Zen_Concern

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I know you guys know there is a middle ground between the idiots on both sides of this issue. Too many people find it too easy to just pretend the people you're arguing with are a bunch of morons you should just be taken out and shot.


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I know there is a middle ground. I went out and found it months ago. However, there are some people that will never be happy with a middle ground. There are some melee players that are not interested in 50/50 battles. Am I supposed to just ignore thier happy pants dance? I guess I will, I don't need to go out of my way to prove that things are not balanced. I can just wait for the PvP crowd to do it for me.

Then of course there are the developers who decided that the best way to find the middle ground is not to design a new mechanic that would be more fun, but to instead overnerf and use datamining to keep the same mechanic but make it more palatable for the melee classes after they buff it.

Which is what really makes me upset, this entire nerf is nothing more than a datamining session by the developers and were the guinnea pigs.

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1. PvP is not built around 1v1 battles, so your blaster will have a good number of opportunities to defeat Melee types (mostly Scrappers and Brutes) with the right buffs/debuffs from your teammates.


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Yes, why do melee players forget that if they have the same buffs that they will stomp a blaster into squishy paste? I take those buffs with my Brute and stomp blasters whenever I go to PvP, what is stopping the rest of the melee players out there?

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2. YOU decided to make your blaster to go into melee. YOU had choices among your powers and decided, I suppose, to focus on picking more from your secondary powers than your primary powers, which are probably mostly made up of range attacks.


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Blaster primary attacks are not balanced the same way that melee primary attacks are. Most of the blaster primary sets do not have a ranged attack chain. That is ignoreing how easy it is to catch a blaster attacking from range.


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Now, there is this little nice tool call a respec, which I think we all are getting once i7 goes live.

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There is a nice little phrase "Talking out of your [censored]" that applies to your advice.

The link you posted Cuppa seems to be broken.

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Because we have been told over and over and over and over and over and over and over that this is not balanced for one-v-one. By definition, that means that one-v-one is imbalanced for some pair-offs. I don't remember anyone saying that Blasters had a special place as an AT that could take on just enyone else and win.


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It would be really nice if melee remembered that they need a team too. Even now in SC it is incredibly easy to get kills with a BRUTE if you have a team behind you. A couple of corruptors and toggle drops are laughable since the blaster that attacked you in melee is dead before he figures out why your not.

Thats okay though, just keep telling blasters to get a team. Remember when Tanks got extra damage? Remember when they took away the lack of mobility? There is always a flip side. Enjoy being overpowered while you can, cry when the other shoe drops like melee always does.

[/ QUOTE ]I was going to respond to this, but after reading this and your posts on the thread on the Blaster boards about the same topic, its pretty obvious you have some kind of hate-on for folks who play Scrapper and Tanks.

In that case, I'm just gonna ignore you and talk to the resonable folks about the subject.

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I used to be pretty reasonable on this subject, back when it was being discussed on the Tanker forums. Even laid out a compromise that would help every AT with EVERY form of toggle dropping. Everyone could pretty much deal with it since it removed the kludgy mechanic of toggle drops. It still kept the balance level where it is now.

However, we now get all these melee palyers gleefully hopping up and down, now that the toggle drops have been removed. Why? They know they are overpowered, they get to have their cake and eat it too. They don't have to compromise, they don't need a weakness. What do they care about the blasters? Very little, except for a few that realize that what we have now is not balanced in the slightest. Although some of the suggestions don't even come close to addressing the level of balance created by toggle droppers.

They are focusing too much on blasters and not creating a mechanic that benefits EVERYONE that had toggle droppers. The game doesn't revolve around blasters being able to toggle drop after all.

Something else as well.

Emp Arrow may be bugged on Live, if anyone can test it on test it would be appreciated. On live I am having Freak Tankers in missions regen DOUBLE what they normaly do when useing their Dull Pain ability while they are under the effects of Emp Arrow.

If anyone can confirm that this is fixed in I7, that would be nice.

At level 33 a Freak Tank should not be healing 478 HP (it was close to 500, it may not have been exactly 478).

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Because we have been told over and over and over and over and over and over and over that this is not balanced for one-v-one. By definition, that means that one-v-one is imbalanced for some pair-offs. I don't remember anyone saying that Blasters had a special place as an AT that could take on just enyone else and win.


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It would be really nice if melee remembered that they need a team too. Even now in SC it is incredibly easy to get kills with a BRUTE if you have a team behind you. A couple of corruptors and toggle drops are laughable since the blaster that attacked you in melee is dead before he figures out why your not.

Thats okay though, just keep telling blasters to get a team. Remember when Tanks got extra damage? Remember when they took away the lack of mobility? There is always a flip side. Enjoy being overpowered while you can, cry when the other shoe drops like melee always does.

