Bill Z Bubba
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Quote:The point is that the solo contribution is so negligible in comparison to the teaming route that it shouldn't even be considered. Your opinion is that the itrials should be the bread and butter. Ok, fine.Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
That's a lot of polarized points based on comparing hard core grinders against what amounts to soloers or VERY casual players. Why can't you play a few iTrials a week while generating shards solo and converting Notices to threads? That's certainly on the casual side and it wouldn't take very long to augment a character with incarnate abilities. Solo content contributing? Check. Task Forces contributing? Check. And of course iTrials are the bread and butter-- as they should be.
My opinion is that the current comparison amounts to the itrials being the bread and butter while the solo contribution amounts to fraction of a crumb and that this is unacceptable. -
ClawsandEffect,
If I'm going to forced to farm for the l33t gear, I want to do it without having to be teamed up. Farming the ITF over and over, to me, is no different at all than farming Lambda over and over.
I know that farming is necessary in a game like this if you want the good stuff. That's not a problem for me. Being forced to farm with others for that stuff... that's the problem. -
Quote:So you keep stating while failing to back up the statement. I have already explained in detail, repeatedly, WHY I chose to play in a way that I don't wish to. You chose to ignore it and instead continue to attack me rather than the facts because as usual, you have nothing else to work with.
Do you even know what a straw man is?
YOUR "TEST" IS MEANINGLESS. That doesn't mean that the solo path is or isn't viable. That doesn't means I do or don't like Incarnate trials. That doesn't mean that I do or don't want a solo path. That doesn't mean that soloers are or are not left out in the cold. That doesn't mean that the devs do or don't hate you.
All it means--the ONLY thing we can infer from this "test"--is that you have no clue how to conduct a meaningful test. Any thought or sentence formed from the premise that "[Based on this,] you..." immediately becomes invalid. Not true, not false. Invalid. Undefined. Meaningless. Divided by zero.
The fact is that there is no viable solo incarnate path. You know this to be true. You don't care. We get that.
Are your bloomers on too tight? -
Quote:No, Beef_Cake, YOU are factoring your TF runs in when you shouldn't have. You stated that you had ALL those shards and shard components stored up which let you dump them all into threads and craft what you wanted in a time frame you found reasonable. You didn't get them all by soloing, however, as you just stated. That was my point. The truly solo path is NOT viable in any way by any definition that isn't completely irrational.Originally Posted by Beef_Cake
We'll now you are referring to a TF which is not meant for solo play. But yet you factor it into your solo path? TFs are meant for team play, they are not meant to be soloed, therefore you are doing something out of the solo path correct?
But I can't answer how many shards I've gotten from TF content. I wouldn't say too many, I only run speed TFs just to get my notice and that's all. I never run TF for shard drops like most do. Running for shard drops on a 8 man team is counter productive imo.
No, but 4-6 threads I would agree with, but a random component at the end of the arc? Yes, if you can only get a common or uncommon, removing rares and very rares from that random drop I would agree with.
The time it would take to complete 4 mission to get the rewards you are asking for would totally be faster and easier than running a trial and it would defeat the purpose of a trial to being with.
Nor do I agree that these solo arcs should be locked out of rare and very rare components. The arcs CAN be made difficult and time consuming. They CAN be made to take, on average, an hour versus the trial's 30 minutes. The devs have shown in the past they they can adjust arcs and rewards, see Ouro arcs, and can do it again here. -
Quote:Did I cry doom in this thread, Tony? Nope. Did I ask for the removal of the incarnate trials? Nope. In other threads I actually expressed my happiness that the devs added content that many have asked for over the years. I expressed my happiness at their happiness that they finally got it.
Of course, during all of my criticisms, I never cried DOOOOM!!! (at least, not that I can remember). I never demanded that the devs accommodate my will. I never conducted sham "tests" to support my position. I never threatened to quit the game. I've consistently criticized with the understanding that I'm never going to be 100% happy with the game, and that's okay. 97% is pretty damn amazing. Does make me a suck-up brown noser?
But you felt the need to come in guns blazing to attack me, personally, because of your idiotic belief that everyone should play the game just like you. I'm not expecting an apology since this is completely normal behavior for you.
