Another_Fan
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Quote:Fact every time numbers are presented in this thread you ignore them.Originally Posted by Dragonkat
#1: You still seem incapable of answering even one simple question asked of you.
#2: Prove it.
You know how I said opinions aren't facts? It's remarks like this I was talking about. Kinda like this dead horse too.
Fact it has been repeatedly proved. The numbers have been presented in this thread time and again.
Fact you continuously present your opinion as fact and have stated that facts don't matter to you
And one last fact.Quote:I ain't gonna buy it as my experiences playing blasters says otherwise. The same goes to any spreadsheet, mids plan, or some hey look at me I can solo all the Rikti pylons and states while having a nice cup of tea build. Outliers like that don't have any relevance to the point of the thread, which still is why a blaster. To which I and others say it's because we bring a lot to the table, and because they're fun as anything to play.
Whitewashing fences is a reference to Huckleberry Finn.Quote:Past that? Not really interested in convincing either of you anymore so much as having fun tweaking. After all it was clear from that lil bit of hyperbole in AF's posts and saying that we're "Whitewashing for castle"
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/76
Do yourself a favor and read it.
Oh and an edit. You asked a question but so far you haven't answered the fundamental question. When is a blaster the best choice ? When is it a better choice than anything else ?
I already know the answer to this and its almost never, and it will only be getting worse with incarnates and I19 inherent fitness. -
Quote:Lemme see what have I played up to 50 on blastersOriginally Posted by Dragonkat
While I don't have time for a full reply before work, I am curious about one thing AF.
I've got a full stable of blasters clean from 1-50 range I can play around with, so I'll pass the ball to you, what is proper parameters in your book? and what qualifies as success or failure? As you never seemed to mention that in your post.
More to come tonight after the work at 11. Stay tuned kids! =p
Ar/fire
Ar/energy
Ar/mental
Ar/dev
Arch/Mental
Arch/energy
Arch/dev (Much better combo than the Ar/dev. The only real downside is all the s/l damage)
Been meaning to give arch/fire a try. People keep telling me it works. I just don't see it.
Fire/ment
Fire/energy
I would try fire/fire, but having to take rotp and slot it for damage acc and recharge because it will be part of my attack chain is a big negative
Ice/Ice
Ice/ment
Ice/energy
Psi/ment (don't)
What is it these lack ? Well they all still die much more often than other ATs. They do less for teams and they solo slower in the later game than just about anything except may defenders (depending on the defender even that might not be true) -
Quote:Originally Posted by Lord_Thanatos
Why stop there? VEATS provide buffs like defenders and can do damage like scrappers with some inherent protection! Who needs defenders and scrappers? Just add more VEATs, the other two ATs are not worth it.
Wait it minute I think i heard this before........
You forgot they also debuff -
Quote:Originally Posted by Arbegla
You do know, Frosticus was the one to point out that fire/elec blasters have the higher DPS numbers (vs pylons) then even the highest scrapper build? Which is where he got the idea for a fire/fire/fire dom, and managed to squeeze that DPS up to 450 (no really, those are real numbers here guys)
The blaster fire electric chain was about 315 dps theoretical, that was the best for outright damage. This was done in a thread on peak damage awhile back. I raised the point in that thread you could conceivably do better on a fire mental using drain psyche to suppress regeneration. What you don't mention is the fire electric chain is a melee chain using melee attacks from /electric. And you fail to mention, the observed number for a dark shield chain is right around 300 that is with siphon life as part of the attack chain and with enough survivability to have the equivalent of a +2x8 spawn attacking while soloing the pylon. Now just how much survivability did the blaster trade to be doing the same damage ?
Now just for fun I ran the numbers for a fire/kin corruptor and got roughly 327 dps before the effects of scourge and -regen are factored in. The chain was blaze->fireblast->flares. Scourge in this case will for the sake of argument add roughly 15% bringing it up to 360 give or take.
Pointing out a fire dom can do even better doesn't help your case -
I started to list the things you want from that combination then I realized it was pretty much everything so instead let me take a different tack and give you some points on the things that are more optional than others.
Fire = You want everything but
Blazing Bolt
Inferno
Are both very easily skipped. Blazing bolt suffers from all the blaster snipe problems, about the only thing its good for is pulling.
Inferno, Looks real nice, just not available all that often and crashes your end.