You dismissed my comment that EMP had -regen?

/e hangs head

Why? Have I not provided pretty reasonable and correct evaluations in the past?

E tu Brute?
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Theatrics aside, you can see the -regen on live if you want. It has always had it.

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Ever stop to think WHY you haven't seen too many Tanks in Arena and in PvP????????????


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Honestly, it is because alot of tanks are used to playing in PvE. There are good PvP tanks playing in PvP now. Not everyone is a good PvP player and I think some of the people that play Tanks are a little upset about it. They did whine their way to victory though.

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i heard it was like 2.7 end per sec

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That has got to be wrong. It would be worse than Icecles.

Just to note, if you don't have hamidon enhancements or happen to have Power Build-up it is more like 1/4 end drain. The power does have -regen, but no -recovery that I have seen.

Having Hammi enhancements does kinda spoil the experience. Kinda like a Post SO TA comparing himself to a TO TA. Big world of difference if you know what I mean.

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That is not all I have to say about Acid Arrow. Some sets have defense against AoE and ranged attacks, it just so happens that those are the sets that we actually need this arrow to hit. Yet, they defend against our debuff before it even applies. If you choose not to increase the AoE, give the Arrow negative regen, then it needs to be auto-hit in PvP and PvP.

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An autohitting unresistable defense debuff that sticks to the target and can't be escaped or detoggled? Err, no. Defense debuffs can be autohitting, and they can stick and be unescapable, but not both. Not for any cost, value, mechanic, or crash would I think that was balanced. If you want an unresistable, undefendable, inescapable defense-lowering capability, run tactics. Practically everyone else does, and I believe it has just about as strong a defense countering effect as Acid Arrow. Which actually says something interesting about Acid Arrow, Tactics, and Defense in PvP, all at once.

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Remember the debuff is only not resistable if you are hit by a defender. Defenders should get something shouldn't they?

Remember, slows are controlls as of this moment. Which means that controllers actually have better results with the same power compared to a defender. That makes more things in the set about controll than debuffing. Emp Arrow is really just a big AoE hold with a long recharge. Great for the controller that wants a second AoE hold to use after he uses the other AoE hold in his primary.

So you have Entangle, Glue Arrow, Ice Arrow, and Emp Arrow being mainly about controll. Oil Slick is basicaly controll as well since it is a knockdown power similar to Ice Slick. Again, more controll for the controller that wants controll.

That is a 5 - 4 count by my books.

Why did controllers get this set? Were the devs on crack or will we be getting split numbers on this similar to the attack powers in CoV that have the same name but have different strengths.

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for the record, i think they do throughly test all of this stuff.

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EF nerf, Regen nerf, I could go on but those two I know you and many others remember.

I know they test things, that doesn't mean they are always testing what we will be playing. If you don't think that their testing other versions of the game results in ideas of how the game works other than how we see it, then I think you are putting your hands over your eyes and praying loudly.

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I strongly object to people calling them incompetent.

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Can I call them out of touch with the reality in which we play at times?

Well, I won't cut and paste but I wanted to note a few things.

Now that the power is auto-hit it will function as a psuedo stealth power and provides defense about on par with Shadow Fall. While it doesn't have the resists, it also doesn't have to have your teammates in range of you either and that is a help. I am fine with the debuff as it is on Flash Arrow now that it is auto-hit. It was one or the other as far as I was concerned.

Entangle Arrow is heading in the right direction, but isn't there yet. This should be equal to Web Grenade at the very least and the time it actually takes for the effect to take effect needs to be looked at. It needs to take effect when it hits, not 2 seconds afterwards. Another possibility is that the debuff stays as is, but the endurance cost increased, recharge increased and the power could be made into an AoE power to syncronize with Glue Arrow. The recharge should allow it to be stacked on itself of course.

Glue Arrow needs to be able to target flying mobs. It would be very nice if this power negated flight. It honestly makes sense for it to negate flight. Relying on the slow animating Entangle may end up being what we have to do.

Poison Gas Arrow is a decent debuff and the increased sleep chance is a big help. I have no problems with this power. If you don't give -regen to Acid Arrow this would be a good spot to put it.

Acid Arrow needs to have either it's AoE size increased or it needs to get an additional debuff effect and honestly, the debuff would need to be -regen. For AV fights and in PvP we need the ability to debuff regen and we need it a hell of alot sooner than Warburg. Especially with the new HP of AVs and EBs. EMP Arrow doesn't last long enough in these fights to help and it begs to question why a debuff only set is worse than every other set when it comes to helping out by debuffing the big bad monster.

