Cyber_naut

Arc Name: The Rule of Law
Arc ID: 191959
Faction: Hero or Villain
Creator Global/Forum Name: @Cyber-naut
Difficulty Level: Hard - Custom critters & AV's - bring team or play on heroic
Estimated Time to Play: 1-2 Hours
Synopsis: Join a covert government agency tasked with bringing lawless super-powered beings under control. This arc ends with a choice to continue with one of 2 different arcs, 'Just Outlaws (ID 177335)' or 'Just Law (ID 189598).

Give 'em a try if you think you're sexy enough...

Arc Name: The Rule of Law
Arc ID: 191959
Faction: Hero or Villain
Creator Global/Forum Name: @Cyber-naut
Difficulty Level: Hard - Custom critters & AV's - bring team or play on heroic
Estimated Time to Play: 1-2 Hours
Synopsis: Join a covert government agency tasked with bringing lawless super-powered beings under control. This arc ends with a choice to continue with one of 2 different arcs, 'Just Outlaws (ID 177335)' or 'Just Law (ID 189598).

Give 'em a try if you think you're sexy enough...

Arc Name: The Rule of Law
Arc ID: 191959
Faction: Hero or Villain
Creator Global/Forum Name: @Cyber-naut
Difficulty Level: Hard - Custom critters & AV's - bring team or play on heroic
Estimated Time to Play: 1-2 Hours
Synopsis: Join a covert government agency tasked with bringing lawless super-powered beings under control. This arc ends with a choice to continue with one of 2 different arcs, 'Just Outlaws (ID 177335)' or 'Just Law (ID 189598).

Give 'em a try if you think you're sexy enough...

Arc Name: The Rule of Law
Arc ID: 191959
Faction: Hero or Villain
Creator Global/Forum Name: @Cyber-naut
Difficulty Level: Hard - Custom critters & AV's - bring team or play on heroic
Estimated Time to Play: 1-2 Hours
Synopsis: Join a covert government agency tasked with bringing lawless super-powered beings under control. This arc ends with a choice to continue with one of 2 different arcs, 'Just Outlaws (ID 177335)' or 'Just Law (ID 189598).

Give 'em a try if you think you're sexy enough...

Arc Name: The Rule of Law
Arc ID: 191959
Faction: Hero or Villain
Creator Global/Forum Name: @Cyber-naut
Difficulty Level: Hard - Custom critters & AV's - bring team or play on heroic
Estimated Time to Play: 1-2 Hours
Synopsis: Join a covert government agency tasked with bringing lawless super-powered beings under control. This arc ends with a choice to continue with one of 2 different arcs, 'Just Outlaws (ID 177335)' or 'Just Law (ID 189598).

Give 'em a try if you think you're sexy enough...

Arc Name: The Rule of Law
Arc ID: 191959
Faction: Hero or Villain
Creator Global/Forum Name: @Cyber-naut
Difficulty Level: Hard - Custom critters & AV's - bring team or play on heroic
Estimated Time to Play: 1-2 Hours
Synopsis: Join a covert government agency tasked with bringing lawless super-powered beings under control. This arc ends with a choice to continue with one of 2 different arcs, 'Just Outlaws (ID 177335)' or 'Just Law (ID 189598).

Give 'em a try if you think you're sexy enough...

Arc Name: The Rule of Law
Arc ID: 191959
Faction: Hero or Villain
Creator Global/Forum Name: @Cyber-naut
Difficulty Level: Hard - Custom critters & AV's - bring team or play on heroic
Estimated Time to Play: 1-2 Hours
Synopsis: Join a covert government agency tasked with bringing lawless super-powered beings under control. This arc ends with a choice to continue with one of 2 different arcs, 'Just Outlaws (ID 177335)' or 'Just Law (ID 189598).

Give 'em a try if you think you're sexy enough...

Arc Name: The Rule of Law
Arc ID: 191959
Faction: Hero or Villain
Creator Global/Forum Name: @Cyber-naut
Difficulty Level: Hard - Custom critters & AV's - bring team or play on heroic
Estimated Time to Play: 1-2 Hours
Synopsis: Join a covert government agency tasked with bringing lawless super-powered beings under control. This arc ends with a choice to continue with one of 2 different arcs, 'Just Outlaws (ID 177335)' or 'Just Law (ID 189598).

Give 'em a try if you think you're sexy enough...

