Bovine_Avenger

Yup, that was me commentating in Mission Architect; just to illustrate what I mean briefly, I'll mention that I was active in the map making community for Warhammer: Dawn Of War for a while. It didn't come to me easily I'll admit, but eventually one of my maps was chosen for the online content that came with Dark Crusade in Poland of all places... so it wasn't objectively too bad in the end.

But in the SHORT term it involved running into angry obsessives who spent months insulting me and downgrading one map because he'd not read either the description before downloading it, the readme that warned him of the unique gameplay that popped up on install, or even the map description in game.

And people who complained they didn't know how to install maps; and other people who complained they didn't know if it had worked correctly when I changed the installer to locate the game from it's own registry key, so it would unfailingly self install correctly. Yup, they wrote and complained without even starting the game and checking for themselves.

It involved people writing and asking for the maps to be changed not just in small ways (which might be personal taste) but to be entirely re-written to match their completely unrelated wishes... seriously, I had the odd comment or two asking why a map named after a famous WW1 poem, with trenches and artillery duels and hundreds of disposably heroic Imperial Guard didn't allow you to play as Orks and Chaos and why can't I use the Squiggoth and...?

It involved play after play after play through myself because people wouldn't in general play a beta, wouldn't give feedback if they actually did (at a quick calculation, over 2 years I make the Download To Feedback Comments ratio at about 1.3%; not including repeat commentators, just number of responses), and would often insult you as the only feedback because they'd found a bug you'd put the beta up to test for in the first place.

Balancing against that though was the feedback from fellow map makers; who'd give you intelligent, accurate and useful information. Who would support your vision even if they didn't agree with it. Who would design all sorts of further support networks to help on the hobby in general... one example being the Community Map Packs, so people could quickly and easily get quality content en-masse. I never personally made it into there, although I did help with something with it (I forget what, installer related I think, and testing the maps)...

... And then you finally found people didn't WANT quality as such anyway. You'd release a map which everyone who'd struggled with one would declare quite the work of art, but then found no one outside of that community would play it. I saw one of my maps hosted online by someone else ONCE, and amusingly when I tried to join the game, I actually got kicked out of it! Instead, the most popular map has always been one that came with the game itself; Kasyr Lutien, a map where you start with every resource you could possibly want, in a direct straight line across from your enemy, with no terrain or anything else between you. You literally don't have to do anything other than repeat the same uber-build order to grab imbalance unit X, and then walk straight at an opponent with it. And this, it turns out, was what Joe Public actually wanted instead.

When custom created Quality was occasionally recognized, it was usually because of Word Of Mouth rather than any inherent worth; "Gates of Ultramar" was one such map. Exceptionally well done, but also one of the earliest maps released, and as such benefited from a sense of being the new buzz too... however not even the author's other works would later see anywhere near the uptake, as people just weren't talking about, or bothering with custom maps much later.


And so it is with the Mission Architect. We saw within a few days at most that people reverted to basic selfishness; I critiqued Footsteps because it's the laziest of content... It locates the most common form of interest, and repeats it for 5 missions without variation. It doesn't even bother to script too much for character; some of the Heroes are consistent it's true, but it's hard for a one-joke character to be otherwise. But other's are just vehicles for endless internet meme repetition; why are the oh-so-badass characters the ones who also keep going afk? The story is non-existent, not even attempting to tell it's own jokes, but just outright stating "Go here and listen to them LOLNewb! some more!"

But it's undeniably popular. Presumably the author is proud of this arc, just as I am proud of all the works I've put out there after I've struggled with them. But anywhere there's public engagement, you can only rely upon ONE response, that is your own; If you are going to aim to create art, you have to be prepared to be enormously disappointed in the public. You will need a very, very thick skin indeed.

But I've gone on too long already as it is, so I'll leave it there. However to the OP I would repeat again this; Publish it for yourself. And for those who appreciate your craftmanship and the art it invokes. But you'll need to also learn to be tougher too. Alas, that's the nature of the beast...

Tricky one to confirm this, as some of the safeguards against triggering it work. Basically, I was running the Cure Lost mission (the one that uses a special Wand power), from a normal contact, and half way through I realized that it may be possible to just use the Mission Architect to set up a mission with the required spawn. So I cured 19/20 Lost in The Hollows, and then base portaled back to Atlas City. I went into the MA and quickly made a Test mission with the Lost, and found that I could indeed convert them using the curing Wand, but that I didn't get the Mission Complete on the first one. I did another, and then quit the MA test mission.