That is not all I have to say about Acid Arrow. Some sets have defense against AoE and ranged attacks, it just so happens that those are the sets that we actually need this arrow to hit. Yet, they defend against our debuff before it even applies. If you choose not to increase the AoE, give the Arrow negative regen, then it needs to be auto-hit in PvP and PvP.

Disruption Arrow should actually interrupt powers that can be interrupted. Again, this comes from the issue of this power being static and being worse than every other -res static power in the game. Yet, this set is all about debuffs and it is worse at debuffing than others. If your not seeing what we are complaining about, let us know and we will try and go into more detail about why this set needs help.

Oil Slick. The experiment is over. We would like to play the game now without wondering if you guys will ever get the code right. Simply have this power light after casting. Be done with it and let us have some fun. If you want to tinker to get the power to work by shooting at it then do it on your private servers and let us have fun on the live servers. That would also take care of the issue of having two secondary sets in the defender sets that cannot light the Oil Slick.

EMP Arrow, it's a hold that has a recharge time that is so long, I hesitate to use it at times. Sad, but I understand why the recharge is so long. I don't understand why the AoE has to be so small though. It would be nice if we could again have a larger AoE.

I skipped over Ice arrow because if there is one arrow that I hate having to take, it is this one. I hate to say this but the slow needs to last longer.

Okay, that is similar to what I have said before. I also need to add as I have before that if controllers and MMs are keeping you from balancing this set and implimenting some of our suggestions then just leave them out of the equation or take the set away from those two ATs. Defenders would like to be the kings of debuffing rather than have to pass it off to controllers.

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even if you dont have stuns how long can i possibly last against blaster attacks without my shields up?


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Long enough to kill them, especially in a team environment. PvP /= 1v1.

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These posted numbers make me extremely happy as a regular PVP'er. ED is the exact reason why toggle dropping wasn't necessary to the degree it currently exists in. Damn straight.

Yes maybe a few powers could be raised slightly, I'll give you that. But I've got no problem with these numbers staying as they are.

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I am honestly not surprised that Melee PvPers are happy about this change. It once again gives them the solid advantage in PvP. No, I have my Brute in PvP now and it is an even fight between myself and an Ice/EM blaster. After this change? Well, I guess I'll rack up another 400 rep point badge even faster with my Brute now. There isn't much blasters are going to be doing to me. I am somewhat upset that the challenge is being taken out of playing a melee character, but I guess most people that pick a melee character are not looking to play on a balanced playing field anyway. Hell, they had the advantage BEFORE the toggle drops were nerfed, now the advantage is so clear even an idiot can't fail to benefit. Which is what the whiners want of course.

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Did you keep them on Definsive/Follow the whole time or did you ever use Attack My Target or somesuch to change their stance or disposition?

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Good question! There were times when my henchmen stopped attacking because their target was held for a long amount of time, they would actually stop and then come back to me or if I got hit from another target, they would go and attack it. Staying in defensive stance, I would use attack my target if I wanted them to kill something, like say a Spec-Op longbow. Can't allow those buggers to live, but as soon as they started attacking the spec-op I would switch them back to follow, since the long bow was attacking them, they would back off then immediately attack her when she attacked them.

It basicaly turned into a game to get agro. I am doing this now, without the body guard feature which meant when I did grab agro, it hurt. After the body guard feature comes out, I am going to be grabbing agro like crazy.

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In this game, a /NRG blapper can consistently knock out a brute in two seconds flat, every time.

"Preposterous, you're exagerating immensely." -- Bluntzman

"I'm afraid I have to concur with Bluntzman -- I'm not sure I've seen an Eng Blapper two-shot a Brute, at least not without Insps or Con/Def buffs/debuffs helping." -- Flaming1

I said two -seconds- guys, not two shots. And I stand by it. Energy blapper hits Aim, BU and superspeeds in with his first shot queued up, gets a second one in while his opponent fights to get a target lock... three seconds on the outside unless the brute tries to run.

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Considering that the animations on every blaster secondary is 1 second or more, it was definately more than two seconds since a blaster is not going to two shot a brute with Aim and Build-up with two attacks in two seconds. 3 seconds would be a bare minimum if they were buffed out to the damage cap. Since most blasters are not at the damage cap, it is probably closer to 5 seconds.

From my own experience playing on both sides of the equation, it really usually is 5 seconds for one of the sides to fall. It may be the brute, it may be the blaster. Why the hell would a brute run? He'll only die tired if he does that. Although, avoiding the blaster while he is buffed with Aim and Build-up is a smart idea, but once they are there in melee begging to be smashed, smash em and be done with it.

I take back my concerns about this change. This is going to really help MMs. I just ran around with my Ninjas on defense and follow mode and did a couple of relentless missions. With this change, it will just get easier.

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I think the point was that it's much easier now to take down all the Henchman, leaving the MM WITHOUT Bodyguard to take the full damage from the next attack.

