Aura_Familia
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Posts
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Joined
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Intriguing.
Agreed on the comments on SP's errr interesting face (read: pornstar) and BaBs.
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Quote:*gets popcorn*Originally Posted by TonyV
*rage speak sniped* -
Quote:I stopped here. The WST, which is a task force can MOST CERTAINLY get you something that can advance: Notice of the Well, which can be converted to shards.Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
If you got everything you needed from running the trials once, what would be the point of them even existing? They would be just like a cheap drugstore toy: played with for a couple hours, and discarded in favor of something else.
Why do you have to get a tangible reward EVERY time you do something? What is wrong with earning something over time? Especially since that something was intended to be a timesink in the first place. That's all endgame systems are: timesinks. The devs want people to keep playing the game, so they introduce something that cannot be gotten done and over with quickly.
A Task Force is not an endgame. It does not earn you anything you can't get elsewhere, probably easier. At level 50 there isn't even any character progression.
Also two specific TFs give you things that are directly tied into Incarnancy: Apex and Tin Mage.
I think this is the issue that many folks are having, the view that some have that endgame MUST equal RAID/Trial when that is NOT the case.
EDIT: And I say all this as someone who loves the trial system despite it's obvious warts, which the devs are working on. -
Quote:From my memory Bill and TonyV have had issues in the past so that might be coloring this discussion.Originally Posted by Jetpack
Thanks for starting this thread, Bill. Some good data - and as others have noted, x8 isn't normal either, so this is the more quick solo method.
I would I could say I'm surprised by the crap being thrown at Bill.
Edit - after being on my first Keyes, I appreciate the earlier 2 trials much more.
I think you can guess my views on some of TonyV's more extreme view points.
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Quote:You mean how the Alpha slot currently works?Originally Posted by rsclark
"Endgame" has always been a bit of a misnomer. A less concise name is "advancement after level 50". That requires that the characters still be able to advance in power, and that they have something to do with that added power.
The problem with almost everything you list there is that they have the same avenue to power advancement - IO enhancements. Mothership and ITF and LG and AE and Tips are all just alternate ways of getting the same advancement. It works, and it is good to have so many different paths.
But it's also bad for several reasons. First off, it's not simple. Do what my roommate does and grab the highest (purple>orange>yellow) set you can get and 6 slot it in the powers you use the most, and you get a slightly improved character compared to what you would get with some bizarre, frankenstein of mixed sets and HOs and everything else built with a specific purpose in mind.
Secondly, inf and the market exist. It is an endgame you can effectively skip if you have some other means of earning money. You can hit 50 and instantly poof yourself to the end of the endgame.
The problem is that endgame needs to be really slow and have tons of stuff to get, but cannot greatly increase power, because as the power creeps up and up, you need more content to justify the need for that new level of power. The IO system has the slow, tiny power creep, but the tons of stuff doesn't exist because of the limited number of slots you have to stick stuff in.
It's a fine system, but it has an effective than many people can reach - or at least give up on going any further into. So, you need a further endgame to play after you reach the end to the first endgame.
Then comes the incarnate system. The absolute worst excuse for an endgame that I can imagine. First off, the rewards are not small, slow increments of power that you can grow into. With the exception of interface, every slot is a tremendous increase as soon as you slot anything. The equivalent of 30 pre-filled slots in your powers. A crashless nuke that's more powerful than a normal one and on a fast timer. A massive heal for those heal-less melee sets who used to scrape by with throwing 2 powers at the medicine pool. A pet that's better than an endless supply of shivans. Then three of them give another huge burst of power when you hit t3.
This is bad design. Gradual rewards are better than huge lumps all at once, because people will accept getting gradual rewards gradually. The way it is set up now, you get nothing,nothing,nothing,nothing,nothing,nothing,no thing,nothing,nothing,OMGTHATSAMAZING,nothing,noth ing,nothing,nothing,nothing,nothing,nothing,nothin g,nothing,nothing,nothing,HOLYCRAPIAMGODHERE,nothi ng,nothing,nothing,nothing,nothing. As a reward structure, it is moronic. The only sensible thing to do is burn through to get to whatever you want as fast as possible, because there is absolutely no reinforcement during the process at all.
What I want is a well designed endgame system. The kind where I can get on and play as I would like and on occasion see some new content as I grow out of the old stuff, but generally, just play and see an improvement - no matter how slight. As it stand now, you have a choice between "do this specific content" or "keep pushing Sisyphus", neither of which is enjoyable.