This is what I now see;

http://img523.imageshack.us/my.php?i...submission.jpg

And here's where it gets really funky. I swapped to another character to access Ouroboros, so I could use the Officer Wincott arc to test if it worked with Kill X as well as Cure X. But you do get stopped from doing this as both the Ouroboros and MA are classed as taskforces, and you can only have one active at a time. So I swapped back to the character above, and upon logging in the Wand was gone... so the code sees the mission as sort-of-complete. But the contact himself won't accept that it is; so unless you drop the mission now it can never be truly completed.

I'm guessing then that's it possible to break any Kill X mission from the real Paragon by then entering the Virtual Paragon and coming into contact with the same mob inside there. I'll try and confirm it as I level this alt up, and let you know

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Players fit in by virtue of the fact they contribute by putting recipes and infamy into the economy, and trade with each other the same way the farmers do.

What i am saying is, farmers are still a contribution.

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Ahah, now we are getting somewhere. So we've two different economic approaches operating within one over-arching marketplace. Which one I wonder do you say would be the most numerous in terms of individuals within both those groupings, the Casual or the Farmer?

And the next question then is; Which element of the market generates more Purples or Infamy (or Influence, if you aren't so focused on being a villain)...? Thus following on from that, which element then will do more to set the prices upon the market? Because basic human nature question; will people ask for what the average person can afford for their goods... or the highest the market can bear?

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What crosses YOUR mind, is not really relevant. The differences between our claims is mine was based on a viewpoint that it is common knowledge harcore pvpers hold this view, and many players who like to farm hold this view. Your claim was based on your personal viewpoint alone.

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Well that's me convinced you weren't arguing your own, self interested viewpoint instead; Of course, centuries of economic investigation of Inflationary Pressure, and now nearly 12 years of MMO economic experience which seem to have resulted in every new MMO using Soulbound/Non Transferable loot and mechanisms for removing currency permanently from the economy don't count much against what "hardcore pvpers" apparently think I know...

But let me see if I've got your economic model down correctly; On the locked thread you said;

"Infamy farmers may buy purples from people who have successfully farmed recipes, for example."

So your argument is that farmers can buy from farmers. So let's say we have someone who plays in ways which don't generate either influence or recipes at the same rate as which farmers do; let's say someone who plays content for it's own sake, levels up the normal way etc. Where do they fit into your brilliantly inclusive economic model, I wonder?

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(Not targeted at anyone specific)

As far as perception goes I think you can probably turn around a quote Positron said in Pocket D on 5th Anniversary about if you feel a nerf is coming then it probably is.

I say, if you feel that you have abused the MA system enough that you may lose some progress or even your character, then you probably will. If you don't then you're lucky. You knew the farming was wrong when you were doing it, or you wouldn't be worried now, so you really have no recourse for complaint if you get punished.

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This is the core of why the current imbroglio has disappointed me so much; Because it effects so many of us, even though we've not changed our behaviour in any way. Again, I'm talking specifically only about badge farming, not XP etc but these kinds of "farms" have been part of the game since 2004, when the badges were first introduced. One of my happiest moments in game was a late night Illusionist farm on an American server back then, where we all ran a rolling team with one mission so people could join up and finally crack what was one of the then hardest badges to get. It's the very nature of Badging that it be repetitive and grinding and aberrant from the normal nature of the game, but we took pleasure in seeing each new member of the team get to that personal milestone. This is what we've always done. It's how it's always been. Be it trawling for Rikti monkeys or hunting skuls in areas way below our level. It's what content was often set up to give us, it's what kept us in game.

But now, because of a colossal screw up with releasing the MA far too early, you now can't know for sure which badges you are going to actually keep, or are even supposed to be after in the same ways as you've always been. Last night it seems the requirements for some of them were even lowered; I suddenly got credit for 5 badges involved with Mission Arcs (number of plays/average rating)... yet these badges are the ones most likely to be the subject of tackling badging "cartels", which were set up to increase the chances of plays and ratings of course. Which illustrates why I feel as unsettled as I currently do; suddenly nothing in the arena of badging makes any kind of sense... as a consequence I've no real urge to log my main, badgehunting character in until I've seen a clear statement of where the game is going from a particular date; because everything he does is going to remain in flux, a flux which could have drastic consequences for a character I've had since the game went live.

But again, I have to point out that's separate from farming which damages the wider structure of the game, in particular that which dumps influence into the economy. I haven't done that, so it doesn't affect me. But the current mess does. And the longer it persists, the less my heart is in the game, because it's core for my main character is being torn out or undermined.

Sorry, but that's just how I feel.

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That's a herd mentality, it's lame, and always leads to bad outcomes for others. I didn't expect you to weigh in on the pro- side of that particular argument, even if herds (and farms I guess) are rather appropriate to your bovine side

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It is, but this is the nature of all voting; I'm not defending farming in general, I personally hate it as I've seen too many games ruined by market inflation and selfishness... but there's no point opening up anything to voting and then complaining people don't use the mechanism sensibly. It's human nature to be incapable of doing so, be it in politics or popularity or the repetition of "lulzworthy" memes...