Rain of Fire, Excellent power but its on a 1 minute recharge if you have to choose which AoEs you want from fire this is the weakest.
Mental
Scare, Single target soft control thats weak and you have nothing to stack it with
Mindprobe vs TK thrust, I personally prefer TK thrust, it will provide mitigation. Mindprobe is trying to be mitigation through damage but it does pretty nice damage.
Drain Psyche, braking my rule here its the best power in either of the two sets for a little while it lets you have a very good measure survivability. You top out in the low 90 hp/s for regen. Not as high a capped scrapper can do (149hp/s softcap and 20% resistance) but very good.
Blasters need more powers like drain psyche they make the AT fun. -
Quote:Originally Posted by StratoNexus
When your argument is based on DPAs and damage generated over time and the premise that scrappers can deal as much damage as blasters in a set amount of time, then the area of the AoEs DOES matter.
Sure, I can collapse the spawn with my Kat/Inv or Kat/Fire scrapper and be likely to survive the extra hits I take in order to spend the time doing so. My AR/Men blaster just runs up, picks something in the back and starts shooting. The enormous size of the AoEs saves time, allowing me to put out more damage, quicker, because I don't need to spend time packing my enemies into a tight space.
There is a reason the more popular melee farmers have AoEs that are bigger (Spines, SS, Shield, Electric). Bigger AoEs save time, because you can start attacking sooner.
Thats fine if everything in the spawn dies with the AoE, if there is a boss or lieutenants in there you aren't done untill either they are done or you have dragged them to the next spawn to finish. The melee can start with the hard targets.
Edit I would do more in illustration, but Castle already has too many players whitewashing his fence. -
Quote:In general, I don't know what I could say to change those beliefs . There is a stream represented on this thread, and I am not saying this is you in particular, that takes the attitude, that it doesn't matter how good or bad what you are playing is, it contributes something so its fine. These people might well be happy with a character that has nothing but 5 kinds of brawl with impressive animations. (I exaggerate, but by how much really ?). Then there was the one assertion that the numbers that are the powers weren't a fact but an opinion. Then there was my favorite that scrappers were dull to play ? (Takes a long look at that difficulty slider). There is without doubt some serious capability problems in the AT.Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
You haven't said anything to shake that belief.
I also don't know where your particular bar is for the proof that will shake your beliefs. Blasters don't contribute anything that other ATs don't contribute better and or faster. Even the item that blasters are supposed to be best at (AoE damage) they either do about the same damage or do better damage considerably later than other ATs -
Quote:You look at it and go what are they thinking ? They really need to make incarnate abilities only usable in incarnate content. Either that or between inherent fitness and these powers think about taking the difficulty slider to plus 6 or 7Originally Posted by War-Nugget
But, 10 slots? If you were to slot in all 10, although only one would be available, 3 from Acc/Rech/Dam and a fourth for EndRdx, you almost nullify having to slot anything. Of course, it would be only 94.93% increase to those that are 3 slotted. But, if you were to slot, you could focus on all the "good sets" , not have to worry about what they do to you're power. To me, this seems insane. Just insane. But, I like it!
edit: Just realized one of the posts above, if only the first slot is "enhancement-like" I guess my last little paragraph is faulty. Pet Summons sound sick! So making my bug-related toon run around with 2 Arachnos spider-types, like Disruptors and Blasters. Can't wait. -
Quote:There is no place in this thread that quantifies the combined lower survivability/lower lethality of a mezzed blaster and I have never seen any place on the forums where it has been done well.Originally Posted by Dragonkat
I'm sorry but what part of my post you cherry picked right there was even talking about mezz protection? And doesn't seem to notice the defiance arguments raging through this entire thread about that very topic? *
Are you saying is that your ideas of how a scenario would work are less of an opinion and more of a fact than what the numbers say you can do ?Quote:Is actually a little confused in that regard* What I was talking about was how spreadsheets =/= real game knowledge of mobs, as evidenced by the two realistic scenarios below that part of the post. Which I note you've conveniently ignored. Now if you want to give me a realistic scenario where scrappers pull ahead rather then simply saying that's the case I'm all ears. I'm not a huge fan of people who get opinions mixed up with facts.
