Well, not being one that is much into PvP, I do have some logical concerns with your idea and how you seem to want to implement it. This is in addition to the fact that you think the Devs don't care about PvP, which I bet they do, they just really don't know how to fix it.
Now, onto my concerns:
1)
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Wouldn't this mean that sets with faster animations times would always do better than those with longer animation times? If my tier one power animates in half the time yours does, but does the same damage, then I'll always win.| In PvP you could have each tier of power do a specific damage number as standard across an entire AT. The differing point would be the secondary effects and the actual AT chosen along with animation time being a secondary damage booster. |
2)
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| I realize the current system was apparently designed around animation times but in all honesty I cant see how that can be true.. look at full auto for instance, 4s animation yet subpar damage. With my idea you would take a standard power animation time of 1.33s (going by mids) and use that as a modifier on top of the standard damage for the Tier of power. |
3)
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As an example: Jab animation time 1.07s total, now say your standard damage for a tier 1 power was 70 unslotted at level 50 on a tanker, using the modifier of animation time standard being 1.33s you would reduced the damage slightly overall. Haymaker animation time 1.5s total, say your standard damage for a tier 3 power was 100, using the modifier you would raise it slightly because it takes longer to animate than 1.33s. |
4)
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| Powersets that get there stronger power earlier than the final tier, such as super strength and knockout blow, would simply have the order of the tier setup changed, for instance, knockout blow would be classed as a tier 9 power since its the strongest in the set, however it would remain in the same position as a power. This would be the longest part of the workaround identifying each power and registering its tier accordingly. |
5)
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| Overall, using this mechanic would make the devs job a lot easier when it comes to tweaking and they wouldnt have to delay changes because it would just be a case of changing global modifiers for the AT on a certain tier if one is overpowered. |
Even IF it works and is easy, and you get powersets within an AT to be consistent, then you'd still have inter-AT issues to deal with.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Thats why I counted the factor of damage per activation time as a modifier....|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Well, not being one that is much into PvP, I do have some logical concerns with your idea and how you seem to want to implement it. This is in addition to the fact that you think the Devs don't care about PvP, which I bet they do, they just really don't know how to fix it.
Now, onto my concerns: 1) Wouldn't this mean that sets with faster animations times would always do better than those with longer animation times? If my tier one power animates in half the time yours does, but does the same damage, then I'll always win. |
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
2)
Animation times is now PART of the damage calculation formula. It isn't the whole thing. Yes, Full Auto is a long animating power compared to the other Nukes, and does less damage, but it's also up far more often (and the 'fact' that Assault Rifle needs to be re-looked at anyways, most likely) and doesn't crash your endurance. As such, it should do less damage than the other nukes, despite the longer animation. |
The damage should reflect the 4s your able to stand there an be hit, the fact you dont lose all your endurence is also part of this. You do have a good point, endurence use would make this single power unbalanced compared to the other nuke powers, hail of bullets and rain of arrows would also fall into this catagory of faster recharge nuke type powers but nothing is stopping those 3 powers being looked at seperately. 3 powers vs all the powers is a big difference
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
3)
Okay, now I'm confused. Basically, now the powers aren't doing the same damage per activation time (I know that you said this earlier, but this is where it really comes to light), but using that as the standard. This basically makes it so that each power needs to be re-done in PvP, and isn't a simple change at all. The suggestion basically comes down to changing all of the powers (again) for PvP, using a different scale. |
Using a formula to adapt powers isnt the same as going through each one and inputting a number. Im not saying it wont take work but it would take much less work doing this than fixing the current system to any workable state.
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
4)
How would this work in the lower-level PvP zones? You know, when some sets have gotten their "tier-9 power" (under your classification) and others haven't? And where do the more esoteric powers fit into this classification? Is Soul Drain equivalent in tier to Build Up? What about Buffs and Debuffs? What about something like Ice Patch? Ignite versus Fireball? Voltaic Sentinel versus Bitter Ice Blast? |
Using different base damage numbers for the powers of each tier would be the damage base of the set before activation time is taken into account with the modifier equation.
Of course the lower tier powers will hit less than the Tier 9 powers but at that stage the players will have lower resists/defence/debuffs too.
Soul drain has never been equivilant to build up in PvP but its up to the dev team if they want to change it so soul drain = build up, buffs and debuffs arent really broken other than slows so just leave them as they are.
This change isnt designed for every single power, its just for the damage ones which are clearly unbalanced all over. Stalkers and blasters are pretty much the PvP favorites right now because the damage numbers are screwed.
Ignite is a difficult power to begin with, its a higher tier power though so would deal more damage than fireball. In my view fireball would be a Tier 3 power where as Ignite would be a Tier 7 or 8 depending on location of flamethrower.
