Another_Fan
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Quote:Originally Posted by DrSpoon
I can't believe this thread is still going, or that I read most of it.
It boils down to this:- Blasters are a viable AT for some people.
- Blasters are not a viable AT for some people.
- If you fall in 1., play a Blaster.
- If you fall in 2., don't play a Blaster.
- Until there's a completely objective metric of fun, it's all subjective.
Would have been nice if that was the attitude taken re:brutes by the developers. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Fury Flechette
Blasters are a team AT. Sure they can solo (many of them very well), but that doesn't play to their strengths. Scrappers can also team, but they're designed to be more self sufficient. Comparing the two are comparing two different things IMO.
Well seeing as the question was why a blaster, and you want to take the position they are a teaming AT its interesting to see a comparison of what they actually bring to a team relative to what adding any of the other ATs does.
From personal experience its usually much less on the positive side and much more on the negative side than virtually any other AT with the exception of kheldians.
As to soloing well for the post 20 game about the only thing blasters solo better than are defenders and and I would stack certain defender combinations against the average blaster combination. -
Quote:Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
Not at all. To make a profit you have to sell for more than your costs. It is only "to make the largest profit possible" that you have to sell above the 50 rate.
Only a few global IOs sell more below 50 than at 50, therefore by your theory no one shoudl ever sell anything other than a level 50.
That's not a theory, its called cost accounting and making a profit. Lets for the sake of argument say an automobile cost $5000 in materials another $3000 in direct labor costs, the way its being presented here the care shouldn't be sold for more than $16000. This is ignoring the fact that the factory and tooling for the automobile cost billions that had to be borrowed from lenders or raised from investors, both of whom actually want and expect a return on their money. If the sale of the automobile can't generate a competitive return to the people it either doesn't get made, or the makers find some way to involuntarily have money coerced out of peoples pockets.
And yes If you actually want to make inf which is implied in the original post, you shouldn't be working the sub 50 market. The constant calls for people being forced to get off level IOs as a reward are little more than calls for them to get screwed because the poster wants what they want at a bargain price.
Now if someone wants to do something as a community service that throws the pricing question out the window. The question then becomes what is the price that is needed to keep doing it, and that is the cost to manufacture the IO. If the OP has inf needs that he wants to satisfy by doing this the answer becomes his (inf requirements/time)/(# saleable IOs)= Net profit/IO.
Now I say this all the time but it goes like water off a duck, If you really want low to mid level IOs start paying more for them or get real patient and do what I do, and just leave lowball bids up on alts forever. If the farmers and regular players felt that it was actually worth their while to generate these things there would be a flood of them that would astonish Noah. -
Quote:If that were true, he would have to be some kind of bumbler that wasn't aware of how well or poorly the powers he designed worked and just changed things to produce maximum frustration and annoyance in the players. That could hardly be soOriginally Posted by Silverado
Castle will look at this thread thinking: "sets that need to get nerfed next"
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Quote:Originally Posted by Morbeux
Okay, I give you that not all combinations have Aim and Buildup. On my AR/DEV blaster, I have neither, yet I have never had face planting problems soloing Malta on +2/1. In fact, I cant remember the last time he has even died.
Here is the heart of the problem in this thread. The people that are posting that blasters are fine think +2/1 is doing fine. The people that are saying there is a deficiency are thinking +2/8 is good, +1/8 is the acceptable . If you go to the prior mentioned pylon results thread and actually read it, you will see the top times there done while fighting a pylon and being at the aggro cap surrounded by +2 Rikti.
Oh and those times weren't 6 second fights. Thats a scrapper staring down a pylon and a Rikti spawn for 4-5 minutes no insps. -
And seeing as you are making accusations about people not reading lets take that 6 to 1 survival ratio and 50% more damage out put. Both of these numbers are wrong no matter how you slice it the absolute peak blaster single target damage is about 10-16% more than the observed max scrapper output but lets pass that by. In equivalent situations the scrapper has to last only 1/3 longer than the blaster to do the job, but can last 6 times longer.