You do realize that nemesis farming has long been a popular activity for brutes ? That people can and do farm them in the 500k inf/min + range ? I would really enjoy seeing a blaster manage that. I would be especially impressed if they managed to do it while pulling onto ice patches.Quote:Just for giggles lets throw one more out there, and go with nemesis this time, bout a scrapper friendly blaster hating group as they come given virtually every attack is a ranged one. But given that a lot of mobs like to stay at range and unload rather then close in, how would a spines scrapper bunch them up for his aoes short of a corner pull? something a blaster could do in a much easier manner with range, then go to town with his own aoes.
Let me introduce you toQuote:But, what you did miss was the point of the paragraphs above and below. Spines and fire don't work in a vacuum. There's secondary sets to consider, and while a scrapper gets zilch but defense or resistance the blaster brings a lot more to the table for his sets. If you went fire/fire for instance you just tacked on two extra aoe's for the blaster, and I'm not counting burn or hotfeet as they are a bit more specialized.
Dark Armor
Electric Armor
Shield Defense
Firey Aura
Electric Armor
Energy Aura
Even Willpower will debuff and taunt.
And Super Reflexes as close as you can come to a pure defense and resistance set brings +20% recharge to the table.
You need to re-read. The Area of an aoe only matters when you cant pack your enemies into the space where it will hit. It doesn't matter if ignite or burn has a small radius if you can fit everyone in it before you fire.Quote:I just want to know one thing, how did you in one comment here go from saying you wanted to compare fire vs spines, then by the end said we should only compare blaster aoe to blaster aoe?
Let me make this clear, Range is not an advantage unless you can use it to hit the enemy and they can't hit you from the same distance. When this happens you can apply maneuver tactics to stop them from hitting you and you gain an advantage. If you can't all you are doing is trading punches at a distance.Quote:As for the middle of it, as GP said, we do outrange scrappers, something that is still being ignored. Just saying we don't outrange mobs doesn't make his point any less valid.
Everything you have said in this post is opinion. What is more you haven't even presented the parameters on when you expect your examples to succeed or fail. As far as I can tell in every scenario you have presented you would be better off hoverblasting and having the spawn congeal at the point directly below. It would still be considerably less efficient than the tactics available to melee ATs but it would be faster than pulling.Quote:Again, and I can't stress this enough, opinion does not equal fact, and spreadsheet does not equal in game knowledge. You can say it's all the same if you want, but how bout a real example to prove it true? I'd be more inclined to maybe agree if you could provide one. -
Here you go. Softcapped to smash and lethal, hasten is about 12 seconds out from permanent, should give you very good mid range performance.
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Quote:Given that no one is considering the blaster's minimal mezz protection and the effect it has on damage output, the scrapper pulls further ahead the more realistic the scenario is.Originally Posted by Dragonkat
Y
#1 People really need to stop treating this like a math exam again, whether your pro or con on the blasters = broken somehow argument. Comparing Fire and Spines for example. It's an apple and oranges deal because it doesn't put the numbers in the context of actual in game experience or different power choices. Against a static practice dummy (Or rikti pylon if you want to go that extreme, though I think it's stupid to do so) Obviously a lot of blast sets look weak on paper compared to a few melee counterparts DPS wise. But this assumes perfect DPS, max targets, and perfect setups, and how often do we actually see that inside the game vs a spreadsheet? Also if damage was the only factor devices would be the worst set on the planet, when any smart blaster who has played it can tell you that's anything but the truth.
Scrappers don't have secondary effects ? If you wan't to make the comparison you need to compare to other primary damage dealing ATs. Just going back to the spines vs fire, fires secondary effect is extra damage, spines secondary effects are immobilization and -recharge -movement speed.Quote:That's #2 A good chunk of this thread probably is based on the faulty premise that damage and only damage seems to matter, when blasters soloed or team bring a lot more mitigation through pri and sec both. Unlike a lot of the Primary vs Primary arguments in the thread. Which only seem to focus on the damage aspects of powers, not the others in our powersets, and never the secondary effects (negligible yes compared to defs, but we still have them, just ask sonic)
I stated in the comparison I had picked high end AoE sets to compare, but most blaster AoE is damage is about on the same model with the exception of the rain powers.Quote:Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Oy. Seriously? Yes, Scrappers can do damage. If they couldn't, they'd rightly argue why they didn't have more mitigation out of the box like a Tanker or even a Brute.