Arc Name: The Rule of Law
Arc ID: 191959
Faction: Hero or Villain
Creator Global/Forum Name: @Cyber-naut
Difficulty Level: Hard - Custom critters & AV's - bring team or play on heroic
Estimated Time to Play: 1-2 Hours
Synopsis: Join a covert government agency tasked with bringing lawless super-powered beings under control. This arc ends with a choice to continue with one of 2 different arcs, 'Just Outlaws (ID 177335)' or 'Just Law (ID 189598).

Give 'em a try if you think you're sexy enough...

Arc Name: The Rule of Law
Arc ID: 191959
Faction: Hero or Villain
Creator Global/Forum Name: @Cyber-naut
Difficulty Level: Hard - Custom critters & AV's - bring team or play on heroic
Estimated Time to Play: 1-2 Hours
Synopsis: Join a covert government agency tasked with bringing lawless super-powered beings under control. This arc ends with a choice to continue with one of 2 different arcs, 'Just Outlaws (ID 177335)' or 'Just Law (ID 189598).

Give 'em a try if you think you're sexy enough...

Arc Name: The Rule of Law
Arc ID: 191959
Faction: Hero or Villain
Creator Global/Forum Name: @Cyber-naut
Difficulty Level: Hard - Custom critters & AV's - bring team or play on heroic
Estimated Time to Play: 1-2 Hours
Synopsis: Join a covert government agency tasked with bringing lawless super-powered beings under control. This arc ends with a choice to continue with one of 2 different arcs, 'Just Outlaws (ID 177335)' or 'Just Law (ID 189598).

Give 'em a try if you think you're sexy enough...

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So here's the real question:

Is the Brute versus Scrapper damage argument put to rest? Can we all agree that 3% damage difference is low enough to ignore?

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I think we can ignore it once scrapper health, def/res caps, and aggro mitigation is within 3% of brutes.

I love both of these AT's but it's pretty obvious that one of them has a clear advantage over the other, lol.

Good job on the calculations bill.

Katana - finesse feel, very sexy, fast elegant attacks
Broadsword - powerful feel, very brutal, slow viscious attacks

Very similar performance overall, but I prefer katana because it's faster and easier to get a smooth attack chain from day one.

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The argument in this thread sounds a bit like scrappers getting all in an uproar because one AT in the game might be even more broken than we are.

Be careful. When one gazes long into the nerfbat, the nerfbat gazes into you.

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Nonsense. First of all, if any AT should be able to solo an AV, it should be the AT designed to be best at soloing. Yet we have AT's that are clearly superior to scrappers on teams also soloing av's, and in many cases, faster than scrappers.

Going further, is the scrapper AT the most popular for wiping out maps spawned for a full team? Do TF's and SF's save spots and require a scrapper?

If the scrapper AT is broken, then the rest of the AT's are hella-broken, lol. And that includes the brute AT that has more HP and better resist caps which guarantees better survivability on average, while doing similar damage and in many cases eclipsing scrapper damage. There is simply no arguing these facts - the brute ALWAYS has better survivability while still outclassing the scrapper in damage dealing in some cases. That is not balanced.

And I'm NOT calling for a nerf to brutes or any at for that matter. I'm simply looking to even the playing field. While all the squishy at's got their soloing ability buffed throughout the life of this game, scrappers have never gotten anything to buff their contribution to team play. If 'squishies' can now solo maps set for 8 and avs and gm's, in some cases even faster than scrappers, then shouldn't scrappers be given something to make them more valuable to a team? Of course they should. And in a head to head contest, wouldn't you rather have a brute on your team when the brute can deal similar damage while being more survivable and better at aggro management? Again, of course, which is why scrappers should get some sort of team buff, imo.

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Rather than use the numbers as a justification for any kind of expected change in anything, I see them more as "Hey, I want to try out that build for a ride!" sentiment, to see how certain combinations can work when you really give it the work-through.

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Which was actually my goal. This whole thing started because I was looking for how to best optimize my claws/sr scrapper and em/fa brute. Then I thought about how much damage the fm/sd combo must push out and wanted to know how best to configure that.

This whole exercise just steamrolled from there.

I had no intentions of this becoming a "scrappers need buffed" "brutes need nerfed" "gloom is of the devil" thread.

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You are innocent, blame me for the comparison, I'll be the bad guy, lol. Sorry, but when I see that kind of disparity, I think it needs to be pointed out, especially if they plan on mixing blue and redside.

