BurningChick

Geko posted in October saying that he'd go through the list. And _Castle_ appears to be Geko's go-to guy for separating the wheat from the chaff when it comes to power set issues

Anyways, _Castle_, I've dusted off my bubbler a few times since I6 hit. All I really have to say is that one or two of the Final 3 powers of the set has to do something other than keeping mobs out of melee. The value of doing so isn't entirely clear. It's ironic that force bubble is cheap enough to use 24/7, and is one of the only perma ninth tier defender powers, but is the most rarely used. You gotta look at giving us something to do with our primary beyond buffing defense on melee-heavy teams.

Thanks for looking at us!

If you see someone camping a hospital, even if the person's on your side, ask him to leave. If you get a response filled with I33t-speak, broadcast his position to the opposite side. Or turn traitor and help the other side take him down.

Spawn-killing and ganking make folks who are on the fence about PvP split. For good. The overall number of people who do PvP, ever, in CoH is small. Making what might be a gamer's first ever experience of PvP awful is not the way to encourage newbies.

Remember how PvPers started complaining about how dead The Arena was within a week of I4's release? Don't let that happen to the PvP zones. Try to take newbies under your wings, and try to hold accountable the nimrods hell-bent on ruining PvP for everyone.

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Can I get an amen up in here?

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No way! But you can get more of my salvage!

I would assume he means "Three times in a row with the _same_ attack."

A propos of nothing much in particular, _Castle_, but have you thought about championing FF defenders as a sideline?

Twilight grasp's animation time doesn't bug me. It's AoE is pretty big and it heals for a lot. It's also a very, VERY powerful debuff. To me, it's a debuff with a healing component.

Just some thoughts about the remaining FF issues.

The devs have never, IIRC, said that all defender powers should work better for defenders than controllers. They have, however, said that defenders should be better buffers and debuffers. Most of the FF set is neither, and so those 5 non-(de)buffing powers are currently working as intended. This is an overall defender / controller balance issue and should not be limited to just bubblers.

The colour of detention field's never going to change as long as the devs insist upon the look 'n' feel of power sets being consistent. I.e., bubbles will always be that hospital-like bluish-green, rad will always be forest green, dark will always look ... ummm ... dark (and BORING, except for FS).

Bubblers are three-trick ponies -- don't forget detention field. Even if it's one of the rarest primary powers in the game.

I'll try to come up with something about how the final three FF powers don't seem to provide much in the way of team defense for the next iteration.

Thanks for the excellent list!

Update: repulsion field had its per mob end cost reduced in the 9.20.05 patch.

Hi,

When a player has, for instance, a defense power or buff that defends against ranged and melee, it covers ALL damage that is either, even if it is untyped, toxic, or psy. Type, in this case, does not matter.

When a player has, for instance, a defense power or buff that defends against, for instance, smashing and lethal damage, it covers ALL psi damage, regardless of its position / axis.

In the former example, AoE damage is the big, gaping hole. In the later, the big gaping whole is, well everything that isn't smashing and lethal.

It's a kludgy system that, frankly, blows chunks. I mean BIG chunks. From January until recently, SR scrappers received minimal benefit from a bubbler unless the defense numbers from the bubbler topped those of the scrapper. The buffs did not stack with the scrapper's secondary. SR's defense is postional, FF's is type, and this tidbit about how defenses stack was mentioned nowhere in-game. That's the equivalent of, for instance, regen and recovery aura not stacking with IH and quick recovery because the regen powers aren't the right type. It's counter-intuitive garbage.

Maneuvers? Same deal. Maneuvers is defense against position. And, guess what? Bubblers have been told for over a year to get maneuvers to provide some self defense. Statesman ran it in his FF build. THAT's how undocumented their defense system is. How were players supposed to know that ... if Statesman himself didn't? He didn't realize maneuvers is pointless in Croatoa. With dispersion bubble up, maneuvers only gave defense against psi, toxic, and untyped. Huge chunks of the game have none of those types of damage. Useful? Maybe situationally. Worth running 24/7 with six slots? Ummmm ...

Oi.

Statesman, please, do something for the defenders. Say something about stealth-nerfing Enervating Field. Give a shout out to the bubblers who've been running maneuvers 24/7 since January ... even though it wasn't doing what we all expected it to. Just ... something.

Circeus points out that ice armour's wonked, and he gets a damn near instant dev response. Defenders point out that something's wonked and we either get nothin' or told we're lying. Just ... something. OK? Please?

