_Ilr_

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I love this game. Been playing it for a number of months now. I really don't see the balance issues that everyone else seems to claim exist. I think the Devs have done a great job.

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Other than a comment along these lines, I wanted to say GJ to everyone for keeping this thread constructive. The Proof is pretty clear now.

But back to the Balance issues. The Designers see them! ...So there's no reason you shouldn't either. A major part of Issue#3 here since even before issue#2 released was to deal with AT balance. ...Obviously Issue#2 moved the goal posts a little, but Statesman and Geko have talked a lot about major balance renovations in Issue#3 and some of them we got early. I'm saying Balance is not the real bone I'm picking at either because they seem to spontaneously address it fairly often.

So again. I must insist that they're doing just about everything as well as we could hope for. But the one thing they aren't doing is asking us the questions and including US where balance is concerened. I think this thread alone proves that this is really a very good community, especially if you've come from other boards/forums where flaming is the norm. But the issues, solutions, and testing provided by the players here just isn't seeing results and the Devs have not up to this point been giving these opinions the gravity they're worthy of. ...Which is the most unfortunate thing of all because this community CAN be trustworthy enough to work out its differences and help decide what's most fair for everyone who plays. But again, it appears the Devs strive to avoid such inclusion.

Proof is in the Issues:
<ul type="square">[*]Electric was lameish since day one and still is. Many reports even show that AI will ignore Endurance levels, or always cast the most dangerous power FIRST making Endurance drain worthless.[*]Controllers were to "get some loving" but a huge number of posters said the changes were too little, and in one case with PA's was too drastic. As a result their Secondary often times is still the only thing other players look at when considering them for a team...especially if it's ForceFields.[*]Invuln Scrappers can hit the same exact 90% Resist Cap that Tankers can, it just takes more slotting, and in end-game, slotting is basically all you get since new powers only come every 3rd level.[*]The imbalance between Damage and Endurance-Reducers has been a consistant matter-of-fact in all the AT boards and brought up very often but no acknowledgement about it from the Devs was ever posted directly here.[*]Stamina may not be required, IE: I've built a very successful hero without it(even in the Reactor trial I can keep up with everyone and rarely pop CaBs) but any census you take on the live servers will show more than 95% of players over 20 took stamina as if it's a quality of life issue and it DEFINITELY makes the game a lot less challenging for just about any build.[*]The Purple Patch killed the need for Tankers. IE: if you wanted to hunt Purples, you needed a great tanker or two/three mediocre ones. Even though the Devs intend to fix this, people are saying Tanks are not as fun anymore and need to do things better that contribute to the Group's progress, things like higher EXP rates and more damage...But Stateman has basically cancelled the plans he initially adopted from these boards that would have achieved that.[*]Super Reflexes has been buffed some but in comparison to Regen and Invuln, it pales along with DA which is the new "worst secondary". This means that either 2 of the secondaries have always been overpowered or the other two are still underpowered. Meanwhile If you read the Manual that comes with this game on Mob Color coding, and then watch any Reg/Inv scrapper at Mid/Late game it should help you decide which is the case [*] Blaster Secondaries and the playstyle needed to make them succussful is still as common as hen's teeth. Either the vast majority of Blasters are n00bs or the Devs haven't done enough to make MORE of their secondaries play a larger part in how Blasters group and stay alive in a group. Infact it's been a constant complaint on multiple forums here.[*]Being kicked from a TF on the Exemplar system was a horribly planned disaster in the quality of life dept. for anyone who has less than perfect connection or gets saddled to someone else who does, ...which pretty much means ever one of us, but the outpour during it's testing phase and now after has not been addressed by any Devs and no alternatives towards ficing has seen a sliver of light on the Testing room.[*]Chain Mezzing and Alpha Strikes are grossly unfair for any number of reasons and while changes may come for these issues, we're totally in the dark about them and the Devs haven't shown any willingness head in a different direction and they're definitely not asking us for our opinions on them even though it affects us more than anything else at upper levels.

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I agree very much with Tsirin. They have gone to great lengths and I find all of the Forums to be very constructive. And I even believe this Thread is constructive too despite my one nitpick.

He also brings up Positive feedback which is one thing I've never seen in any other company, and by that I mean the Devs being very quick to jump in and accept their Kudos or give credit where it's due. The prospect of game improvement through positive reinforcement is one I admit I totally overlooked despite this unique quality seen in our Devs. ...Intriguing...

OK, I'm totally lost. Maybe, if I try real hard, I can see where your rather lengthy... post... ties in to my original, but just barely. In an attempt to see how it fits, and to re-direct the post back where it was intended, let's look at a couple of things.

You're not reaching for understanding in this statement, you're reaching to label me as incoherrant while what I stated was double-proof read to ensure clarity. Karon is right, you're selling others short as soon as you notice they don't agree with you.

First, there is a difference between being ignored and not being replied to. NCSoft does not use volunteer board monitors. Everyone that reads these boards is paid. They do not use volunteers for liability reasons that I won't go into here, but perhaps you'll take my word for the fact they're very valid.

