Wintry

Let me clarify:
I belief you can do almost anything with almost any combination of toons.
Depending on the challenges and what you lack or don't lack to deal with them however everything ranges from a smooth ride to a good afternoon of plowing (which can be fun too, as I've experienced doing a duo ITF with 2 lvl 41s on SOs only at +1x4).

When I say headache-inducing or near impossible in this case I'm referring to attempting to do precisely that which the screenshot shows with a scrapper involved.

And in all fairness I should also mention the toons we use for our duo MO runs are mostly severely pimped, something to consider when debating if it's generally doable using other combinations.

All in all, I agree that to a very large extent ATs don't matter and you can get anything done using anything you like as long as you try hard enough and you don't set too ambitious goals.
When it comes to pushing limits however I'd say it's just naïve to think you can always bring your allround scrapper thingy and just 'go show how it's done'.
It appears to me many scrappers spend a lot of their time trying to convince people all other ATs are basically bonus, but not really needed to achieve anything.
That is where I beg to differ; even in today's CoH where fenders tank and tankers AoE the crap out of stuff in a blink you can still limit your options as to which types of toons you can use to do something, as long as you challenge yourself enough.

Quite possibly you might be referring to a duo MoLG of approx 1:35 I did quite some time ago which is a record I've broken several times since.
In light of the discussion though I should add that once we aimed to get under half an hour for the first time 2 corrs no longer seemed to work.

Contrarily to other TFs where me and my duo partner always found we got the best results by staying on corrs the LGTF's specific set of requirements caused me to swap mine out for a Fort to set the currently standing record.

Enlarge

Using a scrapper on this, however, would definitely make things needlessly headache-inducing if not near impossible.

Seriously, this is not just some detail. With F2P we're in new waters. The playerbase is expanding and a large share of that simply does not have access to IOs.
They are, however, clients or customers if you will like any other. You must create a game that's balanced for each possible combination of feature access one can have.
Keeping everything in mind is required. Balancing around the invention system's possibilities is just out of the question.

Granted, I misread that.

It seems this is where we differ.

The tanker AT was designed very differently from scrappers and the likes.
As you stated earlier the tanker has different strong points related to its role in a team; solid aggro control and survivability come to mind.
Scrappers can do a little bit of aggro control and they have some survivability, but they don't combine it the way tankers do, which is why we have tankers.
The scrapper puts out more damage, but the tanker needs to soak up more damage. For this to work the scrapper can do with just one or at least less of the various survivability increasing factors.
A tanker - due to solid crowd control for a whole group being part of its intended role - needs more survivability and combines multiple of those factors to achieve that.
Therefore sets that qualified for proliferation from other melee ATs to tankers are generally sets that already include a combination of often res+heal/regen, def+heal/regen, res+def or something such.
One exception was the recent in my opinion borderline proliferation of SR to tankers, but even that made more sense than regen does, because past a certain point in the sheer amount of mobs you need to cope with at the same time def is a lot more effective than regen alone. You simply cannot have a tanker's aggrocap worth of mobs that you taunted just fine hitting you with nearly every attack and successfully regen/heal all of that - health will steadily go down, and this has nothing to do with alpha damage.
Whereas simply too high total incoming DPS all hitting you outdamaging your healing potential is guaranteed to wear you out defense on the other hand can always be sufficient to keep you alive by means of dumb luck - it just can't do it in a truly reliable manner.

I'll be the last to deny regen can be good on a scrapper, but it simply doesn't meet the requirements to be equally effective under the circumstances that come with being a tanker, because a scrapper - even that far too common type that runs up front going "Woooo look at me I'm so totally awesome I'm carrying the team yo!" - is being ignored by half the mobs no matter how hard they try and how much they think they're doing everything, unless they're solo.

And that brings us back to this example of that 'awesome' regen scrapper 'tanking' solo that was brought up earlier in this thread - doing a double RWZ challenge. That's what it would need to be able to do. In truth it's not a requirement they're able to do all that tanking 54s, but for comparison sake that compensates a little for the fact they'd have to cope with a larger amount of mobs - a tanker's aggrocap.
However, it would need to be able to do these things successfully in an F2P game, which is much like i8.
I can tell you with fair certainty that the way things are now it can't. It would die. Horribly. Just ask someone to strip his IOs out and go do RWZ challenges...
For that to work it would require either substantial def or substantial res to be added to complement the heal/regen.