So even if you removed every single badge from association with the Mission Architect, you're going to get horrible distortions of the voting pattern, because people are still going to have mixed motivations for voting as they will, and many of them are going to be downright dodgy reasons. The only way you can get Dev Quality canon is if the only flagged missions are ones that they themselves have seen and considered... not Johnny Public talking about what they've seen. It may be elitist, but that's the only solution, even if Johnny Public is still likely to be the mechanism through which they become noticed by the elite anyway (the Dev Choice thread mentions public buzz as a major factor).

But that's not what we were given; so to put it another way, if the herd is going one direction, even if it's a path that leads them over a cliff, it's not necessarily wrong to follow them that way... not if they are going to go that way anyway, there's something over there you can also personally use, but now you can walk across their piled up bodies to get to the other side of the cliff much quicker than otherwise. Badging, or achieving recognition of milestones in Paragon City is the only thing that really means much in the game for me at the moment... I'd be exceptionally foolish if I didn't take the opportunities available, just because the world (including the virtual one) isn't as I'd exactly like it.

But I guess I'm just annoyed because now I don't know if my main character is even going to be legal, because I spent a fair amount of time harming no one else or their game experience, but running missions designed to achieve goals the Devs themselves put in for no one other than badgehunters to aspire to in the first place. Like the Test badges. Come on, how many players really would want 50,000 test kills, when you get no experience or tickets in those missions at all, but just badges? But the missions we set up to put maximum mobs in might now get us warned or even banned...

... as too would the fact that many of us have put a lot of time and effort into our arcs, only to have to see them potentially banned because they've got a tonne of ratings from fellow badgehunters too. It's a complete screw up, which even the most basic of knowledge of human nature should have forewarned about.

And I'm not even going to go into that I did report a tonne of bugs (and help solve them where I could) on Beta too; And Judgement Dave went above and beyond any of us... but none of which so many of us were talking about seem to been tackled regardless. So yeah, I apologize if I'm exceptionally cranky, but this whole issue has proven really rather a strain on a lot of people's patience. I can't even play as I would do normally until it all clears up, in case any of my badge hunting becomes retro-actively removed or even illegal.

*GRUMP*

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I wonder if the mission-rating cartel on Sal's badgehunters channel will be in trouble - any channel mods might want to wrap that up asap. It certainly left a bad taste in my mouth seeing it justified as (and I paraphrase) "well the farmers have already wrecked the rating system, so it doesn't really matter that we're doing this to farm the badges". With those badges gone there'll be no need for it, and with other rating cartels and farming being hit hard as well (hopefully), MA ratings can go back to being about the quality of the story in the arc and how fun the gameplay is, instead of being about badges/farming or popularity contests.

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That's a quote from something I personally said on Badgehunters... and I'll repeat the follow on comments from that you for some reason decided not to quote here for everyone; that is that most of the high rated arcs were either experience farms or, in the case of some of the others, were being voted for based upon popularity of the author (their SGs were voting for them en-masse) or just because it appealed to the lowest common denominator.

And that isn't going to change just because of the "Badging cartel"... you'll still get hundreds of badly written "LOLNoobs" humour rise to the top, just as it has in every single MMO that creates custom content. It was ImaNewbie in the late 1990s for Ultima Online, it's the various jokes about infinite backpacks and AFK and female armor in the WoW comic contest submissions, and you'll get hundreds of Footsteps Initiatives highly ranked in City of Heroes.

You want to see quality and good gameplay? Well, the world doesn't work like that. It produces huge amounts of popular dross and the odd hidden diamond. I had high hopes at first of the MA too, but I'm not so naive that I can't see what's right in front of my eyes when the true shape is finally revealed... and the bad taste isn't going to go away as long as ratings of any kind are in the MA. You've now seen what the CoH community is like; they aren't going to vote for the things you value no matter how many times you re-do the vote. You and you're arcs (and me and mine for that matter) aren't going to get into the top of any honest vote. Quality never does.

The Dev's themselves probably aren't going to do much better for that matter; "The Butterfly Effect"...? A 3 mission introduction to another arc, which can be played through in 5 minutes, despite the unbalanced AV at the end? And has internal dialogue contradictions even in that tiny content (the first glowie indicates Dr Aeon uses a 64 bit encryption, the final glowie indicates he uses "123456" as his password)...?

No, you're going to be very, very disappointed in what's coming down the pike I think... Now me, I was happy to just take something no one had any use for and use it for my own personal, and non-harmful to others hobbies of badging... even as I was disgusted how true abusive farming was wrecking the rest of the game.