This isn't even considering that the blaster has a 400% damage cap while the scrapper has a 500% damage cap.
If you are going to use someone to do your thinking for you at least try and get someone that does a good job.
Edit realized who I was talking to, and the need to elaborate.
The damage cap means that on teams with large damage buffs (1 kin) the the scrapper will be doing 1/6th less damage, again that's using the stated values. Solo without buffs the blaster will be able to handle spawns 4 times the difficulty the blaster can.
What this implies is one or both of these things are out of balance. -
Quote:I agree with most of what you are saying. In the controller case you have missed the pets and their buff/debuff capability. The ability to drop pets in a spawn and draw the alpha is very powerful and depending on the secondary they can drop more than one aoe control on the group.Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
See my previous point about difficulty setting and bosses.
Most squishy AT's are going to have trouble dealing with two boss rank mezzers at one time when solo, so to suggest this is a blaster problem is just silly.
Controller runs in on 2 Gunslinger bosses. Fires off AOE hold power, then ST hold. Locks down Gunslinger #1. By the time the ST hold finishes animating, Gunslinger #2 has the controller perma-held with his cheating ice bullet. Result: A quick case of eating the floor for the controller. And that's provided the controller actually gets to fire off the AOE and ST hold. 50% of the time, the first Gunslinger would be able to get off his status effect before the controller could activate a second power and the controller would be eating floor that much sooner.
On the default dificulty settings of 0/0 we should also be talking SO only builds and no IOs including the KB IOs. Even with that restriction blasters wouldn't solo much worse than any other AT. The differences become apparent when the difficulty is increased. -
Quote:"If I am still alive", "I don't have 6 seconds" There is no way a solo SO'd blaster is going to survive to kill bosses in a spawn in 6 seconds. Just to point out the problem they need better than 400 dps to do that job and when you are firing off aoes you aren't even close to that neighborhood.
Live like you could die tomorrow.
Does that mean I'm saying you're going to die tomorrow? No. Of course not.
Like and as are used to form similes. They serve to juxtapose idea which are *different*. That's why I linked the definition for you. It is not a literal prediction of what will come, nor is it a identification. (it's not the same as saying "I am going to die in 6 seconds")
So if by "pretty obvious" you mean you can try (and fail) to twist it to mean something it doesn't say to discredit another person, then sure. Politicians do it all the time, so why not gamers?
But keep spinning, heck fullmens and I don't exactly get along you can probably get him to come on thread and contradict himself once again. -
Quote:There is the full quote and its pretty obvious what was said.
Basically, I play my Fire Blasters like I have six seconds to live. Fireball, firebreath, Blaze, dive for a corner if I'm still alive and there's more than a couple guys moving. Maybe throw a fire blast while I'm in the air. I don't have time for six minute 1970's guitar solos and I don't have time for Rain of Fire.
As to the 6 times tougher, blasters have 20% more HP and double the damage the base damage on the SOS, depending on the power sets a defender or controller can have 4 to 10 times the mitigation, and built in mez protection self heals and other damage magnification. Oh and in terms of single target sustained damage they currently hold the pylon soloing record for an Illusion/storm controller.
I don't even want to go into team building with them, if I have the luxury of choice, an extra defender or a scrapper easily works out, you really don't need a heal badge project or extra venge bait.
Edit: He is also the guy who was upset about blasters softcapping because it gave his FF defenders nothing to do. So when he says 6 times as tough, its 6 times as tough as what ? -
Quote:Originally Posted by Airhammer
You know why people cry blasters are broken ? because they cannot mindless do what they do on their other AT's
Then either blasters are broken or the other ATs are overpowered. And seeing as you want to get into the motivations behind why people take positions in this argument, really if you can't participate in a debate without saying that the people who disagree with you are crying, I find that the people that say there is nothing wrong with blasters fall into several broad categories, those that don't know what they are talking about, those that do know but are more worried about nerfs to the ATs they are enjoying, and finally people that don't want to face the fact that they put a colossal amount of effort into what was a mistake (looks at my retired psi/ment blaster(first and last time I build for theme)) -
Quote:Originally Posted by Gilia
/thread
There are very few in this community as concise and accurate as Fulmens. I think this wraps up the debate quite well. Thank you.