EDIT: Not sarcasm, I'm saying the system they implemented for alpha could be added on to other slots: namely Notice of the Well via weekly changing tfs. Perhaps giving both a Rare component AND a Notice as the reward for completing the WST. -
Quote:You have a terrible memory. You most certainly did cry doom. your posts during the AE exploit debacle made it seem like the game would end if the devs didn't come out and outright ban anyone who powerleveled via AE.Originally Posted by TonyV
The two are related, but there's not a direct cause/effect relationship there. Here's what it boils down to: I really like this game. That's it, it's that simple.
Because I really like this game, I pay for a service that I willingly offer to other fans. Make no mistake: Running the Paragon Wiki and Titan Network actually costs me money and an extraordinary amount of time. Thanks to some generous donations over the years, it's not all out-of-pocket, thank goodness, but if you think I'm making money off of the sites, you're mistaken.
Also, I'm genuinely impressed by all that the developers have accomplished over the years. Having been in development in the past, I know it's a VERY hard job. Meeting the deadlines that they do, having as stable a product as they have, and seeing that most of them actually still have hair boggles my mind. I've met some of them in person, and they're really cool people who love their job. All of that, especially paired with the fact that I really like this game, means that yeah, when I see baseless attacks against them, I'm happy to defend the devs.
Maybe you're under the false impression that I've never criticized the developers. Maybe you missed my threads back when they gimped the e-mail system. Maybe you missed all of my worries when Issue 9 was released that having a tradeable loot system was an open invitation to RMTers to bug everyone. (And boy, did they ever.) Maybe you missed a few threads way back when CoV launched of me complaining that I thought it was silly that villains were level-capped at 40. I seriously doubt you had access to the Lighthouse Lounge or City Scoop forums. *twitch... *twitch... You probably missed how I repeatedly blasted the decision to make these permanent costume codes only available to people who either have lots of money or who are lucky enough to be geographically close to a convention or meet-and-greet. Maybe you weren't in the beta forums and you missed the heated discussions I had regarding the decision to not give so-called "paladins" who never change their alignment some kind of award for staying true to their morals, something I still think they screwed up and that I'm not happy about. I think it was a hideous mistake to not follow through on their threats to nuke AE exploiters more than they did.
Of course, during all of my criticisms, I never cried DOOOOM!!! (at least, not that I can remember). I never demanded that the devs accommodate my will. I never conducted sham "tests" to support my position. I never threatened to quit the game. I've consistently criticized with the understanding that I'm never going to be 100% happy with the game, and that's okay. 97% is pretty damn amazing. Does make me a suck-up brown noser?
The sentence right before that still reflects that silly stance. -
Quote:Errrr the only thing he is testing is the alternative advancement through the Incarnate system based on shards and how viable it actually is. His first sentence: "So we've got lots of forum posters going on and on about how the current solo path is good enough for incarnate progress." And that's not really false as I've seen that silly claim posted about during the various discussions on the need for a solo or small teams path. He's disproving that.Originally Posted by TonyV
No, because "solo path" to Bill and a few others constantly griping here doesn't mean the same thing that it does to most people. To most people, "playing solo" is something you do sometimes. Maybe it's even something you do most times. It's not something you do all the time, to the exclusion of all else, going to great pains avoiding teaming up with anyone, EVER.
To most people, the shard rewards you get while doing "solo" stuff are there to supplement--NOT supplant--the rewards you get for doing incarnate stuff such as the Incarnate trials and Weekly Strike Targets.
Yet that's what this sham of a "test" is based on: the premise that you will never ever run an Incarnate Trial, that you will never ever--and that's the key, literally never ever ever, not one single time over the course of a hundred years--run a trial or strike target. That has absolutely zero to do with how people, even most self-professed soloers, even Bill, since I know for a fact that he has run task forces, actually play the game. I know it, you know it, the devs know it. It's the elephant in Bill's room that he refuses to acknowledge or talk about, and the straw man that he keeps building around it is designed specifically to hide the fact that it's a completely unrealistic expectation.
You absolutely, positively do not make game design decisions around such contrived shtuff. Will Bill's request eventually be implemented? Maybe. Hell, perhaps even probably, I don't know. But if so, I can guarantee you that it sure won't be because of stuff like this so-called "test."