Still, it has led to a roleplaying experience today, preaching the gospel of the Prophet Positron from Town Hall, and getting a few people to start discussing lawsuits... Alas I didn't find many recruits to my new cartel though!

EvE Online...? Yahtzi summed EvE up pretty well here;

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/vide...208-Eve-Online

But here's my experience of the game;

* Play Elite, Frontier, and Frontier First Encounters to death.

* See EvE Online, notice it steals not just the basic design but even the type face Frontier uses. Think "Hmmm, maybe I should give this a go!"

* Take out the 14 day trial, but discover that PvE is fantastically poor; there's literally only 4-5 possible missions, most of which even then involve shooting a blob so far off you never see what it looks like. And you can't land on any of the planets, unlike Frontier. Discover that the training times for skill progression gets incredibly long (even though it works whilst offline) and you are expected to feed the market (which solo means endless mining) or PvP in the months of wait between being able to upgrade ships. Decide not to renew...


* Years later, after particularly traumatic MMO related real life issues, find I've not got any social games to play. Remember EvE is supposedly much better in groups, and decide to take out a 1 month sub. Sign up to EvE University, an in game training corporation. Yes, you read that right, there's an entire Corp dedicated to helping newbies understand all the ridiculous techno-babble...

* EvE Uni has war declared against it a week or so into my renewal. I decide to try and get as involved as I can. This turns out to mean sitting for LITERALLY 8 hours a day orbiting on a gate or outside a station, waiting for someone to decide they want to tackle the insane odds outside (surprisingly, no one does) whilst drunken people who are in the leading-clique of the Corp ramble on about their pointless lives and mean opinions, and give orders that make little strategical sense. Any attempt to debate those tactics outside of the ruling circles is quickly slapped down, either by an appeal to popularity or tradition.

* In about 2 weeks of "war", I'd logged in nearly 70 hours of orbiting stations, and I'd seen maybe 5 outright fights; One of which involved nearly 200 lowbie ships (including my own) just go POP to smart bombs of various kinds upon entering a gate, one which involved chasing a small marauding band who just fled into a station before they could be killed, and one which actually led to combat to the death, and I just orbited around the targets using Tackling gear (preventing them fleeing)... until I got targeted and also popped.

* Decide the idea of "community" and "excitement" in EvE really isn't my cup of tea at all; quit EvE Uni, ship all my surviving ships and resources back out to the starting systems, and occasionally mine whilst having an evening-shave until my account lapses, as at least the lasers and dust cloud-scapes are pretty. And never go back again.

Regarding MMOs that are good; well it's hard to say, as I've emotionally burnt out on many of them.

Ultima Online was fantastic, despite the complaints of those who wanted it to stay (and still demand to this day that it return to being) a Medieval EvE. And it had the same sense of innovation as CoH does, introducing so many great ideas like true player housing, which later on became fully customizable... but it's suffering the same problems as CoH now, mainly a complete lack of unified design ethos, and it's well over a decade old, so even with it's positives it literally creaks at the seams to play these days, even with a new engine upgrade. Perhaps worth a try, but you'll be joining it in it's twilight years now.

World of Warcraft is undeniably addictive, but the end game is hardcore raiding; I watched a group of virtual and real life friends slowly morph into raiding automatons; change from light hearted and sociable funsters into patronizing loot obsessed selfish monsters... so I find it very, very hard to recommend it. I've also heard that the lower level content has been massively increased in XP rewards to power everyone through it, so even with a new and innocent heart, I'm not sure if the WoW I experienced is still there any more. It's enormously popular for a reason, but I don't know if I can myself give you one to try it... take out a trial account and decide for yourself.

Warhammer Online I've thought about, but only the l33t Bo|\|3 |)o0|)z seem to be raving about it, which is an instant red flag to me. I love the setting and the concept, but I've not heard anything that attracts the independent player in me... PvP can be fun, but I like to be able to have other ways of expressing myself in game too.

Anyway, these comments are getting rambling and not very useful. So I shall stop them there. Long story short though; I don't think you are wrong about EvE, but I don't know what else to honestly suggest... I suspect when I close my CoH account again, that'll be it for MMOs for myself too.

The argument against Farming is really rather simple; even when it's pure XP farming, it almost always increases the income generated over normal time too. And when you've a game where players bid against each other to achieve goods, the goods will tend to go to the highest bidder, and thus to the ones who are setting the currency-gaining curve. Whilst no one HAS to pay a higher price, people will almost always charge what the market can bear, so eventually everyone will adapt to paying more.

Thus farming directly impacts everyone, because either their play style is forced ever closer towards a farming style, as they simply can't afford to possess certain items without the same income growth rate... or they learn to do without. The same does not hold true in the other direction; choosing to play through all of the available content has absolutely no bearing on anyone except those who experience it; nor following it make unavailable the same content to other people.