Edit: OK, not "lying" but very, very "mistaken". 'Cause, you know, the rumour about EF getting nerfed has come up in most Issues.

For anyone that's interested, here's a post from Starshield that details some of the whackiness that is CoH's defense system and how +defense powers stack (or don't stack).

'Twas a real eye-opener, and the issues raised go WAY beyond Ice Armour.

I don't think the devs really nailed down the defensive sets. They're insanely complicated compared to resistance-based sets.

Before I5 went live, Statesman ran a bubbler through Croatoa on Test using a "defensive" build that had 6-slotted dispersion bubble plus maneuvers and combat jumping. But ... ummm ... pool defense don't stack with dispersion unless they cover something DB doesn't. At the time, that'd be toxic, psy, and untyped. Three damage types that don't show up much in the game, especially in the level-range for Croatoa.

I feel for you guys. But something tells me that the devs are going to have to revisit defense for I6 to fix up the type / axis mess, and to make defense meaningful in PvP. I think it was supposed to be ice's debuffs and FF's knockback 'n' repel that put those sets up on par with their brethren, but it never really seemed to happen.

But here's hoping it will.

This is still an issue with FF versus Sonic Resonance. The same things that debuff defense for melee debuff defense for FF.

That is, I think, one of the first discrepencies pointed out between the two sets; FF suffers from far more debuffs than SR.

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Even though I play other Primaries, I consider myself first and foremost a Stormie. And I'm not worried. I'm seething.

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And, at heart, I always consider myself a bubbler. She was the first toon I played without feeling like I was flailing.

I wonder how this will all play out?

I'm guessing Statesman will make some kind of apologetic post within the next 24 hours ... with a further statement about how he's most happy with defenders as they stand. And yes, he even understands how certain sets are perceived as underperforming. But, rest assured, the devs have their eyes on the situation.

Oh my.

Rads are sharpening pitchforks.

Stormies and DDs are worried.

Bubblers are frustrated.

Oh my.

And I used to think that defenders were the calmest, tamest bunch around here

Accuracy debuffs might have been changed -- some dark defenders are reporting that darkest nightf seems weaker. I'm not sure, that kind of testing is completely, entirely beyond my ability.

Methinks there's something less sinister happening, along the lines of miscommunication.

With sonic, the devs said OK, sonic should be the king of resistance debuffs, so they get two. No one else's debuff should be stronger, so set them all at 30%, the value we have for sonic. Perhaps the devs figured that, since EF was at 37.5 (?), all the other debuffs were ... and didn't bother to check the actual values since, well, there was no need to.

The inexcusable part, however, is that the dev team did not treat the rad community particularly well -- even after you guys offered proof of the change.

Edit -- well, maybe not the kings of it since tar patch still stacks, although it seems less long. I'm not sure, however, since I didn't test the stacking.

Tar patch with my dark defender using dark blast with only an accuracy enhancement:

Stunner Freak +0
33.08
43

Cuirasseur +2
26.46
32.81

Jaeger +1
29.77
37.81

That looks like 30% with numbers scaling down with level difference. Unless my math is borked.

So ... it looks like 30% is what the devs want the baseline to be.

The last couple days have been scrapper time ...

Before that, tankers ...

Before that, blasters ...

Before that, controllers.

It looks like the devs are going AT by AT ... which would mean that, if there's any word on defenders, it'll be next week. Maybe

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IMO the only real problem is that now Buffing is much better than debuffing on large teams because when facing larger mobs buffs will be 100% reliable whereas debuffs will have lots of gaps. Personally having a 50 of both a buff and debuff defender I have come to the conclusion they are at equal efficiency and effectiveness. I see no reason to bring buffers over debuffers.

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Is FF supposed to be a buff set? 5 to 3 mob-affecting powers v. buffs.

And dark has an aura, a rez, and a heal ... or roughly as many buffs as FF.

I'm just sayin'

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it alarms me that this thread had 5 stars and then went down to 3... are people taking it seriously?

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Yeah, probably.

It's the same folks who send Miasma Chick tells saying, "r u heelr"

Hi,

With burn and firey embrace scaled back, could ya'll think about giving knock(back / down) resistance to the primary? I understand that the original tradeoff was defense for offense, but with offense greatly scaled back, it'd be nice to have the tradeoff removed.