You're attacking me, not the statements in the OP. You must then agree that the existing solo path is not in any way viable. The problem is that you're perfectly fine with this fact. You don't care about anyone else's playstyles or desires unless they perfectly coincide with yours. There's a term for that, as well. -
Quote:Partly because of the locked 10 shards to 10 threads conversion to once every 20 hours. I know that there are ways to increase my shard drop rate to above 3/hour, but as it stands to convert any more than 10 a day means that half of my "work" gets tossed into the trash.Originally Posted by mousedroid
Honest question - other than saving the inf associated with converting shards to threads, how would this help anything? Unless the drop rate for threads is a lot higher than the drop rate for shards, it's going to take just as long for a solo player to get enough. And the inf associated with the conversion is probably a secondary consideration given how many mobs you'd need to kill to get all those shards/threads.
Were I able to buy a single common thread component a day with vanguard merits, instead of a shard component, I'd be able to increase my thread rate there as well. -
Quote:No, Tony. To most people, solo means solo. It's a word. It has a definition. Even for those that only solo MOST of the time, like me, the OP is a prime example of what kind of timeframe they're looking at even if they DO run the occasional tf/sf. The AVERAGE player, since that's your favorite sticking point, is NOT running TF/SFs regularly like Beef_Cake. They AREN'T farming the hell out of the itrials. Hell, they aren't even running enough to get as incarnate tricked out as I did my first two weeks back.
No, because "solo path" to Bill and a few others constantly griping here doesn't mean the same thing that it does to most people. To most people, "playing solo" is something you do sometimes. Maybe it's even something you do most times. It's not something you do all the time, to the exclusion of all else, going to great pains avoiding teaming up with anyone, EVER. -
Quote:How nice of you to admit that you throw out fallacious arguments all the time.
Yeah, the purple recipe comments ARE a strawman, one I saw tossed about frequently back when they were introduced in Issue 10.
So we could keep starting threads with strawmen and throw them back and forth at each other, or we could get smarter and realize the simple truth: This is a non-issue. The vast majority of people are getting stuff they want and a select few are always going to be unhappy. The people who are happy are going to play the game without much stress or drama, the people who are perpetually miserable are going to come here and gripe.
I'm part of your "vast majority" that got what I wanted. I did so knowing that there was no other viable path to get those items. The lack of a viable solo path is the issue here. You'll, of course, keep ignoring it because you're incapable of understanding that not everyone should be forced to live/play/act in accordance with your limited views. -
Quote:BC, of all the hoarded shards you had, how many came from running the TFs that grant shard components? That's not soloing and that's not the topic of this thread.
And honestly how much faster do you expect the solo path to be? Do you expect to run a mission, and get 4-6 astrals and a component at the end of each mission? Or 1 astral and 1 thread at the end of each mission? Do you honestly think a solo path will be as quick as running the trials? What would the speed of the solo path have to be to make you satisfied?
A good solo arc of, say, 4 missions should drop 4-6 threads and a random component at arc completion, yes. -
Quote:This is what I've been asking for all along. Hell, lock 'em at level 54.Originally Posted by Vice_Virtuoso
Assuming solo Incarnate content gets added sometime in the near future, I'm hoping it's actually difficult and challenging.
Honestly, AVs which spawn as AVs regardless of difficulty settings, on a mission that locks you into soloing (like the Praetorian morality missions), doesn't seem too far out of line, considering just how powerful Incarnate abilities can make any character. -
Quote:And you need them on teams? Hell, we don't even need them to do the itrials, now do we? Soloing the ITF is a damn site more difficult that plowing through the Lambda with even a half league of 8.
Yes, Tier 4's are expensive as all hell to get, but if you're solo, you don't need tier 4. Hell if you're solo you don't need tier 1. -
Glad to see the responses in here.
I would be interested in hearing the argument for keeping shards as is. What problems would arise right now if the devs decided to move forward with a straight swap out?
All shards are converted to threads.
All common shard components are converted to a random common thread component.
All uncommon shard components are converted to a random uncommon thread component.
Repeat for rare and very rare.
Replace every instance of shards/shard components in the drop tables with threads/thread components.
Remove all references to shards in Incarnate Power creation.
What problems would this cause? -
So we've got lots of forum posters going on and on about how the current solo path is good enough for incarnate progress. But do they really know what they're saying? I think not.
I decided to test it out. Get some real numbers, throw them against the wall, see what comes out.
Shards: Start time 9pm - 8 shards in inventory
PI for scanner missions. +0/x8 w/ bosses
Mission: Shards dropped
1: 0
2: 3
3: 1
4: 1
5: 0
6: 1
7: 0
Farmed RWZ for Rikti bosses for 20 minutes: 0
Total time: 2 hours.
Shard drop rate: 3 per hour.
THREE PER HOUR. Let's keep that in mind.