Now it's true that not all farming is equally bad; Badge farming for instance often takes money out of the system, rather than putting it in; Think invention recipe badges. And Prestige farming spends it on the Superbase, which again links it back to individual experience and takes the gains made back out of the public realm. In other games, I can think of farming which is done for purely role-playing reasons (Taming specific creatures in Ultima Online, grinding pointlessly low mobs for boxed critter drops in WoW) that carry no weight at all unless you already share the assumptions behind the act...

But in general, in my experience, the dedicated XP/Influence farmers are usually outright embracing a selfish approach to the game; and as long as THEIR character gets up there quickly, they don't bother or even care to think what it does to anyone else's ability to enjoy the game. In CoH (and WoW and UO in my experience) often you'll find the worst examples join your teams without even reading what you've advertised it as, demand you change the planned tasks to maximize personal growth for them, and then eventually leave when you won't. You can see it even in RTS games for that matter; you've just recruited 7 of 8 players into a game which says "2v2v2v2 Random Teams" with normal settings, and someone comes in, spends 10 minutes refusing to tick in, and repeating "Quickstart, fixed teams, no rush kk?" because that'll maximize his chances of getting the super-weapons, of "pwning" someone, and not getting beaten by someone who can play better... whilst everyone gets annoyed at the delay, or even leaves if the host gives in to the badgering because that's not what they signed up for.

Now in CoH in the early days, when we didn't have transferable loot, I didn't really care too much about farming; I'd quickly kick the idiots who joined my teams, but beyond that you can enjoy the game as you wish. Now however prices for salvage have gone through the roof... I can avoid that, as I know how to use the Architect tickets to get them instead... but so too have risen prices on everything; and I'm finding that, running missions for badges, or testing my own arcs mean that I simply can't afford to buy most recipes now either, as I'm not earning enough money doing the time spent on either of those. And that's ruining my ability to progress; certainly having any more than the one purple that dropped to me on my character is probably going to be impossible now as prices for them escalate way beyond my tolerance of farming will let me go; I'm bored witless even trying to get the second Hall of Fame badge... 25 plays through Footsteps Initiative will kill me, let alone 250. But it's either that or, because of the distorted market, grind one of the farming missions on MA; there's no other practical route to get any progress any more.

ADDENDUM: After experimenting with the files, I think I found another cause of mission bloat; by locking the creature files etc from being written too, you can prevent the nsbp code returning (instead of a space), which seems to inflate your arc in between the initial save and uploading.

As a consequence, and using the free program tool "WinMerge" to track differences between the collected edits, and a resaved-as-local version of the published, I've been able to edit my published arc reasonably quickly; I've also removed one ambush from the second mission, to get down to 100% size (even with the non-inflationary moo moos) which should make it that wee bit easier on the second mission.

I've also included a special new joke just for the Colonel... Enjoy! Feedback always still welcome though!

Oh, and in between testing and writing, I see Colonel has had some unfortunate news; hope things sort themselves out satisfactorily for you old chap...

EDITED AGAIN: I also forgot to mention, the boring Crey Tanks are because that's the only Crey which spawns at 50, and I had to take out the limiting battle for that map for space (Again with the space!); when Issue 15 brings the ability to chose your own levels, I'll line it back up with the first 2 and allow more Crey to appear... but as it's currently largely a fast glowie hunt I chose to sacrifice the spawn variety on that one for now. But still... good luck with real life!

Addendum; I've been experimenting today, and you can manually edit all the supporting files (CustomCritter etc) to remove   and then you can right click them, select Read Only, and the mission editor can still take the associated creature bios in successfully, but it CANT write   back into them. Thus keeping your arc size down considerably when published/edited; I've just seen a .20% arc saving because of one custom mob that kept inserting   back in every time it was used...

Thanks for the review Colonel; A couple of points, and let's start with the most important one first; COWS! It's not ice, it's very, very cold milk :P I'd hoped each description on the usage of cows would give it away ("frozen moo juice sluice" "impenetrable beef sheath" etc)... however some characters apparently have intense difficulty with the -recharge, as you mentioned, so I've edited them locally to have sonic powers on the primary for both the freezing Friesland and buffing buffalo instead... I'm not sure yet if the change to timed damage makes them too strong or not, as being local I can only run it solo, but it also gives them the advantage of trying to close into melee more often, which apparently will aid the odd person who might find them getting stuck on the scenery (I had one report of one spawning in the roof).

Regarding the Eden map, I'm surprised people find it so large, but then I've ran it so many times I know it by heart now; It's really just two small paths north (one on the cliffs, one in the valley)... but this is the most common complaint, so I've added a captured animation (Plant Cage) to Jamaica also for when I can get changes to stick; If anyone knows of another map which would suit the Devouring Earth that wouldn't be troublesome, please do say and I'll see about replacing it entirely.