You could rework Temperature protection to give immobilisation + knock(back / down) resistance. It'd still cost us a power choice to get the protection, but would make burn completely optional and give us more options for travel.

We defenders really should get a tweak here ... and a boost there ...

Mostly because we:

1.) Have not yet cried doom.
2.) Are way more polite than the folks in the Scrapper and Tanker forums.
2.a) Haven't personally insulted the dev team, issued threats. etc. etc.. The worst I've seen is comments along the lines of, "The devs overestimated the use of knockback and repel in general game play".

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With a good high level Defender, you don't always need a Blaster.

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You have to be getting your damage from somewhere, and not all Defenders can substitute for a Blaster by any means. Maybe I'm weird but I would never pull a Defender onto a team if I were looking for a damage dealer, I'd get a Blaster or Scrapper. Or even a Controller depending on the levels we're talking about.

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Now that is what we're talking about with the perception problem. With tar patch, my dark defender can up total team damage by 30%, and, in long battles, by 60% with stacked tar patches. Do the math: the increase in damage by my 1 defender will be like adding 2 or 3 blasters if you're running an eight person team. And my DDD will be doing some other nutty things.

The only defender that can't increase damage is FF.

Just something to chew on. In large teams, blasters and scrappers are not the kings of damage. Defenders are through their buffs and debufss.

Hi Statesman,

While reading through this thread, keep in mind one of the recurring themes: bubblers and non-bubblers alike are saying that FF needs something, anything, to improve the set. The overall feeling that FF is lacking cuts through a lot of the petty bickering that dogs the comparisons between ATs and power sets. Folks around here might throw a lot of numbers around trying to find which min / max Dark build trumps a certain Rad build (and vice verse), but few people (any?) will come right out and say that FF has as much to offer a team as rad, dark, or kinetics.

The fact that there is so little bickering around FF needing a buff should speak volumes.

Please, Statesman, do something about FF.

The final three powers of the set are all about keeping mobs away, an effect that is of limited use throughout the game.

Repulsion Field: keep mobs away, power centred on self, can cost an insane amount of end if used on mobs that resist the effect (I'm looking at you, swarms!). Does nothing different than kinetics : repel, even though FF is, frankly, all about knockback / repel ... and RF is a seventh tier power while repel is one of the earliest kinetics powers. And it is completely replaceable by force bubble. You have said yourself that higher tier powers should not replace lower tier powers entirely, but force bubble certainly fits the bill here.

Repulsion Bomb. Long animation, low magnitude stun and knockdown. It's supposed to be, as far as I can tell, a panic button to get mobs off a squishie ... but it really only works on minions. And minions are of no consequence to a bubbled teammate. And this power can only be used on a teammate (or, *cough*, pet). It's the worst panic button in the game. By the time the animation is up, I can, in theory, have jumped over to the teammate in distress and fired off force bubble. Again, one power can be entirely replaced by a later power.

Force bubble. Love it or hate it, it's the biggest end-sucking toggle in the game. It uses more end the my fire tanker's armours + blazing aura + burn + tough + combat jumping with only a tiny fraction of the useful benefit. Speaking of tankers, it draws more aggro due its size and effect than any tanker can generate. And the only thing it does is push mobs away. And distance does not equal defense. A repelled mob can still attack while being repelled, and virtually all mobs in the game have some form of ranged attack. And some villain groups, like Ritki, are more dangerous to bubblers at range (psy and sleep) than they are close up (mostly s / l / energy). At best, force bubble is a 30% damage debuff (the rumoured difference between a melee mob's melee damage versus ranged damage). Compared to the other ninth tier controller, defender, and blaster powers, it's laughably bad. And it just doesn't jive with sets that require clumped mobs for debuffs, AoE attacks, or aggro management. And that is almost every single toon in the game except for some single target scrappers and blasters. Of course, single target scrappers and blasters probably aren't that profficient at keeping aggro away from a bubbler (with a fraction of her teammate's defense), so ...

I just don't get it, Statesman. Are the defensive bubbles so good that the rest of the set can range from "awful" to "meh"? What's a bubbler supposed to look forward to after dispersion bubble at 12?

A general suggestion: when the new manual comes out, please have your writers include snippets on how each set is intended to work. Example, it's not explicitly clear in any of the descriptions of kinetics or its powers that it works best for melee -- SB for stone tankers, heal centred on targetted mob, etc.. It's also not explicitly clear that FF is focused on keeping blasters safe (at least, that's the conclusion I get from all the knockback powers).