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I don't think there needs to be any manner of buff, I don't see a disparity between brute and scrapper power from this.

keep in mind that in a buff heavy environment, those scrapper chains are going to get a hell of a lot more from every point of +damage than their counterparts.

Do Brutes have a higher + damage cap? sure, but they need all of it just to equal what one fulcrum shift can do for a scrapper.

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AT's should not be balanced by how well they are buffed by other outside at's, especially when looking at only a few specific powers like fulcrum shift. If we do that, granite armor is way too powerful because kins let them move quickly, or buffed blasters are too powerful because they have too much damage mitigation for the ranged damage they put out.

From the info I've seen, brutes eclipse scrapper dmg far too often considering the fact they always have better dmg mitigation. And top-end, scrappers should have the dmg advantage in most cases because brutes clearly have dmg mitigation advantage at the top end, and this info clearly demonstrates that brutes have dmg dealing and dmg mitigation superiority on the top end. That's clearly imbalanced, and it's even less defensible when you consider the two at's share many of the same powersets.

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After looking through this whole thread, I would have to agree with Sarrate that the analysis is probably overrated. This would really only work for totally tricked out builds that could be impractical for most of the gameplay and players here. Yes, for some of the tougher challenges like AV hunting and Pylon soloing these comparisons could be nice in an academic discussion, but the conditions of these numbers seem to be pretty exclusive from most of the game.

The +250% recharge, though definitely possible for some builds, is still pretty high for anything without using IO set bonuses or external buffs. Assuming 90% recharge enhanced for each power, Hasten tacked on, and maybe another buff like Quickness from /SR, you are still looking at 70-90% more global recharge. That seems to be out of reach except for the most dedicated builds.

Also assuming Fury at 90% is pretty high standard, which is definitely not the practice for Brutes at all times. Yes, I know it's probably not that difficult to generate Fury, but general gameplay seems to see Fury peak at 70-80% as the highest attained for most of the time, with the average being lower than that. Getting even higher Fury then involves getting specific conditions which could also put the Brute's survival at risk, and that does take some time to do.

I seriously don't think the developers will take these numbers as an indication of any need of balance between sets or ATs (though I'm not saying there is or there isn't a need for it in any case). That +250% recharge is figured into these calculations puts them way beyond the SO enhancement values that most of the games seems to be revolved around.

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I think the results basically confirm my belief that when under most optimal situation, Brute has the GREATEST potential, which is pretty much what the AT is designed for.

I've been playing this game a lot but I don't have any lvl 50 Brute. My highest is only lvl 42 Dark/Elec Brute. Why? Because I don't like keeping Fury. I like to chat, make jokes and team a lot. I find that when I play Brute, I need to focus on too much like "go, go, go!!". And I hate losing Fury when it happens so naturally I find Brute AT not as fun.

I've been playing Stalker a lot and I find Stalker's damage is a lot higher when I want it. I assume Stalker and Scrapper are pretty similar when it comes to initial burst damage.

I am not surprised Brute is a bit higher than Scrapper but I highly doubt you can keep fury high all the time. There's bound to be "down-time" during mish.


I am surprised that War Mace still ranks that low even after all the buffs. Imagine how bad it was before?? LOL

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Warmace is low? LOL, it's ahead of every single scrapper set except dark melee with SD saturated with 10 targets...

And why should a brute have greater damage 'potential' than a scrapper when the brute always has better damage mitigation?

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BZB, try KOB > Punch > Hurl > Punch > Haymaker for the SS scrapper. I get 207.8 DPS, placing it just behind Brute SS.

This to me shows clearly that Super Strength is overrated, if it wasn't for Gloom it wouldn't be that highly rated at all. It's still a great set since it gets good AE damage as well, but not the end all be all that Brutes make it out to be.

A few things to note for those who thinks Brutes looks too good:

First, Gloom. It takes 3.6 seconds before it finishes ticking, which means that in regular play it often doesn't have time to do it's full damage. I still feel it needs nerfing, but worth pointing out. If you look at the weapon sets you'll see how big a difference that power makes.

Second, Fury. BZB is using 90% fury for his calculations. This is as high as you get it while constantly fighting. The second you stop it'll drop. The average fury is lower than this, how much depends on the player and team.

Third, damage buffs. Any damage buffs you get will be more noticable on a Scrapper, until a bit after the Scrapper has hit the cap. This means things like AAO, Assault, popping an Enrage, Fortitude, etc will make the Scrapper deal more damage.