Issue 15 should bring level forcing, which should allow me to finally edit and means I can drop the battles, which are keeping the DE spawning correctly; but if it isn't likely to be here soon, I'm thinking of removing the one patrol on the first map, and two more elsewhere to get below what it thinks is 100%... it would be a shame to lose that piece of dialogue though, it's the one joke everyone seems to comment on.

Farms eh? Regardless of what I may or may not believe, it's a cow pun, so in it goes!

Second mission and scientist death? It's the second most common problem people have; I try and warn people twice they don't have to take it all at once in the introductions; dump them at the door and you can't fail if they subsequently die... by the time you have two or three you can mow through the ambushes. The only problem is, I didn't get any feedback until far too late about large teams or extreme difficulty, so some of the early ambushes (there are no patrols on this map due to that inflated size, there are 3 ambushes tied to one of the 5 NPCs each, they spawn Middle but the map is random so they could be close or far) can be too large for people to tag them all before they see the scientists. This is compounded by sometimes two scientists appearing very close together; if they are both 1 of the 3, you'll get 2 ambushes arriving very close together as well. As a consequence they've been moved from Minion to Lt. strength, and I've scaled down each ambush from Hard to Medium. Hopefully that should ensure survival long enough to prevent people feeling they've failed because of unfairness, rather than lack of skill. I've also moved Nurse Blonde D'Aquitane forward (from being the final rescue) so she can use her healing to aid those who may not be able to heal the scientists themselves). Porter West was originally able to fight, but he's a Generic Fat Civilian now because it saved 4% or so arc size

I had expected the third boss to die fast, hence why I set him to flee, but I'd not considered this makes the mission failable... I shall change it so he doesn't. Regarding the book shelves, hard to know what model to use there, as none of them really fit for the cargo ship style at all; so the needs of humour triumphed instead. However, I'm amazed at how few people spot WHY it's a cargo ship, over used as it already is. Little spoiler then, that entire mission is a subtle nod towards another famous film, whose poster was not quite "In Paragon, No One Should Fear Their Cream", but was also set aboard a commercial towing vessel...

The second missions' title was of course a nod towards Dr Strangelove, although there's nothing strange about loving cows... There's also some pretty blatant adaptation of a certain much loved TV show associated with one of the scientists; You'll be please to know that I've been able to cram the line "You're a true cattle-star, $name" in to go with him now too! And the fourth matches the plot of Apocalypse Now itself of course, but I'd ran out of space for more custom characters; I had to rely upon general pop knowledge to carry some of the arc then, hence the Fifth Column standing in for both the French Colonials in the Redux film (because they had the most foriegn names I could find) and the Montagnard tribe (Montbeliard in game) who follow Cowtz. I mean Kurtz, sorry! The rambling monologues, suitably beefed up, are largely from the film, so I can't take total credit for them, indeed it's said Marlon Brando improvised "The Horror" speech there on the set, ignoring the lines he'd actually been given... but it's a true piece of genius, one of the best descriptions of mental breakdown and trauma I've ever heard. I just wish it would let me force him to spawn on the temple, as it does in game for Bosses, for that true Apocalyptic feeling... I'd have loved to explain more, but again, that damnable space issue...

The final mission, eh? The EB/AV is actually Fire/Fire, but the Buffalo can give her ice resistance if it spots you coming first; Alas I can't do much against the ability of mobs to see through walls, but hopefully the changed spawn will allow her to not be quite so daunting at times. Also, minature panda cows are real; you can imagine how happy I was to discover this, AND that there's a panda shoulder model in game!

Overall, very fair review, thanks Col! And to everyone who provided feedback; some of you caught the one genuine typo I'd missed (labratory instead of laboratory in a few spots) and the power feedback was especially useful (I don't personally mind long strategic fights, but they didn't work with some powersets I wasn't using)... I just wish somebody hadn't already ripped off both the name and the theme of my arc, and ratings weren't tied to the arc and not the badge, so I could republish. I don't really care too much about the ID # itself, but it would be gutting to have done all that research only to find everyone thinks I copied someone else with it because my arc is now published long, long after he released "his". Bah!

(P.S.; the edited version now has about 10 MORE cow puns, including 5 in the second mission failure dialogue you all see so much... THEY CAN'T STOP ME AHAHAHAHAAAA)

Guys, I CAN'T hit republish... This is how it's currently working;

Arc Size as published now = 101.5% (down from the 107.5% it was when I first transferred it over to Live from Beta. It was 100% there, I had to replace a custom mob with a standard civilian and remove a patrol to get down to being able to publish on Live)

I open edit, remove the two remaining patrols from one of the maps; Arc Size then = 100.4%. Hit Republish.