That little comparison between Fire and Spines was rather cherry picked, too. Not every Blast set has as much AOE as Fire, but most of them are pretty good, and not THAT far from what Fire can do. Spines is pretty up there for AOE when it comes to Scrappers... most Scrapper sets don't even come close to it: especially for range. Which is actually pretty important. Most Scrappers can't attack things from the range that Blasters have, and you can't ignore it when comparing the two.
Because of that range, they don't really have to worry too much about where mobs are in a group, especially when compared to Melee characters (and it's far easier to move around a mob that you are not inside, than when you are out of it). Having a large cone or AOE to work with is a large boon when it comes to pure damage output. You hit more stuff and don't have to work hard at it. A Fire Blaster has none of the issues even a Spines Scrapper would have with hitting lot's of stuff.
The ability to attack at range is not as large a matter as you would think. Ranged classes in this game don't in general outrange their opponents.
The AoE area is also only relevant in comparing blaster AoE vs Blaster AoE. Blasters have to deal with spread spawns scrappers can easily concentrate them.
Then they should be doing more for the team, be it total damage output, AoE damage or other. If by sick damage, you mean about the same as other ATs do well yes.Quote:Can Scrappers survive things Blasters can't? Sure. But that's an overall design decision: Scrappers are great soloers, while Blasters are more team oriented (that's not a "red herring" as you called it, that's design). I'm not sure what all you and others are arguing that needs to change for Blasters, but they already do sick amounts of damage and do that very well. The developers aren't likely to change that setup, because it works well.
If we are making the classic CoX blunder, if you read Positron's blog on FotMs his position was you shouldn't have things that you would be crazy to take or not to take. This was also the rationale for the Brute nerf.Quote:I seriously have to wonder if people are making the classic CoX blunder with this. You don't need any one AT to accomplish anything, so they think overlap between ATs is a problem. It isn't. If you need damage on a team, you can grab a Blaster or a Scrapper, or even most of the ATs in the game. That's not really a problem, but how the game works. I'd rather that than have to find the holy trinity of ATs to accomplish anything in game.
Stop trying to create problems where none exist. Find sets that need help, sure, but don't make out that the Blaster AT is in need of help. I can't even believe this discussion is going on for so long. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Frogfather
Why do we always look at these things from the demand side...? Makes no sense. I am not an economist, nor do I play one on TV....but it would seem to me for every person shocked and dismayed about the NMI prices there was one who supplied it that said "Holy crap that sold for how much" during Goats shenanigans. Probably more than one if he was deleting faster than supply was coming in.
Truth be told, Im guessing Nethergoat made more people smile than cringe during his manipulations. And that should stick nicely in his craw.
Geez dude, comparing a want item in a video game to a need item for simple human survival (albeit in a temporary situation) is downright disingenous that does more harm to your position than good.
Its exactly the same principle. The guy selling flashlights has other things he can be doing. I live in a state that has antigouging laws that go into effect after natural disasters, hurricanes in particular. All they do is insure that additional supply of needed commodities is unavailable, and that the major suppliers get to work at their own pace.
The conclusion you make about more people being satisfied by this than upset seems a little off. It's likely that for every item sold at the inflated price there were several people that tried to buy and went away discouraged. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Barata
It took pages of discussion to finally get to why some people think blasters are "broken". They set their difficulty to +2 or +3 mobs for an 8-man team, and can't run a mission solo. That's very different from being "broken". For one thing, when you're solo, you don't have to set your difficulty that high. You're basically saying "if I set the difficulty higher than what my character can handle, I do badly". Well, don't set it that high. You're solo. You have that option. If you're on a team, it doesn't matter what the difficulty is because you have other characters grabbing aggro and debuffing mobs and buffing you up. If tanks and scrappers are able to solo the highest-difficulty content meant for the largest teams, then it doesn't mean that it's the standard for all characters. It more likely means that the game is "broken" because some archetypes are too powerful to have any significant challenge regardless of difficulty level.Quote:Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
QFT. Pretty much says what I think. Blasters can solo well, and add a lot to teams. I'll take ranged damage over melee damage any day... if I was a min/maxxer. As it is, I like all ATs just fine on my teams.
Every character is going to be different, too. Some can handle more than others, and the definition of being able to solo for the devs is still the default that we get with a new character, or when you're set at +0/x0. If you're doing more than that, great. If you can't do more than that, you're not necessarily broken, though you can argue if such a character is too team-oriented.