The people arguing against Blasters are only countering about 10% of the points made against them on this thread... and almost everything they say is being debunked. So it sounds like this thread has exhausted its usefulness.
Then you need to re-evaluate your position as he is also the man that expects his blasters to last no more than 6 seconds in combat, and has no use for rain of fire because outlasts him. And his math is just wrong in the quote you are citing. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Arbegla
Except your not just gonna stand there and let a sapper/gunslinger pound on you. And if your solo, you could very well get a gunslinger/sapper (lt/minion) which, if you pop BU/aim, you can easily 1 or 2 shot.
Take a fire/fire/fire blaster for instance, BU/Aim->blaze, dead sapper. with BU and aim still active, gunslinger freezes you. Ok, that happens, but you then throw flares, and fire blast, with a ring of fire for giggles, and hey look, dead gunslinger.
Blaster is still held, but everything is dead, and blaster got hit twice, tops?Not to put to fine a point on it, the first post is just wrong on any thing but a fire/elec in melee range you can't kill a boss in the time aim and build up are active its just not doable, if you have more than one you are done.Quote:Originally Posted by Dragonkat
Seriously? You consider this blaster Kyptonite? And first off any blaster who lets the mobs get the first shot by the time you're fighting Malta really does need a learn to play comment. As mobs always take a moment to react when they see you provided you don't attack, which if you know how to abuse the AI usually lets you run right up to them before they start the alpha.
Also I've never even played fire or elec but can tell you how this would go against your average solo spawn.
Build up + havoc punch + thunder strike = dead sapper as you run into the spawn, rest of Malta should be reacting right around now if you're quick. No need for ST defiance attacks, you get the first shot.
Blaster should have enough HP even without sets to soak the alpha attacks that are coming your way. If sapper got an attack off, power sink should = problem solved.
Gunslinger tries his ice bullet.
A: I laugh at it because I have acrobatics to soak the hold, go to town on him and spawn with aoe's in fire.
B: Break free's are your friend, it's not a sign of a broken class to have to use them, it's called part of the game.
C: He misses, or I use A or B, lightening clap to stun him, dead gunslinger, aoe'd to death mob pack in the process.
Now if this was my ice/dev?
Smoke grenade the pack, lay caltrops, cloak close to Sapper.
Aim + Bitter freeze Ray sapper (since I know to fire my long animations first, see knowing your powers) use bitter ice blast and if need be ice blast to finish him off.
Freeze ray gunslinger as he bounces a hold off acrobatics again.
Retreat back across caltrops, and if I'm feeling frisky watch remaining minions run into the trip mine present that might be there. Finish them off while gunslinger is held.
Keep gunslinger perma held with both holds as I deploy a gun drone just to be mean, watch him melt with ST chain.
That's before epic pools when I may just feel like an Aim + LRM or then have three holds to make sure practically any mob pack I run across spends most of a fight held and debuffed. And since that blaster has enough recharge bonuses slotted in sets I can get two gun drones out when I really feel mean.
All that aside though if you wanted to talk annoying you should have used operation officers, the stun grenades are 100X worse then the gunslinger holds, and last about three times as long I swear, I bring break frees for them all the time, provided I don't learn that using something like beanbag, suppressive fire, freeze ray, scramble thoughts, cosmic burst, or screech on the mezzer first might be a good idea.
But the biggest problem with your scenario is any other mob pack isn't Malta, you can't just use the (arguably) hardest enemies in the game and point to say "See blasters is broken!"
