVG dps = 202.5

Analysis:
Damage increase = 1.08x as much
FE Dam increase = 1.19x as much

Endurance consumption increase = 1.32x as much

With just stamina and 30% end red slotting:
Live is sustainable for - 92.6 seconds
Test is sustainable for - 44.8 seconds

Interpretation:
Endurance has increased a LOT more than damage has increased.
Recharge requirements are overall higher on test than live.
Zero (or very close to it) endurance issues on live. Significant end drain on test.

I'll post a chain with incinerate in a sec.
edit: added it to the dom feedback thread

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10 feet.

EDIT: Odd. Corruptor Soul Drain is also 10 feet, but all other versions are 15 feet. Bugging that now.

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You're not the first to bug it.

I've been using powersink for a long time on my fire/elec and ice/elec blasters so DP is ok for me. I agree though that mixed ranges for cones/pbaoes in the same set can be annoying (hence why so many put a range or two in teny tenticles for dark).

I'm also feeling a lot of pressure to pick Mu patron for my doms now to handle the burn.

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Problem with bugging things like that is they might take it the wrong way. I kinda feel bad for all the people that bugged Soul Drain's 240-second recharge when only Corruptors had that version, and then Defenders and Dominators had theirs increased as well. Apparently the radius on the Dark Melee version of Soul Drain is also 10 feet - I'd like to see all versions at 15 feet but I know more than likely they'll bump all of them down to 10 feet. Corruptor version also has a lower target cap (7 vs 10).

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Is arguably much easier to amputate than it is to increase the length of a limb

Hence why we see so many things cut off at the knees.

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imo the good thing about the troller sets that do aoe -kb is that they have tools to make it so the popcorn of freezing rain is unnecessary.

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What?? Why would freezing rain be unnecessary? Knockdown is mitigation in that foes don't shoot while getting up, they do shoot while immobilized. Surely the -defense/-resistance is useful in freezing rain.

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Freezing rain is awesome. I just said they have tools to make the popcorn, or chain kd effect unnecessary.

ie plant can fire seeds at which point is actually better they aren't flopping around.

earth, heh good ole earth it has tons of tricks. Of course stalags is up often, volc gases seems to work very well with freezing rain and even earthquake works in a pinch due to the -tohit debuff.

fire is more limited, but flashfire is good. Most spawns die well before freezing rain expires anyway.

Ice toss out shiver and then stand in there with arc air going and no one fires back.

I love my aoe -kb on my fire/storm because I love having tornado out all the time. My fire/storm does my st and aoe damage than my storm/sonic. Both are heavily IO'd.

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With high recharge builds DB will blow SS out of the water still. At least vs single targets. Double rage means double crash. Over time it kills your DPS.

To be fair, footstomp + rage + 2 patron aoe attacks will be much better than DB can put out in the aoe department.

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And really aoe is what shines best in the pve game.

Like I said though BF and follow up are awesome powers, but rage is just as good as either of them, probably better where it counts.

Careful, keep server mergers to no more than a whisper. Some people seem to really like playing a single player MMO

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What about blinding feint being dbl stacked? No penalty there?
I'd also like to point this out for those who may not have seen it. Nice little spreadsheet by Billz
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat....e=0&amp;fpart=1
He did all the math for us!!

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Blinding feint and follow up are indeed awesome.

The big difference for them is that they roll a tohit check and require in combat time to "self buff". They do ok damage though which is nice.

Perma double stacked BF, for which you require 169% recharge enhancement is still less less damage buff than perma rage. 60% vs 80% (73.8% with rage downtime factored in).

If we applied that same 169% recharge to rage you get an 90.3 second cycle time. Which means 50% of the time you have double rage. So even more of a lopsided comparison.
60% vs 120% (106.7% with rage crash factored in).

Rage of course is effective with just rech enhancement. Blinding feint requires acc, rech, and damage to not suck.

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One, the question was on the one specific power, that was why I mentioned taking it out of the set, and commented on not really being overpowered.

Two, SS in not fully balanced on rage. SS has a quick recharge power as it's first power, and lacks a third tier attack on a 10-12 second timer. Other sets with a 2-3 second at the start tend to have more quick recharging attacks to build an attack chain sooner. Really looking at the numbers SS actually does fall in line with most brute attack formulas before Rage, which makes me think rage is overpowered before double stacking.


Three Footstomp is overpowered, it doesn't follow the aoe attack formula. It's radius is out of proportion.

I also disagree that it is fine as is. Rage needs to lose the -defense.

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The bottom line is, WITH rage, SS does damage on par with other top sets like SM and EM, which has been shown in several calculations by many posters on these boards. In fact at the top end, even with rage, it does less damage than sets like stone melee. Without rage, SS would be a bottom feeder in regards to damage dealing ability. So clearly, SS was in fact balanced with rage in mind, or maybe the devs just got really, really lucky.