In this context Broken= Out of balance and in need of rebalancing. If you thought rebalancing the brute vs the tanker and scrapper was needed then blaster rebalancing is much more needed.
I like my blasters, but when it comes down to where to put inf, time and effort into developing a character, its a no brainer.
Blasters being more team oriented is a bit of a red herring. The idea seems to come from the idea that blasters are the kings of AoE damage output which is as often not the case as it is the case. Most of the blaster primary sets have 3 AoEs one of which is the crashing nuke. AR is the exception in that it has 4 or 5 depending on how you count ignite.
You can't compare melee "set x" to blast "set x", but if you look at the AoE heavy melee sets to the AoE heavy blast sets, The melee sets do very well.
Take a look at fire blast vs spines. These are the classic heavy hitters for their respective ATs.
Fire Blast
Fire Ball 78.8 Damage, 16s recharge, 16 targets
Fire Breath 109.8 Damage 16s Recharge, 10 targets.
Spines
Spine burst 82 damage , 16s recharge, 10 targets
Ripper 167 damage, 11s recharge, 7 targets
Throw Spinse 100 damage, 12s recharge, 10 targets
The only blaster sets that actually pull ahead are those with a mini nuke , AR or Archery specifically, sorry DP too slow, too little damage. Even then they need the nuke on high recharge.
Blasters make up some of the difference with Aim for sets that do have it but its pretty sad when an AT that is defined as the glass cannon, has so much glass and so little cannon. -
Quote:I believe I said devices was about the only set where redraw is not an issue. " I think devices is the only set where you could begin to say redraw isn't problematic"Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Not sure what confused you. I mentioned most of Devices are toggles, so they're "fire and forget." The rest are best used before combat, as Trip Mines, Gun Drone, Smoke Grenade, etc., are a bit hard to set up mid combat. Even Cal trops is going to help more before combat. So you shouldn't have many redraw problems... especially if it bugs you.
And really, other sets are going to work better in a chain anyway, as I mentioned with Energy Melee. Especially (again) if you don't like redraw.
Even, it is still a bit problematic if you need to immobilize enemies that are trying to close to melee range.
Quote:Originally Posted by Roderick
I'm Pistols/Energy and I can assure you, redraw isn't an issue at all.
If you're randomly shifting between blasts and punches, then yes, I can see where redraw would start to cause an issue, but I can't think of an instance where that would be an issue.
When solo, I target an enemy in the back of the group, move so that at least one other enemy blocks him, Piercing Rounds, Rain of Bullets, and then maybe use one or two single target blasts to finish the group. When I miss too many times, something may get in my face. If that happens, I Power Thrust him away, pull out the guns while he's still in the air, and resume shooting.
When on a team, I use similar tactics, but I don't line up PR as carefully, and I use the two AoEs while running in. Once in melee range, I hit Hail of Bullets, and back up, firing ranged attacks at the same time. If something gets in my face, a one-two punch from Bone Smasher and Energy Punch will usually finish it off, and if not, Power Thrust sends it away and the guns come back out. When I get a couple more levels, I'll add a Total Focus to Bosses that get too close.
I can't speak for all other secondaries, but I'm pretty sure that any except Devices could easily run a similar strategy, though Fire and Ice would lack the Knockback option, and Electric only has a Chance to KB, not a guarantee.
Like Grey Pilgrim said, redraw is nowhere near as bad for a blaster as it is for a melee character, because the Blaster is usually only using their Primary or their Secondary at any given time, while the melee character is always using both.
DP/EM vs Any Non Weapon Primary/EM
BU->Redraw->Weapon fire
Boost range, power boost, conserve power all incur the weapon redraw penaly.
The case with any other secondary.
Using the ranged immobs, any of the attacks or utility powers incur the redraw penalty.
Subdual, Chillblain, Electric Fence, Ring of fire, burn, shiver, ice sword etc all incur the penalty
Just about everything in the Ancillary or Patron pools also incurs the redraw penalty.
In the example used of having enemies close to within melee range, as long as you have only one the redraw is not an issue, the second there is more than one , you have to deal with redraw to use your primary. -
Quote:That was the point, well not the aoe output part, peak vs peakOriginally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
You can't use those threads (you actually linked the same one twice) to discuss overall output. They are ONLY for top end sustained damage against hard targets like AVs and Pylons and completely ignore aoe output.