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Anyone who could do that could have one or two shotted the MM without the bodyguard feature anyway.

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So the net result of this change is...?

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The result of the change is that moderate AoE that wouldn't kill the MM or his pets just became killer to the MM pets.

Fireball, say hello to the mm with the pets around him.

MM, say goodbye to all your pets from one fireball.

The pets take the AoE from the fireball AND they take the bodygaurd damage.

Not to mention, but this is really not going to help my Melee MM in PvP. Not one bit. Maybe if they fixed Ninja to never use their ranged weapons except when they cannot path to the enemy it may help. It is not a net loss, but it is not some overpowered ability like Castle suggested it was. For myself it is a wash.

Well this is one way to make trick arrow look better. Expect to see to-hit buffs nerfed to make Trick Arrow even better. Wait, that happened.

Oh snap! Heals are probably next! DOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!!!!!

All joking aside, this does have a rather unpleasent side effect in PvE that makes storm harder to use now. Storm always had the ability to create chaos but Hurricane was a toll that good stormers could use to mitigate the chaos.

From checking it out myself, it seems as if the ability of a player to play smart and use their powers to compliment their other powers has been nerfed indirectly by this change to Hurricane. The loss of positioning power means that mobs can frequently run by a Stormer only to be repelled at the wrong time and the stormer can end up scattering mobs worse than his own power.

For small groups, this doesn't seem to be a problem, but when there are large groups of enemy and your own group is spreading out the agro, it can cause alot of problems.

While the developers may have felt that it was necessary to change this power, I feel they have down a disservice to the defender community. Controllers are not as hard hit by this as defenders are, and this change just put storm controllers even further ahead of storm defenders when it comes to the ability to use storm powers to maximum effect.

That is the other side effect of this change.

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People people... why scream nerf... scream buff. Perhaps it isnt EM that is overpowered but the other sets underpowered?

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it just seems more likely that 1 set is overpowered rather than 3 being underpowered IMHO.

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Considering that the developers have already acknowledged that the other sets are underperforming, I disagree.

I know I am in the minority but I think the balance achieved by toggle dropping is fine as it is currently. No need to reduce toggle dropping although the game mechanic could be made more fun for all parties.

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Exactly. The lack of a penalty for death makes the K-D ratio a bad way to balance sets. I think a better judge would be the number of kill per hour.

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How about Bounty/Reputation per hour instead? ...Then divide that by # of deaths.

My Scrapper for instance can walk into Sirens and join a team and walk out with +25 Rep in half an hour and have 1-3 deaths. My Dom might end up on a Stalker-heavy team meanwhile and get +30 rep, but die 40 times getting it.

...atleast that's been MY experience.

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Because Bounty/Rep are simply surrogates for Kills -- a near-linear relationship, by my offhand estimate.

It still doesn't address the rather excellent point that rate of killing is not revealed by a raw killcount.

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I think he was getting at bounty and rep being shared by a team and then comparing how many times the ATs died. That is different from kills which are not shared by teams.

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Not really, the synergy between controller primary sets and their secondary allows them to use the defender Primary powers as secondary powers to greater effect.

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I remain unconvinced this is globally true.

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Grave/Storm for instance. AoE immobilize + Snow Storm. Add Freezing Rain. The slow from the immobilize + the slow from the storm + the slow from freezing rain. Even if the target is not immobilized, they are at the slow cap because all three powers produce a slow effect. Ice/Storm is even better since all three of their powers would also give -recharge.

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Remember that a stormie can hit the Slow cap with Snowstorm alone, if slotted correctly. With fewer slots on the Defender, due to the relative Defender versus Controller debuff scale.

The AoE immobs available to Controllers, such as those in Gravity and Fire do represent synergies with the shared powersets -- that point, I defer -- but it's substantially mitigated by the increase to the repops of those AoE effects in I5.

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You can go down the line and see how controllers are MUCH more dangerous to the opposing team, yet are still pursued less than the defenders. The reason is that the defender has the least defense for himself and is an easier target which means you can get a kill count faster. Thats it.

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You'll note that the issue I take is with the claim that Defenders are without substantive deterrent. That's untrue. They may have less than Controllers, but that doesn't mitigate the fallaciousness of the prior claim.

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Point One: Controllers actually slow better than defenders because slow is considered a controll not a debuff as many thought it was. So in the above examples that I gave with a controller useing storm and his primary to create a synergy, remember that the controller is flat out better regardless of the synergy. The synergy is a nice fat bonus.

Point Two: I never said that defenders were without deterants, I simply said that they had less than a controller. Which is true. Due to the synergy between their secondary and primary, controllers are more dangerous in PvP than a defender. That is also true. That is before I consider X3 containment.