If that would happen in porting it the set would A) no longer be itself and B) look scarily much like Willpower... which in turn brings me back to:

This is where I think you go wrong.
It would if it had anything else - a second survivability increasing factor, like every other tanking set has.
But it doesn't have anything else.
It does not have the resistance to reduce the damage from the never ending barrage of attacks to something it can actually cover with its regen/healing.
And it does not have the defense to simply avoid a part of those hits.

Here I agree with you.
If the Regeneration set is no longer the Regeneration set, then it might stand a chance.... depending on what it is then.
But then again we'll end up talking about willpower which indeed does work and they already have for that exact reason.

Willpower is much like regen in a way that's actually capable of tanking rather than messing about in scrapperlock with what stuff the real tanker missed taunting.

It's just recently become no more than realistic to ignore their existence actually, because we're now in i21 and to F2P they don't exist.

That doesn't mean powersets can't be alrightish with SOs and become 'awesome' with IOs - that is still fine.
But it does mean with only SOs you have to be able to not just sort of fall over while only trying to do your job.

Alpha isn't the only killer. After i9 people started gradually forgetting what gameplay before was like. Now we're 12 issues further down the line and I notice it's come to a point where many folks don't have the slightest clue about it anymore.

Half of those who posted in this thread seem to have no idea of how staggeringly many attacks an old fashioned tanker had to deal with tanking for a full team.
This is why you need a solid combination of def, res, max HP, regen, etc to survive and why they had that.
Regen has the very, very least in this area - nothing worthy of note apart from the regen and heals - and that is why it's a set designed to cope with a stray hit rather than the level of dedicated tanking that the single most tanking-tailored AT in the game is supposed to be capable of.

You know... just to remind you, this game was once balanced. Every character had its role and a team had to work together.
And guess what, if you're contemplating proliferation you still need to make sure that the set you're bringing to yet another AT is capable of meeting the requirements of the ATs primary purpose to any extent whatsoever.
It doesn't have to be the new best tanking set, but it needs to be able to face something without dying. And I don't mean 1 minion, I mean something in line with the design philosophy behind the AT.
Regen was made to fill in a whole different role and unlike SR (although that was a borderline case too because thanks to def and DDR it may survive a lot, but it's absolute lousy in terms of reliability which is high up the priority list for tankers too) the one thing regen does have from the multiple it should have to make itself resiliant is the one that doesn't work at all on its own when trying to do a tanker's duty.

And if you're wondering why that bit of history matters, it's because coincidentally F2P gameplay is pre-i9 gameplay in this particular regard.

Looking at MoG on a tanker isn't going to help with anything in this world.
Wake up - even with recharge of 100% base + 100% enhancement and +400% hardcapped global rech you get 25 seconds downtime during which you will die 3 times over if you're doing anything the unenhanced blaster on your team couldn't take care of himself with half an insp tray.

Cool, you found a detail that if you cut it out from enough of its context allows you to ask a rather pointless question.
Survivability 101: Resistance in itself is worthless. Defense in itself is worthless. DDR in itself is worthless. HP in itself is worthless. Combine several and you might eventually reach a point where you don't get squashed by everything. This is the basic principle of creating a tank.
Fire has resists and a heal. Granted, it's still more on the squishy side than most things but then again it does at least have some tradeoff. Fire's relatively mediocre survivability is accompanied by greater offensive capabilities which indirectly function as a third survibility increasing factor, because the shorter the mobs live, the shorter they need to be tanked.

So essentially fire gets (1) some resists, (2) healing and (3) defense in offense from its primary.
Elec gets (1) good resists and (2) healing.
Dark gets (1) resists and (2) healing.
Regen gets nada, dreams, zip, (1) healing, nothing, no money back guarantee.

And that is why regen works on a scrapper and is inherent crappy on a tanker. Sure you can pull of casinotanking as I also pointed out in the last post, but you cannot get it actually reliable and if there's one thing a tanker should be able to do better than other ATs its tanking reliably. Otherwise a blaster with presence and a tray full of Robusts and Phenomenal Lucks will do just fine too.

Lastly all of the above is completely irrelevant.
I'm guessing you have a fire, elec, dark or one of each and felt the need to defend your powerset's pride, but I never suggested what you implied I did and - again - all these IO things you drag here are a non-factor for this discussion in any relevant form.

