Aett_Thorn

It's okay, we both schooled Claws.

This might sound ludicrous to some, even to me, but if you like Smite, and you'd like to keep touch of fear, then might I suggest dropping:

Hibernate?


Considering that you've got both Hoarfrost and Siphon Life, you might not need the extra panic button.

Except that this would have a number of side effects, as mentioned above, such as having every OTHER power that increases Endurance recovery increased by a similar amount. So, basically, you'd need to cut every other +recovery power down as well, such as Speed Boost, AM, Quick Recovery, etc. Otherwise, you'd have a lot of builds out there where this would be a huge buff for them, at no cost.

This is very true, and is why you can see builds out there that have Quick Recovery, Stamina, and Physical Perfection. Do they need that level of Endurance recovery? Not likely. But they still do it.

At some point in a build, there is very little need to add another attack, or another, superfluous defense. You've got a full attack chain, or enough Defenses that you're not dieing. So, what do you do? You take other, 'gimmick' powers. Stamina is a great choice for these picks, since they help you do everything else better. It will likely always be so, no matter what you do to it.

And this is the point that many of us are trying to make. Basically, even if it was 'fixed,' the same indicative 'problem' would still be there. Stamina would still be in 95% of builds on the boards. Why? Because here on the boards, we often try to push builds, even just a bit, to do better at what they're doing.

So if the indicator of a problem remains, does that mean that the problem remains? If and that is true, then is there a way to fix it?

To quote this directly, the answer to this is both yes and no. The EULA specifically states that the game can change at any point. As such, the players are responsible for their own actions up to a point, and when a change occurs to make do with that change and plan around it.

But if you do not like a change, you can leave. So, ultimately, there is a responsibility by the Devs to the players, since they do want to keep people playing and paying.

That being said, the Devs tend to take a cautious approach when making these changes. Overpowered sets and items tend to take a while to get fixed, since the Devs know that there will be complaints, and they want to make sure that they do it 'right.' Do they always succeed in getting it right? No. But I think they've been pretty good about trying to get there. And they are one of the more communicative Dev teams out there. In terms of the BotZ change, yes, it was brought to the forums' attention by somebody breaking the NDA for the closed beta, but Castle did make a post explaining exactly why they felt the change was necessary, which is more than he needed to do.

No, you don't. You can sacrifice nothing, and still be endurance efficient. Especially with IOs. Unless you're trying to fight +3s, you can deal with just one Acc in your attacks, and hit fine. Then, throw in 3 Damage enhancements. That leaves you with two slots in a 6-slotted power. You can use both of those for EndRed if you want. You'll be capped or near-capped to ToHit, ED capped for damage, and still have good EndRed. How does that sacrifice anything?


With IOs, it becomes even easier, since you tend to get good Acc, EndRed, and RecEd while slotting for damage.

So again, what build are you using where this becomes a problem?

Seriously, that's what you took from that? His point was that, if Endurance is a problem for you, that you can build in a way where it becomes inconsequential. If you are unwilling to do that, then claim that it's not fun for you BECAUSE of the endurance problems, then it is not the game's fault.

Seriously, what are you running that has such great endurance problems that it's so unfun for you?

That's not the problem, though. What a lot of people are saying here is that you can build in a way that let's you blast the bad guy, and STILL not have endurance problems. You CAN compensate for the endurance issue, especially with IO sets now, because they generally end up giving you more endurance reduction than you would normally put in with SOs. However, even if you are using SOs, and you have a problem with running out of Endurance, there are ways to build around that, such as slotting 2 EndRed in every attack power, and such. Why slotting like that would ruin your game, I don't really know.

Okay, let's take a look at this. If the Devs tomorrow removed Endurance and endurance costs from the game, do you think that people would have more or less fun? Immediately, they might have more fun, since they get to use powers willy-nilly for once. Over the long-term, however, they'd lose interest, as there's no need to do anything but click whatever power is recharged. There's no need to strategize which attack to use in a particular situation. Whichever one is up is what gets used. So, over the long term, people get more bored with a game that just became "hit the buttons as fast as you can."