I think you have some issues. -
Quote:Actually they are a hybrid, as you can STEAL (by defeating) what's needed to get shivans (I think nukes also) from other players who already did the PVE.Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
I'd just like to point out that those are not PVP awards. They're PVE awards that are (along with badges) used to entice people into a PVP zone. Since the rewards are so nice, the PVP setting is also used as an artificial difficulty.
But yes, that is all off topic.
And lest people forget, a lot of these rewards can be gained via astral merits--which can be gotten through means outside of trials. Some of the rewards are, admittedly, silly to lock behind these restrictions. -
Quote:Except that's really not one of the main problems with balancing pvp. Not since side switching. Walk into RV and you see all the ATs appearing on both villain and heroside since GR.Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
based on certain information that's been revealed, and a rather convincing argument another forumite made:
One of the core problems is the ENTIRE I13 system. I won't derail this thread further. -
Horrible solo progression is horrible.
Also get rid of shards, they are not your "precious" devs.
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How about yes.
More iTrials, more low level content, more tfs, more everything. More COH.
Would be nice if bases, pvp, and AE got some love though.
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Quote:Just commenting on the part bolded. I think this is an extreme fallacy. They don't need auras and emotes as a reason for us to keep running the trials when they have already stated that they will be expanding the slots and just did with LORE. The expansions to LORE BY THEMSELVES are enough for folks to justify going back to replay the BAF and LAMBDA and now Keyes, since Keyes gives BOTH types of iXP.Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Well said.
I've been saying similar for quite a while now.
Why are these things so difficult to acquire?
Because the devs know damn well that if they weren't a whole lot of people would burn through everything in a week and be right back to complaining that they need more stuff to do. It is quite simply completely impossible for the developers of ANY game to deliver content as fast as that game's players can blast through it and get bored again. It just can't be done. It takes nearly a year of development to design something that we can play, master, and get burned out on in less than a month. With that kind of ratio of effort to player entertainment, the devs have no choice but to design things that we will have to linger on for a while so they have time to design the next thing.
I do think gating things that a brand new level 1 character can use behind level 50 exclusive content is a little extreme, but they have to put it somewhere, and they have to give us a reason to keep running the content they've busted their butts for the past year making.
I completely disagree that they need costume parts to keep us running the trials. In fact if not for the LORE expansion I doubt most would keep running them. I think the devs are misguided if they think costume parts will keep the critical mass needed to keep the trials running.
Expansion of the actual slots and powers of the slots WILL. -
Quote:Interesting way of looking at it. However the flaw in that is the Incaranate armor doens't affect your combat stats or the stats of your allies or the stats of your enemies. . .Originally Posted by Zortel
For me, I look at it like this:
Does Aura X affect my combat stats or the stats of my allies or the stats of my enemies?
If Yes: Not a cosmetic item.
If No: Cosmetic item.
The auras, the trail auras, the costume changes, the emotes and the non-incarnate chest symbols do not affect my combat ability in any way, and thus should not be gated behind incarnate rewards.
Actually that is a good argument to in fact ADD such effects to the armor.
WHAT?Quote:Originally Posted by TamakiRevolution
As much as the last 30-40 threads it was addressing :P I blame myself for reading every thread, either with coffee in the morning, or vodka in the night.
There is nothing wrong with reading these forums with some alcohol at night...
>.>
<.<
what?
Having to twist yourself into a logical pretzel to prove that the auras and emotes belong behind the Incarnate trials because they are an increase in power is loltastic in epic silliness.Quote:Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
My character can have glittering fairy wings from level 1.
**** the aura is account unlockable, so characters who have NEVER and will NEVER go on an incarnate trial can use these pieces.
So why are they locked behind the Incarnate Trials again?
They are only locked behind them because the devs wanted them to be. I'm fine with that.
But I'd prefer the folks didn't try to insult others intelligence by trying to justify that said decision wasn't completely arbitrary.
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Quote:I disagree. It goes directly to the idea that auras are an increase in power. If they are then the booster packs are basically allowing you to BUY an increase in power, something that many players have already stated they won't tolerate going forward. For those reasons alone I don't see Auras as any sort of increase in power. And like emotes should not be locked behind the Incarnate system. At least not ones that do not in any way allude to being an incarnate.Originally Posted by Pacur
Booster packs with auras are a different animal than having to unlock these auras with E-merits. I won't comment on the market yet, because there is little known about it at this time.