Any blaster worth his salt with any primary that isn't energy (knockbacks are iffy) or fire (The worst in my personal opinion as it is all damage and no mitigation) Has some means of countering the mezzer before he can even think of mezzing you. And with /EM and power boost your mezz is that much more powerful. Any normal mob type like freaks, council/5th or family? No chance against a skilled blaster.
If you're gonna try to use this to claim blasters are somehow broken, gonna have to do a lot better then that. As an AT they just require a different method of thinking, and yes a bit of skill to play properly. But needing skill doesn't equal "broken"
And I don't know what game DragonKat is playing but if its this one and you are on anything but the lowest difficulty settings the spawns will get the drop on you. -
Quote:First using your single target attacks its going to take you 15-20 seconds to take out that gunslinger he has 2500 hit points and you are doing about 120 dps give or take when mezzed. Second you assume you have gotten the initiative.Originally Posted by Arbegla
Except your not just gonna stand there and let a sapper/gunslinger pound on you. And if your solo, you could very well get a gunslinger/sapper (lt/minion) which, if you pop BU/aim, you can easily 1 or 2 shot.
Take a fire/fire/fire blaster for instance, BU/Aim->blaze, dead sapper. with BU and aim still active, gunslinger freezes you. Ok, that happens, but you then throw flares, and fire blast, with a ring of fire for giggles, and hey look, dead gunslinger.
Blaster is still held, but everything is dead, and blaster got hit twice, tops?
The problem is we are talking about two different cases. Everything does well at the default difficulty settings what is being talked about is how blasters scale up their difficulty when soloing the post 30 game. Most blasters really hit a wall as spawn size goes up, the exceptions I am certain of are Fire/Archer/Assault rifle and even those are in the situation where they need the initiative to deal with large spawns. That is the best of the blaster primaries, and if you go by the usual logic that prevails for balancing on these forums fire needs a nerf as its both a complete outlier in terms of damage and recharge times. (Personally in terms of recharge times and how blasters work all the tier 1,2 and the hard hitters should be brought into line with fires recharge rates not the other way around but that's just me) -
Its more a matter of picking your enemies.
Non Mezing enemies that do a type of damage you either have defense to, or resistance to, are your farms crop. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Chyll
Blaster don't NEED mez protection. They get to keep blasting away, even while mezzed. They are nearly mez immune, with no toggle or endurance penalty required.
edit: (and I'll echo the [break free] comments if you feel you have to use all your leet powers as quick as possible... that's even easier now with the combine three tehnique that never existed when I leveled my namesake... and for that matter neither was the current defiance... blasters are so much better than it seems many give them credit for)Lets take the case of Malta and that fire/electric that was mentioned up thread, you have a gunslinger, a sapper, assorted other enemies. The gunslinger freezes you, the sapper goes to town. Just for the sake of argument, say the sapper is your prime target and you manage to take him down, this can be done in about 4 seconds using single target attacks that are covered by defiance. At that point you still have 25 seconds of single targeting the gunslinger while he and the rest of the spawn, go to town on you. Good luck with that.Quote:Originally Posted by JD_Gumby
Really, about the only times a Blaster needs a Break Free is if they're soloing and don't spot the mezzer (happens more to the inexperienced, of course) or if they've got Bosses on and the mezzer happens to be one (like with the Lost), or if the mezzer is just generally resistant to mezzes themselves (such as Fortunatas; Blaster primaries come with a stun, hold, knockbacks, or at least a snipe, for a reason, folks!).
I mostly solo and my Blasters rarely bother to bring more than a pair of Break Frees (one for general use and one meant mainly for use after an Awaken if I faceplant and what killed me wandered off) - and it's even rarer that I need to use one thanks to Defiance and always taking both the tier 1 & tier 2 blasts.