For the other two you mentioned, which I am glad you did, Ice patch and voltaic Sentinel are pets and control based powers, which would be unaffected by the change. The only pet based powers that would be affected would be masterminds seen as there a whole AT and not just one or two powers. Controller and Dominators would still have all there powers judged using the same method of Tiered damage,. although there highest damage powers would be the first 3 powers and the others would follow a lower base damage. So in Grav for instance, the first 3 powers would do the most damage. Crush, Lift and Gravity Distortion. Propel would use a lower damage modifier which makes up for the fact other sets 3rd power is an AoE immob type power costing more endurence. Illusion only has two attacks there, but in return it has a bunch more pets anyway so the 3rd Tier power would simply be blank in this case.
Im quite aware that some sets will struggle because of a more control based powers than damage powers thus will unbalance them but I arent claiming to have a global PvP perfect one time fix, like any PvP game there are simply going to be some sets better than others.
With so many choices theres always going to be ones that do better, just in this option you have a lot more of the ones that you could bring and not be laughed at like in the current PvP setting.
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
5) I think this would be a lot trickier than you make it out to be. Not everything is just cut-and-dry in this change, since everything then needs to be modified by animation time anyways. Plus the fact that not all powers are created equal, and certainly sets aren't. It's basically a complete rewrite of how attacks work in PvP. Even IF it works and is easy, and you get powersets within an AT to be consistent, then you'd still have inter-AT issues to deal with. |
The modifier by animation time is a simple mathematic equation, working out a fair value for every 0.01/s to modify the damage by wouldnt be horribly difficult...
Back to my original example, say jab has a 70 base damage, animation time 1.07s.
using the modifier for damage for say 1 damage for every 0.01/s difference upon 1.33/s animation time, this would mean taking off 26 damage due to animation time being faster which would equal a total of 54 damage unslotted.
By no means would this be anything like the final number its simply an example of how it would be applied. Of course tweaking to this modifier would probably be needed even on live but its an easier task than looking at each power on its own.
Its becoming a general concensus now that the developers are losing interest in PvP since the i13 changes, the lack of real changes in i17 has just added fuel to the flames. On freedom in particular there are a lot of players now who intentionally built there charecters to pvp but because its so inbalanced now there charecters are utterly useless and there forced into a select few builds.
This is an issue with many games with PvP and the problem is relying on developers balancing the builds frequently which im sure devs simply dont have time to do right now, especially with so many possibilities its going to take a very long time to do correctly.
I would like to suggest a simpler workaround.
In PvP you could have each tier of power do a specific damage number as standard across an entire AT. The differing point would be the secondary effects and the actual AT chosen along with animation time being a secondary damage booster.
I realise the current system was apparently designed around animation times but in all honesty I cant see how that can be true.. look at full auto for instance, 4s animation yet subpar damage. With my idea you would take a standard power animation time of 1.33s (going by mids) and use that as a modifier on top of the standard damage for the Tier of power.
As an example:
Jab animation time 1.07s total, now say your standard damage for a tier 1 power was 70 unslotted at level 50 on a tanker, using the modifier of animation time standard being 1.33s you would reduced the damage slightly overall.
Haymaker animation time 1.5s total, say your standard damage for a tier 3 power was 100, using the modifier you would raise it slightly because it takes longer to animate than 1.33s.
Powersets that get there stronger power earlier than the final tier, such as super strength and knockout blow, would simply have the order of the tier setup changed, for instance, knockout blow would be classed as a tier 9 power since its the strongest in the set, however it would remain in the same position as a power. This would be the longest part of the workaround identifying each power and registering its tier accordingly.
As for secondary effects like defenders debuffs etc, these would remain unaffected from current numbers since there are really no issues with them beyond slows not being quite up to scratch from personal experience.
I think Holds, Stuns, Immobs etc should all be made to last a little longer, up to a 6 second status change when slotted but in return be given a lot longer recharge as standard on non controller/dominator builds but still have the current mechanic where status resists reduce the duration as well by a set percentage.
Overall, using this mechanic would make the devs job a lot easier when it comes to tweaking and they wouldnt have to delay changes because it would just be a case of changing global modifiers for the AT on a certain tier if one is overpowered.
If any sets have a blatently obvious advantage then you can work from there on an individual basis, such as -recharge from psy, which is already more or less on a basic global effect (except for a couple of powers). This way you know where the issue is coming from if the entire AT is too overpowered or if there are certain powersets causing issues.
At least you have the entire AT set to the same standard rather than having to deal with everything individually and having to do one or two changes at a time.
Thoughts/Flames?