And I do not agree that footstomp is 'too good'. Again, it's SS's only aoe power and only real dmg mitigation, and it's the set's teir nine power - it should be very good and it is. And the idea that it doesn't follow some inconsistent 'formula' and that makes it 'too powerful' is nonsense. They put in a static 'formula' in pvp, how'd that work out?

Could SS be redone and rebalanced? Sure. But why, lol? SS is a set the vast majority of players are very happy with, outside the kiddies using competing sets who have some kind of bizarre set envy, lol. As I've said, the devs would be wise to focus their time and effort fixing the things that are not liked by players rather than messing with things that most of the players like. Or they can keep listening to the nerf monkeys and keep running off customers. If the devs are really worried about SS with all the problems and underplayed powersets in this game, then COH is headed in the wrong direction.

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While I'm not disagreeing with you, this line of thinking holds no water with the powers that be.

I think they have moved away from balancing sets "as a whole" (for damage dealing sets) and have moved much more toward a power by power standardization/balancing system.

Everyone knows when SS gets "adjusted" it is going to come with a lot of dev hate. It might be the most popular set in the game! That's why I say Castle will hide it in the patches that follow shortly after Going Rogue.
*by hide I don't mean stealth nerf I mean distract with one hand (GR) while you pull your trick with the other (nerf SS).

2.2x sounds about right, I knew it had to be over two by a bit

Bare in mind that fire cycles through its attacks faster than rad, so the apoc proc fires a bit more often.

Plus with pvp IO's you can now have a toxic proc in each st ranged attack.

If you have the cash they can both be proc'd quite well. (2 dam procs in the same power can be tough to get high acc, dam, rech values).

Any of the "AV solo'ing " secondaries can fit the achiles -res proc.

Another thing to remember is that achiles -res proc won't stack from the same caster. So if you put it in rad attacks at most it will only ever single stack. There are ways for the same toon to get it to stack though. Psuedo pets (ie sleet, or acid mortar) is technically viewed as a different caster by the game (also why you can stack the effects of sleet, despite all of it saying "does not stack from same caster).

I'll just say it; if AV's are your thing you want fire/traps. It does it fast and easy.
you get:
-highest damage corr blast set, also endurance efficient for the damage it does
-full time mez protection (a lot of AV's can mez)
-just shy of 16% def to get you on your way to ranged softcap (nice!)
-ranged immob (keeps av planted in one spot)
-stackable -res power (easy to have double acid mortar out for -40% res before achilies proc) = highest consistent -res of the secondaries
-AV regen shut down. PGT is twice as powerful as the other regen killing powers.
-Triage becon shines when you are standing in one spot for a long time
-Seeker drones can provide alot of -dam, similar to /cold and /dark. -dam is very effective on AVs.

All that said, traps is generally not a very popular set and it doesn't play nice in teams. So you may want to go fire/rad.

True enough, but it is a lot easier to have two nados following my fire/storm troller around than it is for my storm/sonic def .

imo the good thing about the troller sets that do aoe -kb is that they have tools to make it so the popcorn of freezing rain is unnecessary. Though crushing field or teny tenticles +FR is pretty nice. I enjoy the latter on my cold/dark def (well sleet, but same thing).

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10 feet.

EDIT: Odd. Corruptor Soul Drain is also 10 feet, but all other versions are 15 feet. Bugging that now.

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You're not the first to bug it.

I've been using powersink for a long time on my fire/elec and ice/elec blasters so DP is ok for me. I agree though that mixed ranges for cones/pbaoes in the same set can be annoying (hence why so many put a range or two in teny tenticles for dark).

I'm also feeling a lot of pressure to pick Mu patron for my doms now to handle the burn.

Freedom, freedom, freedom OY!

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Increasing recharge is okay as long as the DPS in total remains about the same.

Inbetween your gaps in your attack chain, you can throw out controls. Remember that doms have a pure dual purpose now: Damage and Control. Do both. All the time.

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Not sure if this was directed at me, but my dom's have always played dual purpose. Isn't that how they were and are supposed to play?

That said there are innumerable encounters where you use 2 seconds to control and then have no further need to interject control again and just go into pure damage mode.

However people seem to be suggesting that even in these scenarios doms should continue to spam control powers?

I wonder if these people realize that control powers are extremely taxing on the end bar (ie st immob/hold are very poor endurance for the damage they produce).

I'm not ok with the idea that casual players are magically going to know they should use chilbain to fill an attack chain. And if/when they do that they should be slotting it for damage or else deal with even higher endurance spent for damage produced.