Every character has some sort of kryptonite, defense based armors have +to hit and -def, resistance based armors have -res, controllers have bosses that need a double shot to be held, stalkers have ambushes and anything that can see through their stealth everyone has the Rularu. Blasters have everyone's kyrptonite. -
Quote:You realize you are just amplifying my initial argument. Blasters as a broken AT. Truth, I forget about mez protection on controllers because mine have never needed it and quite frankly the psi epic is meh compared to other things that are available. Who needs mez protection when everything is pre-emptively locked down ?Originally Posted by Gilia
This isn't true and even if it were fixed, it has no bearing on the discussion/debate.
Controllers can get Indomitable Will. What are you thinking of for Corruptors and Defenders if not Sonic/FF's Dispersion? Because Controllers can get either.
You can't seriously pigeonhole every AT into the powersets that fit your arguement though. Most Controllers, Corruptors, Defenders, Blasters, and Masterminds have the same mez protection. Yet, only one of them can attack while mezzed. Also, Blasters have the most hitpoints of all of them.
Blaster's have the most restricted access to mez protection, true, but perhaps you should consider how many Corruptors actually take /Sonic. It's pretty low.
Blasters having the most hitpoints is such a red herring that I would love the opportunity to sell Florida swampland as retirement property and garbage mutual funds to the people that quote it. Blasters have 20% more hitpoints than the other squishy ATs, this is a little less than the green inspiration they cant pop because they are mezzed. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Dysmal
My Easy-mode comment is more a snark about mez than anything else. When one group of AT's doesn't even have to think about a whole class of enemy powers, that is pretty much easy mode in comparison.
Actually there are only 2 ATs with no access to Mez protection. Blasters and controllers are the 2, every other AT in the game can get mez protection. Controllers arguably have active defense that actually works. -
The 30 range IOs really don't command enough of a price premium to make generating them worthwhile. The people who understand their value are usually the people that will bid creep and generally drive as hard a bargain as they can from their end of things. They also know that in most cases there is a much smaller market for anything that isn't max level or min level so they can pretty much wait you out.
That said you have to consider this just how long does it take you to get your rolls. How much do you earn/time playing your fifties how much are the level 50 versions of the IOs going for. Now in order to actually make a profit you need to sell your IOs for more than what the level 50 versions are going for + your lost influence from playing below 50 to generate them. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
Well, let's compare Blaster vs. Scrapper then.
Fire Melee Scrapper DPA @50, unenhanced.
Scorch: 63
Fire Sword: 72
Cremate: 85
Breath of Fire: 37 (10 target max)
Fire Sword Circle: 41 (10 target max)
Incinerate: 94
Greater Fire Sword: 73
Fire/Electric Blaster DPA @50, unenhanced.
Flares: 63
Fire Blast: 51 (Ouch!)
Fire Ball: 75 (16 target max)
Fire Breath: 41 (10 target max)
Blaze: 170 (
)
Charged Brawl: 131
Havoc Punch: 96
Shocking Grasp: 100
So, let's see.. Blaster has 4 single target attacks with more DPA than the single highest DPA attack the scrapper has. Blaze alone does twice as much damage as all but the highest DPA scrapper attack, Incinerate. Fireball has as much DPA by itself as both scrapper AOE attacks combined AND hits 60% more targets.
And on top of that, the Blaster has a damage buff from defiance, which adds a good 10%-20% to all those numbers, along with both Aim & Build-Up.
Yep, that is clearly falling 'behind' scrapper damage.
Now that's funny
3 out of 4 of those high damaging attacks are melee and fire isn't the high end scrapper primary for damage
This thread and this particular post
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...81#post3071381
Presents a nice summary of what is actually achievable. Fire is not at the top of the list.
But even on a straight name to name comparison blaster Fire/Elec gets about 300 achievable DPS vs Scrapper Fire/Shield at 267 achievable. That is trading 10% more DPS for at an absolute minimum the ability to survive in a fight 50% longer. That fight is one where both are fighting non mezzing enemies that only do smash lethal tagged damage and its not calculating the added benefits the scrapper gets from higher levels of regeneration and access to the Body Mastery pool.