Log out, then come back in 5 minutes (to ensure my window updates), open arc; Arc size now back to 101.5%, and the changes have been reverted.

If I copy the version from Published (save as Local) it can immediately be Republished and a second valid copy created on the server... except that now can't be edited either. And it of course will have no ratings and higher Arc ID.

At present the edited local arc has no clues, and only the essential spawns and map set ups/dialogue left... but even if I then slice it further, to try and get it below 100%, I've still got to manually copy across the 30 or 40 textual changes since Published, because I've been unable to change them as reported by play-testers because I can't apply them to the Published version either.

But that's just my dilemma... even were it not to exist, it would STILL make more sense to be able to merge changes from a local copy in again than have to constantly recreate the Published version; after all, what if you want to seriously overhaul the custom mobs and ambushes associated with rescues, but don't want to suddenly get down-ranked into oblivion by people playing it on live and then getting walloped because all together it creates a horrible situation?

Just to repeat; "(the changes don't stick over 100%)"... I can't edit it as it currently is; I've tried many times, and each change, unless it takes it under 100% fails. And the local, which even with intense pruning has still inflated to 100.34% can be published but once up also won't be able to be edited either.

There's a tonne of changes made too after a few weeks of feedback, so the only way I can currently do it is find something else I can cut (there's already no clues included) to get under 100%, and then go line by line by line and manually insert every change I've made, and then Republish. Which is frustrating, whether it's bugged or not; it's wise to save to local in case of net-disconnect whilst editing, but there's no easy way to put your changes back...

Simple request for the coming issue; it's a considerable pain to be working locally on Mission Arcs, and then have to manually insert the changes into the published version, as republishing loses all your ratings, and the ID number. This is especially annoying for me because some one has copied my Arc title and the rough setting (including making their own custom cow mobs) so if I republish, it'll look like he had the idea first.

I also can't easily apply the changes from local as my arc is one of the bugged ones from Beta, and although published, is over 100% so it can't be edited (the changes don't stick over 100%)... being able to just replace it with the local version (which thanks to the expected level range settings will be back under 100% as I can take the forcing battles out) would be a godsend.

So... Merge in local changes to publish arcs, please?

No, I'm actually pointing out the difference, and how the description given in the original post is mixing the two up by insisting that the player character must always be central to the reactions of the NPCs around them, and the plot they are engaged within; in other words, it's always the "main hero (celebrity)" approach. The High Fantasy interpretation. But why should they be? It's a very narrow definition of what it means to to tell a heroic tale... I'll just quote from Scott of the Antarctic, once he realized he had not only come second to Amundson, but that he was going to die there in the snow, to illustrate another potential narrative approach;

"We took risks, we knew we took them; things have come out against us, and therefore we have no cause for complaint, but bow to the will of Providence, determined still to do our best to the last [...] Had we lived, I should have had a tale to tell of the hardihood, endurance, and courage of my companions which would have stirred the heart of every Englishman. These rough notes and our dead bodies must tell the tale, but surely, surely, a great rich country like ours will see that those who are dependent on us are properly provided for."

Compare that to the line "Your entire story arc should be centered around the him". But why should it be?

I suspect I know why it's widely accepted it should be; it's a game, and what people want from a game is Entertainment... And yes, I agree it's not precisely "Entertaining" to watch people die in the snow, or watch Batman being tortured by the Joker say. But what makes both Batman and Scott heroic in the wider sense is something more than acting as a surrogate for our own wish fulfilment; but if we follow the advice of the original post to the letter, we'll never, ever be able express what that IS through the mission editor. You can't write such stuff as stirs the heart unless you know what can send it into the depths too; Sometimes, you have to come second... but the suggested approach means we'll always, always be first in Paragon City. And I don't feel that's truly heroic; a true hero accepts that sometimes, the story tells him, that sometimes he's subordinate to something much, much greater than he is. And yes, that means even if it IS an obvious author-insertion that is the mechanism through which the larger issues express themselves.

Which really shouldn't be that hard to accept; you already accept it within the Paragon City universe in general. Tomorrow you'll all be part of an Anniversary event you will have absolutely a minimum of influence upon, but you'll have great fun sharing with others regardless; so I just don't see why people are so terrified of getting a bit of cheek from an NPC; why the NPC always has to be wrong if they are cheeky to you because damn it, feeling small in the Mission Architect is unbearable...?

Well I've some bad news for you Leif... you AREN'T the main hero. That's Statesman here. You are in effect already playing a minor role in Paragon City to any of the more famous heroes, indeed even perhaps to the contacts that send you out on missions, and who will always remain in one sense your superior... you are, at best, only the hero of your own personal story. What matters is that you are persuaded to believe that your part in these greater struggles matters too... you may save the world indeed, even though the game world never really changes, but the residents notice that you gave your all in the meantime.