Nice try, but this pretty much compares to the difference between a car dealer telling you if you take your car to africa on your vacation you should beware that a certain rope bridge across a ravine at certain specific GPS coordinates should be avoided because with your car being 50 kilos too heavy for that one particular bridge the ropes will likely snap and getting into your new car whilst telling the dealer "Well, time to take it home I guess." and him casually responding "If I were you, I'd worry about getting it off the sidewalk without it exploding first, heheheh.".

Psi is a rope bridge, but regen explodes as you hit the ignition.

On a scrapper or stalker it works because they don't tank.
And when a scrapper thinks he is tanking he's still doing a comparatively lousy job at it.
For brutes it depends on how they play, but if it's a brute trying to completely fill in the role of the team's dedicated tanker and he's doing a good job at it regen sucks pretty bad for him too.

...

Yeah... are your thoughts on that last sentence starting to flow yet, Pyro?

Ok...

...

Yeah! Hold it right there. Freeze...
Now toss the IOs outta your head, before your next post ends up irrelevant to the proliferation question again.

Continue.

No, but thanks for the concern.

I have an opinion too and I post it too. And I included the full reasoning behind my opinion as to make it clearer to see why I say this.
If you believe the correlation between number of words typed and the extent to which you feel emotionally engaged in a subject or whatever it is you're getting at is a lineair graph just... please don't go into psychology.

I tried to get away with "Then they will die en masse." first a few posts earlier with the same reasoning going already.
The only reason I felt inclined to post the full motivation for being against this is because the way I see it you were steering the discussion for as far as there was one in the wrong direction by implying regen has more than enough potential to fullfil it's job just fine in any case, which I believe in the context that matters it doesn't at all.

As for why it's important (for as far as anything posted on these boards is important... as that's very relative) it seems you're wrongly assuming I just care for things that directly affect me personally, but I don't.
Even if I don't pick it (which wouldn't happen since I don't do tankers at all anymore in today's game anyway) it could still have a negative effect on others. In a worst case scenario it could have a negative effect even on the retention rate of new players. If you make a wrong pick and get disappointed / annoyed by whatever factors repeatedly in a short timespan after just getting started that's usually bad news.

If downtime wasn't invented for this, it sure has a good side-effect going.

People still use Fly?

SS+SJ for everything, on everything, tbh.

You don't need that whole environment to begin with to be honest.
A map's gotta load once you picked your mission, but you can just do with one big expanding treeview menu to select what you're gonna play.
That seems to be what we're heading towards...

It's funny, I've seen a lot of games start with such a mission terminal kind of thing and then grow from there as it got players and money and eventually entire universes would grow around it and the mission terminal would eventually be phased out.
Here it's the other way around. We're like degenerating towards it.

Oh, yeah... and they call it QoL.

3) Delete about the last 614 travel powers that were added for obscure reasons.

For your convenience, dear reader, a TL;DR is included at the bottom.

Contexts. It's all about contexts, and people love to mix them up.

First off for anything you just took the effort of laying down to be of any relevance whatsoever it needs to be achievable with rather basic resources. Strictly speaking it should even be doable with just SOs since if I'm not mistaken it's still being claimed that game content other than incarnate content isn't being made harder and is as doable without the invention system as it is with it.
Even if that weren't claimed it's still important in this context - all the more with F2P now.
You can't seriously add a powerset to the character creation screen that requires new players who come in and see it as an option like any other option to use the knowledge they do not have to devise a build using the invention system they do not have access to just for toon to be able to be of the most basic use in what its AT is essentially for.

This double RWZ challenge doing scrapper you speak of really should:

• Not cost loads of inf.
• Not even use IOs to begin with.

Ofcourse I realize this is an extreme example, that you don't need as much survivability for 'regular' tanking as for this and that it could be a lot more realistic build if you made one just for tanking standard content, but that doesn't make the following point any less true: You may have proven that a well pimped regen tanker with as much luck as all the world's lottery winners this year can in fact accidentally survive a spawn, but that doesn't - and I can't stress this enough - even in the very, very least bit justify considering proliferation.
Why not? Because proliferation shouldn't aim to cater to the needs and wishes of us bitteroldvets who just wanna slap Hami around on a blapper or have been preparing for years to face Rularuu the Ravager when the day comes, it should bring sets which - to a large extent - already accommodate serving the ATs primary purpose (tanking, just to remind you) to that AT.