To craft the tier 1 Carnival Lore power, I need 3 common components. These cost 20 threads each.
Once a night, I can spend 1million inf and get 10 threads for 10 shards.
We'll say I get lucky and it only takes me 3 hours to get those 10 shards.
3 hours a night running PI scanner missions. 18 hours over 6 days and 6 million inf to craft the tier 1 lore power.
Moving on to tier 2. Takes the tier 1, 2 commons, 1 uncommon. 20+20+60 threads. There's another 10 nights at 3 hours a night farming. 30 hours + 10 million inf.
Tier 3: The tier 2, 2 commons, 1 rare. Oh boy... here we go. To make that rare, I need 100 threads and 4 uncommons. That's 340 threads. That's 34 nights, 102 hours, and 34 million inf.
Ok, we've got a single tier 3.
Total hours: 150 hours
Days at 3 hours per night: 50. 7 weeks.
Number of shards: 500
Inf spent: 50 million
It took me 8-10 days of running trials to get 2 T4s and 5 T3s and 1 T2.
How much time solo will it take to get that single T4 carnival lore?
We're up to 100 days and 100 million inf just for the two T3s.
I'll also need 2 commons and a very rare. That VR takes 16 uncommons or 960 threads. Plus the 40 for the 2 commons. 1000 threads.
200 days total. 600 game hours. For a single T4. Versus the 8-10 days it took me to get everything I just listed.
And some of you find this fair? And equitable?
I can solo an FF/ENE Defender to 50 doing story arcs on the base difficulty in vastly less time than 600 hours.
No, we should NOT have to wait until sometime in 2013 for a fix to this idiocy.
Remove shards from the game. Replace them with threads. Please. -
Some solo startable incarnate content please.
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I'm with those that are playing loose with the storyline. I see the Well as nothing more than the Power Cosmic or Collective Consciousness or Eternity or whatever you feel fits.
In BZB's case, he's doing nothing but what he's done since level 1. Pulling in and trapping more power from the souls in Hell within his mortal shell.
More recharge from spiritual? Check.
Fire damage from reactive? Fits Hell easily.
Void? Looks Hellish.
Warbots? Ummm, no, that doesn't work. I'll have to change pets or ignore that RP aspect.
Big aoe heal? Sure. Nothing wrong with keeping myself up and killin. -
Once again I see a post where someone intentionally ignores the contingent of players running the trials because that IS the only (timely) way to get the stuff they really like and not because they're enjoying what they have to do in order to get it.
Those players aren't going to be griping during the trial. They're already resigned to the way things are. They're going to come here to gripe instead. -
Yes. Run paper/scanner missions for shards. Convert shards to threads.
EDIT: My bad. Thought you were asking for solo ways to get threads. Shards drop if you're 50 and doing content. The drop rate isn't great. -
Quote:Right, because mutation has never done any good for life on this planet. And life has always existed in a time when education, scientific inquiry and intelligence are seen as elitist and bad for the country.Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
Right, because throughout history, only intelligent people have been breeding and that's how our culture has developed. Intelligent people like Newton, Turing, Da Vinci, have always had children.
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Quote:I think that 112 (4*4*7) hours to get T3*5 based on the existing conversion rates is highly optimistic for anyone to do solo. Farming ITFs and being sure to get in the WTF... that might work.Originally Posted by Beef_Cake
Bill, if I had to guess, I'd say about about 3-4 weeks running about 3-4 hours a day. Yes, I know people can't always match other people's game play. But that's what it took me. And comparing that to my other characters I did run through the trials, it was a great deal longer as it normally took me about 3-5 days to get fully slotted abilities running trials. But than again, I did run a lot of trials.
BZB still needs 3 T4s. I think he's already good to go with a pair of T3s on a couple of those. I'll see what I can do and how long it takes me to finish him up with nothing but shards. -
Quote:Cuz benchmarks from games have no relevance to performance in games?Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
What you're seeing at higher resolutions is more a function of the greater memory space. Pick up a pair of 580's with 3GB of memory and the performance picture is a bit different.
Note: In actual games. I honestly don't give a damn what "Benchmark X" tells me. Since I don't play benchmarks. -
Quote:Forced to do what? Solo the ITF? No, I was not forced to attempt it. Forced to run trials in order to get my incarnate slots filled? Yes, if I wanted them done in a timely manner.Originally Posted by Tetsuko_NA
I'm not sure I'd use an example involving a substantial rule workaround, but I get your point.
My larger question is: were you forced to do this, or did you choose to do it?