. The graph was also meant for the sets that maintain more constant damage buffs, AAO, Soul Drain, Blinding Feint, Follow Up, sets with powers like build up really tilt to the scrapper. You get a chart like the one below.
= Scrapper set with build up reflects higher scrapper damage modCode:| ===== ====== | ++ ++ | ++ * ++ * |----------------------------------- | *+ * | *+ +* * * | =*+=====* * | +* + * | * + * * | * | * | * | * |* ___________________________________________ Time
+ Brute Set with build up reflects lower brute damage mod
Both are not to scale in any way shape or form.
For the scrapper sets with build up they are even better off in the team situation because they can have their buffs up at the beginning of the fight. This goes to the AoE question as well. In the team situation your aoes contribute the most damage when all the spawn is there. so being able to have maximum damage at the beginning of the fight maximizes total damage.
You can see how this works if you consider how you would play a scrapper on a team leaping into a spawn. For the sake of argument, take a dark/ dark. You are going to want to leap in a spawn hit your soul drain as both an aoe attack and a damage boost. At that point the scrapper is at their peak damage then they can fire off a fire ball or their other AOEs. The brute hasn't generated fury when he fires off soul drain he takes a hit to the damage his SD does and he still won't have a head of steam when if he follows up with fireball.
It gets even worse with something like broadsword, where you can do Build up->Whirling Sword->FireBall->Whirling Sword all in the build up window if you have about 80% global recharge.
You would have to go over each powerset against each other to be certain, about aoe and really its a heck of a lot more than I want to do just to debate weather a graph that was meant to be illustrative has a line one tick to high or one tick to low. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
If you don't like redraw, just mind when you would use the powers. Most of devices powers, for instance, are fire and forget or used before combat, minimizing redraw in combat. Even with Energy Melee, only use or switch to your melee attacks when you have a last mob or two up close to deal with. This means you don't have to redraw until you get to the next mob.
Really, redraw shouldn't be that big a deal on a Blaster... it's a much bigger deal on a Scrapper with a weapon set paired with Regen, when you probably will need to use your secondary more in combat, interspersed with your attacks.
Ehh ? I think devices is the only set where you could begin to say redraw isn't problematic and then only if you don't use the immob grenade and caltrops before the action starts. -
Quote:Here are the threads to debate the height of the scrapper line.Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Well, I think your Scrapper line is too high. Solo, Brute damage equalizes to Scrappers at 60% Fury. So it was more like this:
* brute damageCode:Fury Damage 85% | * * 75% | * * * * 65% |----------------------------------- 55% | * * * * 45% | * * * * 35% | * * 25% | * 15% | * 05% |* ___________________________________________ Time
- scrapper damage
That's being generous, I doubt Fury would fall as low as 35% between spawns for an experienced, IO'ed out Brute, but I did see behavior like that on my own, lower level Brutes.
With the changes to Fury, my experience is that it has become this:
The rise is faster, and the fluctuation is closer to the 60% baseline comparison for the Scrapper. However, again for the high end Brute the chart above would look more like rising to 85% and staying there. Very rarely if ever would the line drop below that. With the current version, it's still possible to hit 75% and stay there, but you're closer to the Scrapper.Code:Fury Damage 75% | * * * * 65% |--------------------------------- 55% | * * * * * * 45% | * * * 35% | * 25% | * 15% | * 05% | * ___________________________________________ Time
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...hlight=results
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...hlight=results
75% fury gives a 3.13% better performance on the best attack chains. That is about 1/3 of my graphs vertical ticks. If you crank it up to 85% it jumps to 9% and change better damage which still isn't a full tick on that graph. On your graph the vertical ticks represent 11% of the total and you have the scrapper damage 3 full ticks or 33% below the brute peak. -
Its really a question of powersets and AT not just AT.
Take Dark/Dark vs even con enemies with no special resistances.
The defender has more -To Hit, More heals and - Resistance than the corruptor. The corruptor has scourge and a variable amount more damage.
Now if you go to Ice/Dark corruptors and Dark/Ice defenders the big attacks Ice Storm, Blizzard have the same base damage because they are on the blaster scale, so it becomes a toss up of scourge vs a 30% damage buff when solo.