Tankers can tank, scrappers can tank, brutes can tank... hell, a fender with the presence pool can tank.
Some tank better than others though, let's stop to think why. What is truly unique to a tanker that makes it better at its own job than a scrapper could be? Not def or res, because the scrapper could... you know... pop inspirations.
[wiseguyprot]Yes, those can only get him to a lower res hardcap. Now that you're done pointing that out to me with your excited looking, glittering eyes, thinking you just undermined the whole rest of the post you hadn't read yet ask yourself this: does this make the AT? Is any AT basically just a copy of another AT with its attributes changed such that you can pop 1 small insp more without that being in vain... and nothing else? I thought so - shoo shoo.[/wiseguyprot]
What really sets the tanker apart from the rest is its all in all better aggro control and high maximum HP, because gauntlet and the maximum HP are inherent to the AT - everything else is just powerset business.
Since I don't see def and res in the above phrase (yes, resistance cap is high for them, but that's not the same as res and it's not like the AT inherently gets any actual res) those two are powerset business.
At the very basis when you get hit there are roughly only three factors that decide whether you live or die: your HP when you get hit, your def to the damage when you get hit by it and your res to the damage when you get hit by it.

So we've established the overlap on stuff that doesn't come inherently with your choice for the tanker AT and stuff that plays a role in governing over your life includes at least def and res.
Considering the facts the tanker's job is to keep the aggro off his teammates for as long as needed (confirmed by the presence of one of those unique inherent traits: Gauntlet, which suggests taunting is useful to be effective from the AT's design goal's perspective) and that it's pretty hard to hold aggro when you're dead let's have a look at those other two life governing factors we need to find a way to come by; let's have a look at def and res in the regen set.

Oh.

Errr...

Wait a minute...

It's virtually absent.

Remember the context it has to be of at least some use in - the one with slightly more relevance to pondering potential proliferation than the RWZ challenge tale.
Being the prime AT for tanking purposes a tanker should be able to do a decent job tanking all regular content for a full team on normal rep. That means +0x8 spawns.
Not in the scrapper way where you use regen to shrug off the stray hit a proper tanker (read: a shield/dm or inv/? or such) missed pulling towards himself, but whilst holding max aggro.
EBs and AVs should be all the same, the bigger and badder the foe the more you can rely on a few buffs from the team, that's just how it works.

Now let me remind you what happens at this point, just to get the mental picture right: The tanker gets hit. It gets hit lots. It gets hit from everywhere. It gets hit by everyone and its mother and its brother - even the baby. It gets basically hammered, because honestly full aggro all focused on you thanks to your pro taunting results in many, many, toomanytocount incoming things bound for your head per second.

You have only mediocre def if you pick up all the trash like CJ, Weave, Maneuvers etc and resistance is so little it's hardly worth mentioning.

What def from sets? No sets here because it's nice for bonus, but it can't be taken into account in deciding whether or not to proliferate since firstly not everyone even has access to IOs and secondly even those who do should be able to use their toons for precisely those things the ATs were designed for in all traditional content using just SOs without notable issues.
In this regard regen doesn't have any notable issues, regen is one big and hell of a notable issue.

On a sidenote even with more def you'll find yourself stabbed in the back on a regular basis by lack of DDR.
And no, adding DDR isn't an option either, because DDR is only for sets that also actually get defense to begin with.

Finally, I don't think the devs would be too keen on the idea of placing another primary set on the menu under tankers at character creation, including above the set's description in big red lettering: "WARNING: This will utterly suck unless you extend it with a system that errr... you sort of need to be VIP for or have a truckload of Paragon Rewards for."

TL;DR:

... tankers?

... lolregen?

They would die en masse.

It would appear so...
I had imagined it harder, but I had a go last night and took remarkably little effort.
We used a beam/rad corr and a bane spider. Logs show it's 39:21 from the first attack on the first pylon until U'Kon Gr'ai fell, which is I guess isn't horrible for a first run where we only had a rough idea what to do to get there at all.

It was hardly interesting enough to try again, so we're on to the next thing I guess.

This. Totally.

Even the Red Caps would be jealous.

.... what? 2 bombs? Really?

As it happens I've just been discussing having a crack at this one with a friend the past week, but I assumed we'd need to load some alts just for the bomb phase.
Are the bombs the only requirement to trigger the spawn or is there a kill threshold as well?

Pretty sure the default does use /tell.

Yes, but then you also had your avatar.

Edit: Ok, it's not part of the avatar, but you get the point.

Hahaha, yeah, no... not really.

But the downtimes will go back to just the weekly maintenance eventually, I'll give you that.