So; you can have wave after wave of ambushes in the MA, to simulate part of a war against the Rikti for instance. Think Tabula Rasa in Paragon City. Are you the general of said war? Do you set the peace conditions? No, you don't... unless the author is being really footloose with the fluff. But that doesn't matter that here, now, in this particular warehouse you aren't fighting an important battle. And that CAN work, if written well. You don't NEED to be a huge world conquering hero; heroism doesn't just come on the top end of the scale... because if it did, MMOs just wouldn't work. You want single player games for that.

Hmm, so far I've managed to successfully remove Rikti by rebuilding the custom Lost group a second time; I've no idea why it didn't stick the first time, but even on the highest difficulty, I'm not seeing any appear now, fortunately. Curious!

Hey all,

I'm trying to create a mission where you fight the Lost, but in between the objectives it keeps spawning Rikti mobs... I've tried to reduce the level to 29 (apparently they are replaced with Rikti at 30 and above) by forcing them down with selected Security Guards between 5 and 29 but I'm still getting the Rikti as well as Lost. I've also tried to create an alternative Lost custom group of only those lower than 29, but they still turn up, which leads me to suspect either the Lost in MA are reporting incorrect level ranges (see Judgement Dave's comments about the Devouring Earth elsewhere) or just that the Lost are permanently linked to Rikti in the MA.

The map, if anyone wants to test this, is the 22nd National Bank map...

Well Dr_Octagonopus, I'd suggest that's more a limitation of imagination and implementation; to give you an example of what I'm thinking of, whilst CoH is indeed interactive, does it really matter where that interaction occurs? For instance, wouldn't a single participant in (say) the battle for Minas Tirith have to stay just as focused during the day whether he's a footslogger or Gandalf? What differs is the story they tell afterwards about their own experiences, not their billing in the narative; and a good story teller could put you in either role and make it satisfying... so as long as he tells it well, and gives you enough to do, does it really matter if your actions are central or not?

Agree with most of it, but I seriously disagree with the part about "The Most Important Character". If people enjoyed only one form of entertainment, it would be accurate, but as they clearly enjoy many different forms where their character not only isn't central but isn't even present (Movies, watching sports) the truly important thing is to get people to engage in the plot... Give them a fantastic story and they should find it enjoyable even if they've got a secondary role in it. Just don't make them clearly the basis for someone ELSE'S plot; that is, don't leave them as the sidekick for a story that tells everyone how awesome the author's own hero is...

As I mentioned in MA Chat the other day, it's not bad, but it's an appeal to the lowest common denominator; as long as I've been playing MMOs (since 2001) there's been LOLNOOBS humor, which is always admired way out of proportion to it's actual writing talent. In Ultima Online it was ImaNewbie, today it's Scott Kurtz' Ding, or hundreds of other WoW equivalents...

The problem HoF might be having at the moment is the instant something gets the grade, it's noticed by a much wider audience; so even if there's not gank-voting (and I believe there is) it also has to compete with the fact that not everyone who plays it is going to think it's that good either, so unless you get a fairly strong percentage who vote 5 compared to everyone else's mixed motivation voting, it's going to tend to disappear pretty quickly anyway.

I managed to get 5 plays through last night before I went to bed, but whether I can get the complete badge set...? Maybe if more than one makes it up at once we'll see them last longer. But who knows?

Submitted for review;

"Apocalypse Cow" by @Bovine-Avenger
Arc ID: 27552
Length: Very Long
Morality: Neutral
Missions: 5
Enemy Group: Devouring Earth, Custom

" An udder arc of madness and moohem, a truly rustic ruminant revelation over 5 missions, cowntaining every possible cowbination of events; an abondance of unnecessary alliteration and more milking of puns than you have ever herd before! Straight up, no bull, you'll find yourself shaking by the end!"
Level Range: 20-54

Whilst I personally agree it didn't deserve a 5 star ranking Shazan, the only way you can claim it deserves a 1 is if you try to make the argument that you are balancing out the average; because an honest vote, considering all the effort that went into writing, spell checking, and testing it wouldn't be a 1 either; it may not be to taste, but saying it's as bad as some of the efforts out there... So which is easier to believe; it's an honest attempt to fairly review it, and at a 1 star rating too... or there's jiggery pokery going on of some kind?

Hmmm... if the HoF tag is awarded only upon rankings is that really a bug? But if you lose the badge credit on your character as well, then that's unforgivable and should be fixed. At least it explains where the claimed HoF arcs keep disappearing to though, and it wouldn't surprise me if every arc that makes it was being downgraded again through spite...