So the alive scrapper would tend to outdistance the dead blaster. -
Quote:This is horribly off and very misdirecting. Lets start with the elephant in the room, a mezzed blaster is not softcapped to anything and there isn't a blaster with any kind of defense debuff resistance either. So when that mezzing attack lands on a blaster half their defense goes out the window and they are taking 4 times the damage. If they haven't managed to eliminate a significant portion of the spawn by the time this happens their lethality drops by a very large amount due to having no aoes covered by defiance's mezz protection. The controls being talked about, are single target controls that scale very badly with spawn size.Originally Posted by Gilia
Scrappers have a less than 10% gain over Blasters in terms of hit points. That's the same ratio difference from Scrappers to Brutes, and half of Brutes to Tankers.
A Blaster with softcapped S/L against anything *doing* S/L (a ton of content is like this) is only 10% short the survivability that a softcapped SR Scrapper is, and the Blaster will roll out a ton more damage because their sets have (a) longer range, (b) more AoEs, (c) more coverage on the AoEs.
Certain Corruptors will out damage certain Blasters. Certain Defenders will outdamage certain Corruptors. If you rolled out every single combination that did the most damage, the Blaster might not quite be in first... but you're going to have to do better than broad strokes and "some Corruptors" to prove that point.
Based on my last two paragraphs, the quoted line of thinking would conclude that in fact the Scrapper is the worst AT in the game. Because certain Scrappers are worse off in every way than certain Blasters in certain circumstances. Also patently false. I'm just pointed out the error of this line of thinking.
The one thing the blasters do well is large area AOE, but this is nearly completely pointless. When you are a playing an AT that can comfortably gather the entire spawn into onto yourself, you don't need large area.
As for certain AT X outdoing blasters currently the top demonstrated scrapper single target damage is higher than the top theoretical blaster single target damage and both attack chains require you to be in melee range to pull off. In terms of actually being able to pump out AOE damage Elec/shield and Fire/Shield scrappers are still the kings.
What Blasters are, are OK damage dealers with really poor survivability. If you want a comparison would you rather take a Tank or a Howitzer, if the howitzer had the same range as the tank, the same caliber gun, and the same support costs. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Why not just make every loading screen take five times as long, since thats is basically the same thing.
How about making rest instant recharging instead ? That eliminates the "I'm standing around doing nothing" and the "It doesn't feel super" complaints without actually increasing the power level of characters. -
Definitely going to make most of the content in the game significantly easier.
Also a little worried about how it will affect the relative balance of the ATs. It has the potential to take already over performing ATs deeper into over perform territory, on the other hand it may help to close the gap that had been opening up over the past 6 issues.
Just for example of how this is a powershift, here are some of the changes that can be done.
Softcapped blasters now with Acrobatics , A Pet, holds, and an AOE immobilize. (combination of extra power picks and changes to the epic pools)
Leadership on capped defenders also with pets and mez protection.
Melee in general, making the recharge numbers just got much easier, expect to see more of the deeper picks in the epic pools -
Quote:The current situation is no one on the team is running leadership with the possible exception of the defender. Lets say the defender is running assaultOriginally Posted by DSorrow
That's not pretty much what you said.
Let's assume that your current team make-up has -20% Res going on and no one has Assault and would get 80% +DMG from Assault. In fact, let's bump that up to +100%.
Everyone in your team is currently doing (1 + 1) * 1.2 = 2.4 x base damage. The resistance debuff provides you with 0.4x base damage.
You're then dropping the one whoever has the -Res and replace it with another Assault. You're now doing (1 + 1 + 0.8) * 1 = 2.8 x base damage. However, keeping the same debuffer in there, you would do (1 + 1 + 0.8) * 1.2 = 3.36 base damage, 20% more than without the -Resistance, or equal to 1.6 extra teammates (whole team damage on average). This time around, the resistance debuff provides you with 0.56x base damage.