If I get around to it I'll post some numbers on what happens to a live dom with a fluid low end cost assualt chain compared to a test dom that interjects an unslotted st immob as a filler into a high dpa, gaped chain.

A sneak preview: it makes end consumption go through the roof and makes the shiny new damage buff start to rust.

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Please make sure and base the comparison off so slotting so people actually get an idea of whats going on here. Thank you. After all the "revamp" is to make Dominators more appealing to casual players. Casual players are not likely to preplan a build or invest much in io slotting.

Then do another comparison with optimum slotting and let them all see the difference.

Also make sure and do the comparison from 20-30 and 30-40... make thescale for those 2 segments a comparison against a tier3 perma lvl 50.

I am seriously not being snarky. I am simply pointing out that the changes thus far are still going to render Dominator abondonment pre io's. The changes neccesitate a + recharge build no matter what the powersets. Further widens the gap between casual and minmax that everyone seems to so object to.

Does this change effect any of my doms? Not really except they will be better .But if the goal is to attract more people to playing dominator's the proposed changes are not the answer.

With all due respect, I dont know what the answer IS. But this isnt it and I bet anyone on the boards a billion influence that the damage modifiers will be lowered within 3 months of going live. If not sooner.

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I'll do as many scenarios as I can. I'll proly just do it for a few assault sets. Can't right now though have horrible wife agro haha. I'll see if I get some downtime at work tomorrow.

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I mean no one thinks they are right all the time right? No one could possibly think the opinion they is the absolute right one for every other being right?

[/ QUOTE ]I do, but I try to reign it in around other people. Then the guys with the labcoats put the needle in my neck and it gets easier to manage.

In all seriousness, some of this discussion is completely psychotic. Do people just not socket endurance reduction?

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Honestly? never more than 30-70% in any attack. Compared to 50-95% recharge.

I usually 4-5 slot a "set" which gets me from about 30-50% end red. If the attack is costly and spammed the last one/two slots go to things like "dam/end". If it isn't costly they go to "dam/rech" (or tri's of those with acc).

The way doms are on test those last slots always do to dam/end now. That might be ok, but they NEED more recharge too, or else I get gaps. I don't like gaps and I hate gaps on an IO build, simply inexcusable.

For a SO build I typically go 2acc, 3dam, 1 rech. I generally fight +2's and higher (like most teams) so the second acc is needed (unless I'm playing my dirt dom).

On live that SO slotting can usually get me a solid chain, on test it can't without "filler" things like the st immob, which pardon my french is [censored] as an attack.

Said SO slotting only make the end issues worse. Slotting an end red instead of the rech makes the gaps worse. Pick your poison

I prefer acc, dam and rech as attack focus for every AT in the game. I'm not prepared to change that paradigm for doms. I look to outside powers to handle my end needs. So for i15 doms that means a push toward perma dom because perma dom is WAY better for end refil than a build that is even 1% away from perma dom. And I'm forced into mu for powersink.

Workable for sure, but pretty constricted.

/eng is the only set I'm really interested to roll with. I've done /elec, /fire, and /ice on live and none of the changes made to them make me want to do it again.

/psi I'm saying meh to, I don't want another extreme recharge build which is what I'd do with DP available.

/thorns is just awful with the constant redraw imo.

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It's absolutely not overpowered when you consider the sets, and you have to consider the sets... to compare sets... and then claim 'overpowered', lol.

Rage simply allows SS to do damage on par with competing sets - without it, it's clearly sub-par. With rage, its a top damaging set, but to achieve this, you have to use an entire power, and slot it, just to do damage similar to that of competing sets like SM, that don't have to use the extra power and slots. Now the to hit bonus is great, but SS definitely pays for it with an end crash, 10 seconds of uselessness every couple of minutes and a defense penalty every couple of minutes.

Then people complain about footstomp, and yeah, it's a great power, but it SHOULD be, because it's SS's only aoe power and it's the sets tier 9 power. Remove footstomp from SS and the set is pretty damn lackluster, with a bunch of pitiful single target attacks with little to no damage mitigation.

The bottom line is, SS is fine as-is. It's a popular set that many players/customers LOVE. If it aint broke, don't fix it. This game would be a HELL of a lot better if the devs focused on fixing things players didn't like, or sets that players/customers didn't play (by improving them and making them more attractive) rather than nerfing and messing with sets and powers their customers clearly enjoy, as evidenced by their popularity.



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whoa, deja vu.
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(see sig)

arch/mm, arch/fire

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hi guys,

What is there to do when you hit the maximum level?
is there enough to do when you hit the maximum level, and does it keep fun? just your opinions please. thanks already

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If you are into twinking your toon then lvl 50 is where you want to be (possible throughout the game though). If you want to pvp, having a lvl 50 build is what you want.

Aside from that there is very little that is possible at 50 that you can do at other levels.