Also please explain how bubbles and slime are an increase in Incarnate power, but being on fire isn't. By your logic nearly every aura in the game NOW should be switched to being behind the trials.
I have no issue with the Ascension Armor (which looks like it was made specifically to show Incarnancy) being exclusively a trial reward. The auras and emotes make no logical sense as being an increase in power.
Oh and technically speaking Ascension Armor isn't really showing your power increasing. Throwing a massive pyronic fireball, a shield that heals everyone at an increase rate, or allows everyone's abilities to be ready to use in extremely shorter time periods . . . yeah THAT's an increase in power and is ALSO a VISUAL one. A costume which doesn't do anything really with what has traditionally been associated with power in this game, doesn't impress me as a visual show of power. Then again cosmetics NEVER impressed me.
Or put in another way, yeah that AV may have an epic fire attack that's all flashy, but if it's doing 10 -1s to my Fire Brute, my Brute is going "ROTFLMAO, you call THAT an attack, here's an attack" *does footstomp knocking AV on his/her ****
Just saying. ;-)
With that said again the Ascension "Armor" (snicker) is fine as a visual cue of Incarnancy, and thus fine being locked behind the trials. I"ll be nice and not insult the art team by stating what I think of how the costume pieces in that set look.
Sooooo you're saying this thread and the Original Post are pointless?Quote:Originally Posted by TamakiRevolution
This Just In: People who dislike end game, and despise trials, dislike i20.5. News at 11.
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Quote:I mean the auras that can bought with real money and used at level 1. Aka, some of the booster pack auras, and I assume the auras that will be buyable at level 1 from the Freemium market.Originally Posted by Pacur
At lvl 30, you get Auras ABC. After running E-Merit content, you get E-Merits, along with gaining power. This allows you to access auras XYZ
E-merits, after all, are just a means to an end, meaning that they themselves are NOT "power". They are used by players in this game because its hard to show you gaining power without some sort of token, at this point anyway. -
Quote:How do you explain the auras that can be BOUGHT, if auras are supposedly an increase in power?Originally Posted by Pacur
Ok, my logic is as follows: At level thirty, heroes and villains to unlock Auras must undergo a mission, much like unlocking capes. This somehow changes them, where now they can give off these well, auras. So, lvl 30 you get aura, and later you can unlock another aura by running exclusive E-merit content, that content changes the hero/villain somehow, and they can now form this new aura. Hence, increase in power, and ability to do the aura.
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Quote:Originally Posted by Pacur
I am aware of the PVP IOs.
What you are referring to such as the nuke, and shivans, they are useful in only a very limited degree. Shivans you get a pet, and nuke is well..a nuke.
Saying that the PvP rewards such as shivans and nukes (I am not talking about PvP IOs here) changed the game, I'm sorry, but I just don't see it.
There were hamdion raids that were made TRIVIAL with just NUKES.
Shivans can basically allow some sets to solo AVs alone.
And as I said the devs DISABLED use of the for a reason. 16-24 players using Shivans and nukes would have made the trails stupendously easy. There was a MULTIPAGE thread discussing the decision made to disallow them. They are that good.
Those rewards most certainly DID change the game.
EDIT: There are also 3 TYPE of nukes unless my memory fails: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=205678
From that thread on them above:
"The nuke is kinda of underwhelming against a single hard target.
Though 8 of them together after 8 bios and 8 chem burns are downright nasty against the Freedom Phalanx in the LRSF."
"They are very effective against Hamidon if everyone has them and uses them correctly "
"The nukes are meant for teams. By yourself they are a good buff, a good debuff, and a good AoE damage attack. That's bugger-all for an hour's work and under no circumstances should you tolerate such antics. Once you start playing with teams, you start seeing results. A whole team rendered hard to kill and with a fat damage buff is huge. The rare all-boss spawns go down well when nuked. But where you truly start to see shenanigans are when they stack. Archvillains and Heroes at the end of very hard SFs and TFs are no match for a properly-prepared team, and nor are the buff abd debuff caps. Imagine, if you will, eight Bionukes, followed by eight Chemical Burns, followed by eight Nuclear Blasts. That is a 1200% Damage buff, a 6400% regen buff, -400% resistance, -280% defense, -240% endurance, -800% recovery, and around 4800 damage before buffs and debuffs. For some teams this is unacceptably slow, and they will instead summon and Biological Mutagen eight Shivan Decimators.