Obviously, that is not what you are asking for, and it is the extreme of what would be done. However, it is trying to show what happens when you make a facet of the game trivial. And I do believe that that is the only point at which you'd think that Endurance would be fine.

That isn't really what he was saying here:

What he was saying is that there's no way to tell what change you need to make to endurance based on what a single person wants. What you and I would think of as an effective change to endurance is likely quite different. And there's no way to tell, just from somebody saying that more endurance is needed, what level of endurance change is being called for.

This game is already trivially easy at the lower levels. The first 10 levels can be gotten how fast? An hour? Add to that the fact that it's actually easier to hit stuff at the lower levels than it is in the later game, thanks to beginner's luck. (and really, let's not take the beginning zone populations into account here, since most people only use those zones to chat and from levels 1-5, which doesn't take that long to get anyways) Without Vet attacks, it's actually pretty hard to run out of endurance in the really low levels, since you don't have enough attacks recharging fast enough to drain your endurance. For instance, take that FF/Rad being touted about in other posts. Put the tier 1 attack on auto, and run up to any enemy your level. You will NEVER run out endurance before the enemy is dead. Even throwing the tier 2 attack in there, you will likely put an enemy down before you run out of juice, unless you're fighting something well above your level.

People don't generally join an MMO thinking that it's going to be ridiculously easy. If they do, that's pretty dumb. If you want a game where it's just an I Win game right at the very beginning, there are plenty of free games online that will allow you to do that. Most understand that there will be aspects of the game that they will need to learn.

If 10% of the game thinks that it is flawed, and 90% think that it's fine, does that indicate that it is flawed, or not?

No two people are going to have the same definition of fun. It just can't be done. As such, it's almost impossible to create a game where everyone can do everything, on every different character type, and have fun doing it. That's why there are choices in this game. If you don't think that a Defender can solo well enough, well then don't play one solo. But, they can solo effectively. I know, I've done it. Was it my favorite character? No. Did I have fun doing it? Yes. Still do, when I get on that character. So, how do you compare my fun to yours? You really can't. So, the Devs just need to create a spectrum of options so that anyone can find something that they like to play. And I think that they've done that.

If, after all of those choices, none seem to work for you and allow you to have fun, well then this game might not be for you. But that doesn't mean that the game is inherently broken.

On a holiday, no less.

Wouldn't this mean that sets with faster animations times would always do better than those with longer animation times? If my tier one power animates in half the time yours does, but does the same damage, then I'll always win.

2)

Animation times is now PART of the damage calculation formula. It isn't the whole thing. Yes, Full Auto is a long animating power compared to the other Nukes, and does less damage, but it's also up far more often (and the 'fact' that Assault Rifle needs to be re-looked at anyways, most likely) and doesn't crash your endurance. As such, it should do less damage than the other nukes, despite the longer animation.


3)

Okay, now I'm confused. Basically, now the powers aren't doing the same damage per activation time (I know that you said this earlier, but this is where it really comes to light), but using that as the standard. This basically makes it so that each power needs to be re-done in PvP, and isn't a simple change at all. The suggestion basically comes down to changing all of the powers (again) for PvP, using a different scale.

4)

How would this work in the lower-level PvP zones? You know, when some sets have gotten their "tier-9 power" (under your classification) and others haven't? And where do the more esoteric powers fit into this classification? Is Soul Drain equivalent in tier to Build Up? What about Buffs and Debuffs? What about something like Ice Patch? Ignite versus Fireball? Voltaic Sentinel versus Bitter Ice Blast?

5)

I think this would be a lot trickier than you make it out to be. Not everything is just cut-and-dry in this change, since everything then needs to be modified by animation time anyways. Plus the fact that not all powers are created equal, and certainly sets aren't. It's basically a complete rewrite of how attacks work in PvP.

Even IF it works and is easy, and you get powersets within an AT to be consistent, then you'd still have inter-AT issues to deal with.

Why? Carp Melee is a great idea!

And just out of sheer morbid curiosity, how exactly are we breaking the EULA?

Well, it's not impossible. They'd just end up being either a LOT of work (like, over 1,000 new animations per vehicle) or so ridiculously weak in comparison to the current travel powers that they'd be useless.