(Yes, I have asked this sort of question on this topic before - I've heard a number of people saying the feel forced to do the Trials, while to me they have walys felt as voluntary as any other part of the game, so I'm just trying to get differing opinions.)
Thanks for the feedback!
I'm not sure what kind of farming/content BeefCake was running with his dom. I've little doubt that he's far more efficient at it than I am.
I'd be curious to determine exactly how much real time it would take to get even T3*5 using soloable content as it stands right now with my warshade. -
Quote:Content does take time to produce. Fixing bugs or bad design decisions takes less time.Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
billz, here is the thing. are you really, based on your experience here, completely convinced that there will be no solo or small group option to earn them later after actually filling out the trials options a bit more? Is that a common part of the behavior of the developers here? As i see it, right now we are getting trials, which we have not had at all, and a very stitched together solo path that is useless for most players. now, given the realities of how big the team is, and even how long quality content takes to come out even from the largest of the mmo houses out there, does it really strike you that there will never be a other option simply because they dont have one now? I mean, how long did it take for them to allow use to earn shards while exemplared? that was a qol issue the developers listened to, did they not say in the ustream chats that there will likely be a path but its further off? it seems blatantly obvious that a path is coming, but right now there is a mechanic they are adding that is new and they want to fill it out first.
this really just seems like a intensely dramatic reaction by people who have seen this go a few times now. i waited 16 issues for power customization, and still am waiting for some decent martial arts animations, patience really is needed.
I do believe that one day there will be soloable content that provides incarnate storyline based content and it will probably provide equitable rewards. However, also based on prior history, I don't see that content showing up this year. I'd consider us lucky to see it some time in 2012.
Nuking the entire shard tree and replacing it with threads would take less time than creating that content. -
Quote:And how much more time before you're T4ed in all slots using nothing but shards? How much more farming/content will you have to do before you even get one of those slots T4ed?Originally Posted by Beef_Cake
I will agree the conversion rates are pretty bad. But taking that into consideration, my Fire / Psi dom has never touhed a trial and yet she is already unlocked all her slots and have abilities slotted in them.
I have the following:
Pyronic @tier 3
Interface @tier 2
Destiny @tier 3
Lore - not slotted yet, I was waiting for the new pets we got yesterday
I use my dom for farming and playing normal content a lot. So I took my shards and converted them to threads, and again I wasn't happy with the conversions but I still did them and it worked out fine for me. So it can be done, regardless of how much we dislike the conversions. But the length of time it took me was a little longer than my others that did do the raid content, but not astronomically longer.
When we were first testing shard drop rates in beta, I was getting 8 an hour on my main doing nothing but farming scanner missions. How many shards will it take to get a single T4? -
Quote:A "little" longer? If you're speaking on cosmic timetables, sure.Originally Posted by Beef_Cake
Without trying to sound rude saying this, this is all I have to say about the raiding.
For the past 7 years this game has been designed around teams and solo play. Now we get raiding for a fairly large populous of the community and people gripe about it. Well you're not forced to run the raid content.
You too can participate in the Incarnate system without entering any raid content. It's just going to take a little longer. You can still earn your Incarnate shards by running the content that has been made for the past 7 years, then convert it to whatever you need. It'll just take you a little longer to get what other people get in a few days of raiding.
I am NOT griping about the addition of raid content, BC. I know how many people have been asking for it and for how long they've wanted it. I'm HAPPY for them, for you, all of you.
I'm griping about the idiotic conversion rates. It took me less than two weeks to get T4*2 and T3*3 by doing trials. Compared to the year+ that it would take going the shard route is complete BS. It's not a case of a little longer.
I'm griping about the "here's a metric ton of ways for you to progress for the last seven years" 180 degree turn to "you want incarnate stuff, fine, here's three trials for you to farm, that's all you get, don't like raids, tough #$*&^." -
Quote:I once attempted to solo the ITF with my claws/sr scrapper. I got all the way to the last battle and found myself ripped apart by the auto-hit fluffy.Originally Posted by Tetsuko_NA
So, um... just play the stuff you enjoy?
Please correct me if I am wrong, but you enjoy playing the non-Incarnate content without Incarnate powers, yes?
Why change your playstyle?
I'm asking quite seriously - what are you progressing your character <i>towards</i> in doing these Trials?
Now that I have a huge self heal, a tighter attack chain and massive fire DoT spewing out of those attacks, thanks to incarnate abilities, I'm betting that I can take that pesky fluffy out before it can kill me.
That's one example of many I can come up with.