If you are thinking of taking any kind of defensive set over debuff the defender really shines because of the way the softcap works. Even small improvements to the defense buffs translate into large improvements in mitigation. -
It really depends on the brute. If you had a brute that could generate fury quickly and you were able to generate fury and manage your insps to get your total damage buff up you are hurt by this. It definitely is a nerf to the top end brute performance, its also an out and out nerf to the faster less mitigating brute sets.
If you were unable to hit high levels of fury on your brute, and or your damage cap, its a buff.
@ those that say it was for balance, well maybe for perceived balance.
Code:* represents brute damage as a function of time pre changeDamage | * * |----------------------------------- | * * | * * * * | * * * * | * * | * * * | * | * | * | * |* ___________________________________________ Time
- scrapper damage as a function of time pre change.
Brutes were able to peak above scrappers in the old system but they paid for it by spending most of their time below the scrapper output and being marginalized on faster moving teams.
Now that peak is somewhere below the scrapper line, the people saying three percent are being overly broad as it definitely varies by powerset. The difference between the peak and the trough is less pronounced. Once again it varies by powerset. -
Tickets ?
If you feel its to expensive you have tickets, if the price isn't high enough to make it worthwhile to use tickets its obviously not too expensive. -
Quote:Actually merits, tickets, HVMS are the repair as they let you get most anything in the gameOriginally Posted by Hyperstrike
Perhaps. But, since no attempt has been made to "repair" the situation (indeed, with the ability to bid on stacks of ANYTHING now, they've pretty much busted the market wide open for this behavior) the devs have let us know that this is WAI.
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Pve only reason to take the proc is to complete the set
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Quote:If you are adding -resistance you are adding to the total damage, if you haven't hit the cap on +damage the +damage is X8. Once you are at the point where spawns are going down quickly the key factor becomes how much you can divide up the team to accomplish things in parallel rather than serial.Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
No, this is not the case in most circumstances. I've ran a number of all-Defender TF's, and while they are great fun and can steamroll everything in their path, adding even one blaster to the team amps up the damage output to incredible levels, when combined with all the -res and +dam the defenders provide. The speed difference between a team of 8 defenders and 7 defenders + 1 blaster is huge.
A damage capped defender does barely more damage than a completely un-buffed blaster. Defender ranged damage scale is 0.65. Blaster is 1.125 for ranged damage. Defender damage bonus caps at 300% vs. 400% for blasters.
If you are at the damage cap, and have the resistance of whatever you are facing floored, and have the teams defense covered adding a blaster would be the preferred choice. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Airhammer
My issue is that EVERY AT can bring value to a team and IMO it is unfortunate that some will throw away the contribution a well played blaster will bring to a team based on some number crunching, misgivings, trepidation and misinformation regarding the Blaster AT.
Every AT brings something. Some just bring more than others.
I do admire the changeup, going from Blasters are a more team oriented AT , then to it doesn't matter what you bring to a team is pretty impressive. -
Quote:Originally Posted by m3lon
No, that's exactly wrong. Being able to solo is fine in the realm of soloing but when your main contribution to the team is being able to do it without them you're not being as helpful as the guy who can help the team do it better. Simple example, compare a blaster teamed with a bubbler to a scrapper with bubbler. The scrapper goes about on his normal routine except invincibler with a comrade helping out is damage a bit. The blaster benefits from the buffs becoming invincible and can use his powers to full affect, which would mean that the blaster is out damaging the scrapper and the survivability difference has gone away.
In the solo world the Scrapper's advantage is huge since they can focus entirely on their offense. In the teaming world the blaster's survivability disadvantage is much less meaningful, because they can easily be made survivable with team play.
To put it more blatantly in terms of overall performance; Blasters are on the weaker scale of things solo, but with team play they're amazing. Scrappers have a stronger baseline solo, but don't become amazing with good team play.
@Seebs
Every RPG ever is probably a tiny bit hyperbolic, but its been my experience that with melee DPS it's easy to become survivable enough to solo a few things that are bigger than you while still having the dps to do it quickly. But to justify this in such general terms I'd be using such broad strokes I could paint a barn in to swipes, so I'll end with this: melee healers ftw!
If you are going to build teams that will take something to incredible you are in most cases better off adding another defender of some kind than either a defender or a blaster. In the case of amped to awesome by buffs the scrapper still wins out as that AT allows the team to divide up more than adding a blaster would.