If you were min maxing to begin with, I don't see where the logic is that now with damage buffs available in more builds dropping the -Resistance makes sense. After all, the plenty of +Damage available should make the -Res all the more appealing.
And that's leaving out the fact that the debuffer will bring much more to the team than their (possibly low) damage and a -20% Res Debuff if they have that much of a team player in them to pick up Assault.
That gives us (1+.188)*1.3= 1.54 damage
VS the revised 1.8 assumes everyone has the worst assault.
Clearly the team under the revised situation is pulling ahead and that is without the debuffer.
What I think you are saying is under the revised situation the team with the revised debuffer is even more powerful. I am not disputing that, what I am saying is that if the challenges remain the same the debuffer that was needed for the hard challenges is now optional, and you will likely gain more from extra flexibility in everything else.
The point from Strato Nexus that I was countering is that +80% damage is unimportant. As things stand there are things in the game where team construction and making certain that you have the minimum requirements to win are important well for maxed out builds that composition will be much simpler. Just for example Ghost Widow in the STF no longer so much a stumbling point. Need an emp to tank Lord Recluce ? Just pop the tank full of purples and oranges the rest of the team will have zerged the towers before he runs out. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Mezzosoprano
Except, however, for the fact that -RES multiplies total damage (and cannot be boosted by enhancements).
Team A has +80% DMG from stacked assault. A power at the ED cap now does (1 + 1 + 0.8) x (1) = 2.8x base damage.
Team B has no assault and -30% RES from debuffs. A power at the ED cap now does (2) x (1.3) = 2.6x base damage. (Nearly as much total damage as having everyone run assault.)
Fortunately, a defender with -RES and assault adds even more total damage.
Edit: Realized that the point on the original post had gotten lost. Currently you take a defender with you for the AVs etc that you need the extra damage boost they can provide. Romulus, Reichsman, Ghost widow etc are all encounters that benefit much from having that extra boost. Post the change you will be able to achieve better than current levels of performance and gain more flexibility.
Team C has +88.75% DMG (defender assault is 18.75%) and -30% RES from debuffs. A power at the ED cap now does (1 + 1 + 0.8875) x (1.3) = 3.75x base damage.
And, of course, all defender teams are silly:
Team D has +150% DMG and -30% at least double-stacked. Unslotted powers now do (2.5) x (1.6) = 4x base damage.
Ehh that's pretty much what I said. Oh and a couple of minor issues you need to factor in the defenders lower base damage in the overall team damage, then you need come up with just how much that extra will save you against the lost flexibility from the defender needing to group more.
Either way the proliferation of the extra power choices is a major major shift for the game from easy to brainless. -
Quote:The last exchange I had with you, you were complaining that the pug TF you were on wasn't able to move fast enough to satisfy you. Now +80% damage and the ability to have another member of the team that can split off and handle spawns on their own at good speed is insignificant for you.Originally Posted by StratoNexus
You did not even read what I wrote. When it comes to +80% damage being insignificant, I specifically mentioned WITHOUT kinetics. With kinetics it goes from insignificant to irrelevant. Here I'll quote it for you, because I doubt you could figure out how to find it yourself.
Which is it? +80% damage from assault lets my team split up so we can go through missions faster or +80% damage is a significant factor when we are all grouped up and fully benefiting from every teammates damage/buffs/debuffs? You can't seem to make up your mind. When I said it was insignificant on a team because of how they already work together so well you told me it let you split up. When I said splitting up doesn't work with Assault, you said it helps when they are together.
You can, at this point, either just admit you were wrong or simply state that you feel I am undervaluing +80% damage on a big team of min/maxed builds. I'd recommend the former, but if you choose the latter, the reader can decide whose experience matches their own and move on from there.
Glad to see you are consistent in your opinions.
As to whether +80% damage is undervalued by you, I think anyone who has been on a team that hasn't been able to defeat an enemy because they didn't have enough damage can decide that one for themselves.