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Good post, especially the SS part. Somebody forward this stuff to the devs, lol.

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One thing I find odd is that brute dark and fire do more dmg than the scrapper version, but scrapper db does more than brute db, anybody guess why that is?

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Gloom. Brute Dark and Fire use it. Brute DB doesn't.

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that SS is too good for scrappers is complete BS

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Yup.

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Yeah, my Fortunata took Gloom as well and skipped some of the primary attacks. Gloom is really good once you have good recharge. It's fast and it does good dmg and it's ranged too so it's even better for Brute to have one reliable range attack to kill runners.

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Gloom does not approve of this thread.

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That's cool, but the problem is that brutes are still out-damaging scrappers all over the place. I guess the solution is to give scrappers more access to plus damage. More fuel for the 'SS for scrappers' campaign!

[/ QUOTE ]The problem with this assessment is that these findings are reflective of a small band of build performance. For instance, Chaos's BS/SD scrapper can reach a DPS of 230+ (about an 80 point difference). Then there's Shred's DM/SD who reached 290+.

Bill's findings should be seen as an assessment of the MINIMUM DPS a particular attack chain can achieve, not its maximum.

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There was another thread recently that showed a much larger 'band' and brutes outdid scrappers far too often imo, especially when you consider the fact they ALWAYS have better damage mitigation.

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My personal preference would be for Scrappers to simply get a damage increase.

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This. Or some kind of buff, preferably to make them more valuable in teams. And I'm sure now there will be a torrent of 'scrappers are too powerful already', yet scrappers are never a 'needed' at for a tf or sf, they're not the best at to solo large spawns (in fact the supposedly dominant solo at is often outdone by squishy at's...), and yeah, they can solo av's, but other at's that are far better for teams, and are supposed to be weaker soloers in exchange, can also solo them, and in many cases, even faster, lol.

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And I keep hearing about the damage bonus advantage scrappers have, shouldn't that show up in the DM comparison when SD is charged with 10 targets. I guess gloom is messing up that comparison, maybe bill can fire up the brain for one more comparison and figure out the next best brute chain without gloom, and we can see better what the dmg mod advantage is.

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The advantage is actually showing up. Going from 3 targets to 10 causes a Brute's DPS to jump by 21 points. For a scrapper, this jump is 41 points. This gap will only get larger as more +damage is added to both.

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That's cool, but the problem is that brutes are still out-damaging scrappers all over the place. I guess the solution is to give scrappers more access to plus damage. More fuel for the 'SS for scrappers' campaign!

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isnt it mainly down to the epics? scrappers are LONG overdue for at least one more, they should have access to the tank ones IMO, body mastery/energy mastery is a clone on both ATs after all

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Not imo - look at DB for example, scrappers and brutes are doing pretty much identical damage while brutes have far better durability.

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Boo

Claws still second to last...
Well atleast it's not MA...

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Yeah, but we've seen what a properly IO'd up claws can do, right, lol?

Plus it's gotta be just under spines for best in aoe abilities.

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And I keep hearing about the damage bonus advantage scrappers have, shouldn't that show up in the DM comparison when SD is charged with 10 targets. I guess gloom is messing up that comparison, maybe bill can fire up the brain for one more comparison and figure out the next best brute chain without gloom, and we can see better what the dmg mod advantage is.

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The advantage is actually showing up. Going from 3 targets to 10 causes a Brute's DPS to jump by 21 points. For a scrapper, this jump is 41 points. This gap will only get larger as more +damage is added to both.

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That's cool, but the problem is that brutes are still out-damaging scrappers all over the place. I guess the solution is to give scrappers more access to plus damage. More fuel for the 'SS for scrappers' campaign!

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I only have one Brute at 50, and while I know anecdote isn't evidence, I had the same impression as you. It felt like I had more damage and was more survivable than my scrappers.

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Didn't we crunch some numbers in another thread that showed that in non-top end builds and while on optimal teams, that Brutes won out over Scrappers on damage on a pure scalar basis? There was a rather large sweet spot where Scrappers won, but it was only really in the top end IO build range IIRC.

It's nice to see that there are people agreeing with what I've been saying for more than 2 years now though.

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Yeah, that's actually one of the other threads of evidence I was referring to, lol. I love brutes, but it seems odd that they can out-damage scrappers in a lot of situations, while always out-surviving them.