If this concept fills you with a sense of almost religious terror, do not be alarmed. It proves only that you are still sane.
One nuke on one man is crap. One nuke on eight men is devastation. Eight nukes on eight men is such incalculable power as words fail to describe it. No sooner do you see a foe than they fall as though the Hand of God simply reached down and turned them off."
I could go on.
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Cathedral_of_Pain_Trial
After entering the room, characters can look upon an Aspect of Rularuu. He is surrounded by a shield similar to the ones around the Resonators. There are three more Willforges. The shield can be brought down using the same method previously used on the resonators. Once all the mobs are defeated, characters have about a minute to fight the Archvillain. He has good regeneration. Temporary powers such as Shivans, and other enemy debuffs can improve the chance to defeat the AV in one attempt. (Note: Warburg nukes cannot be used during this trial.) Once he is defeated, players can choose a reward of either a Temp Power with a small number of Reward Merits or a large number of Reward Merits. Each member also gets a huge end of mission bonus to compensate for not gaining any experience, INF, or drops in the mission.
Not trying to be condescending but you need to read up on these "pvp rewards" and what they can do before you outright dismiss them. -
Quote:There is an Incarnate Rewards thread in the development part of the forums that explains the issues. It's been going on for a while.Originally Posted by Pacur
For the participation reward you means stuff like the extra astral for killing 30 IDF on the final phase of LAM or something else entirely?
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Quote:With that said, I want to mention I agree with a lot of what you say. The trails aren't that bad.Originally Posted by Pacur
Fainting and the like: Completely agree. See above.
However, as TonyV pointed out it is 100% valid to come to the forums and say I dislike them because of this or that, just as it's valid to say you like them.
There are aspects of the trials (like the silly participation rewards system that I still suspect is bugged in many ways) that I dislike even though I LIKE the trails system.
Keyes isn't bad but it's not something I'll be running regularly unlike the BAF and Lambda (even with it's warehouse lag map).
EDIT: The Praetorian Hamidon looks like it's going to be very interesting, btw.
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Quote:Utterly and completely false. You can get the shivan shards and warburg nukes form pvp zones which could be used to trivialize certain PVE content. Btw, for a history lesson, the devs DISABLED the use of them in Catherdral of Pain, and now the new Incarnate trials, because those pvp rewards were just that good in pve.Originally Posted by Pacur
I'm sorry, but to me there is a flaw in your argument: PvP did not give any other rewards than those that can be used in PvP. This game is not about mainly PvP. It is mainly about PvE. Hence, it is extremely unlikely that Incarnates will be neglected in the same way that PvP would be.
Also pvp IOs can be used in pve and come with secondary pve effects. -
Quote:I don't consider being able to faint as a signaler of a gain of power.Originally Posted by Pacur
Again, new costumes and auras signify gain of power through continuing down the path of the Incarnate.
That's something a level 1 character should be able to do, if you think of it from an RP perspective.
Epic abilities at their 3rd and 4th tier that allow you to show just how powerful you are. . . sure. Being able to faint as a show of power? Epic silliness. We'll have to agree to disagree.
And to address the question that everyone in this thread keeps ignoring, yes I fully expect these emotes and auras to be able to be bought with Paragon Points soon. I'd welcome that.
I personally think there should be NO limits to what they put into their Micro-transactions system. Look at other threads related to COH Freemium. I"ve been consistent on that. -
Quote:I'd assume the limitation is based on the community team having time to actually play them/review them first.Originally Posted by Clave_Dark_5
Speaking of being a spoiled brat...
I was wondering why they still want to be so stingy with a DC designation. I mean, after a thread like this, they probably won't be able to swing a dead cat in the AE in a month of Sundays... er, Thursdays... without hitting an number of arcs worthy of a DC. Why not just pass one out whenever they find a really good arc? By Christmas we'll only have six more DCs, you know? Why not make it twelve, or more?
The more great content that floats to the top of the AE, the better the AE looks to all the players, after all. -
Quote:I lol'd.Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
And... who's surprised by this announcement?
*crickets*
Didn't think so.
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SHOCKING!!!
GRATZ!!!! -
Quote:You need to go read the announcements for Issue 21.Originally Posted by Tenzhi
I would pay to be able to start hero-side with a CoV AT.