That's nothing like what I said. I referrenced Blizzard because they would almost NEVER reply on their boards. Yet I could track the nuances and suggestion on the boards that later made it into the game. IE: you could see player feedback was being used even if there was no signs or thumbs-up about it on the boards from the Devs.

They do read these boards, and they take many of the comments to heart and try to incorporate them, or at least look into the feasibility of doing so. Others simply don't work in the grand scheme.

And THIS is exactly how I disagree with your original post. You talked to them about stuff that all of us already know, but you drew from that some foundation that they are listening to us a lot more than we think they are while my observations say the complete opposite. As I said, they're doing every just great except for this. And I'll be glad to elaborate on it again as you seem to have skimmed over it the first time...


They are NOT feigning interest. They are simply NOT wasting valuable time answering a gazillion posts and are directing their resources where everyone that whines calims to want the resources directed. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

..Wasn't saying they should answer everything. At one point they were answering TOO MUCH as I too believe they shouldn't direct that level of Resources towards responding on the boards. But Responding to the boards at all isn't what I'm asking for either. I clearly said that Balance Feedback from the players is being ignored, especially when compared to the volumn of activity and progress in all other areas that Cryptic has with all of their fans and this game.

Everyone can watch huge known Balance issues take a back seat to everything from marketing to unnessesary effects/Aesthetic rewards. Especially on the Test Server where player feedback about difficulty and balance has always been ignored and the patch flys right onto the Live servers complete with borked and underpowered/overpowered gameplay alterations, almost as if no one had said anything at all about it at all. ...But quick perusal of not just the Test Server forum, but AT forums too reveals dozens of threads from concerned players that give a very good picture at where the community stands on them. And then many Imbalances remain on live for an astounding duration even after the few small voices grow into a louder majority of the opinions expressed. And that's exactly why I discredit this "PCC", it deals with everything BUT Balance and Fairness diverting resources away from these issues that the Majority of forum regulars and General/AT-Board posters are more concerned with.


The fact that you admit to having been repeatedly banned in another game should tell you something. Obviously, it doesn't. There are far too many people posting on these boards that believe that they were created on the eighth day and that the universe revolves around them. Hijacking a thread with a rant that has little to do with the OP is typical of these people... and probably explains a lot.

Pot Kettle Black... You talked to the man for a very short time and suddenly you have more insight than all of us? If not, then why did you make this thread?

But unlike the developers, who do consider everything you say, I would have chosen to really ignore you afterward.
Now, can we have the thread back?

No they aren't considering everything and that's exactly why red herring about me hijacking your thread is threatenign to make this into a flame thread. Please tone the arrogance down a notch and face the fact that not everyone finds them as infallible as you. They are great, but they've also earned criticism repeatedly on their Balance Policies.

Yeah this is scary...

I'm glad I'm only in my mid 30's still on my main so I won't be tempted to try one of these Epics. They sound like Bork-Bait if I've ever seen it, and could take a year to balance out.

...Coming from the LineageII Beta, straight to this game, I had EXTREMELY LOW expectations of this Development team simply because their publisher was NCSoft.

Yeah, my bad and I'll Cop to it. I'll also cop to being very impressed by the dedication and communication this Team keeps in step with where the Gamer community is concerned. Nearly all of my negative expectations have vanished and been replaced with ones proudly stating that this is my new favorite Game Studio and I'll be fantasizing about finding employment under it for years to come.

But ONE negative has been reinforced... And that would be Cryptic's "faith in the boards". Basically, we're second/third class citizens here and their datamining PWNZ us. ...Not just most of us, but ALL of us equally. Even on the Blizzard boards, the Head Mod had an INSTA-BAN thing going with me, both ours' favorite RTS game was and probably still is WarII despite hundreds of flashier and addictive titles coming out but we hated eachother somehow. I was banned almost every week and the only thing that kept me posting was my wealth of CD Keys. But even there my ideas were being used, my bug/exploit reports saw priority for their next patches and most importantly I was free to talk about them at length, I asked for information and it usually found me even if only through subterfuge.

Here I've felt completely ignored, all of my questions passed over, and more importantly, the better ideas/requests I see other people post go 99% ignored and the most common reason I ever see a designer intervene is when we apparently misquoted them. I brought the biggest Exploit in months to the attention of a Mod but then found myself threatened with banning for even referring to it a week later like the effort I made for their benefit was instantly forgotten and a policy against it was errected in the middle of the night while we slept. The attitude I've felt presented with is that they're always right, even when they're wrong, and we're only to be talked to when we're wrong and our misinformation must be corrected before it spreads to mass rumor.

Okay to some claims (and I've made a few mistakes too for sure), the poster was way off the mark and nothing justifies their observations, so its a good thing that the devs step in with the semi-hard numbers. But they aren't doing that often enough anymore and the other times it just feels like we're in the GOP spin room and the chorus is blissfully singing denial.

GUYS, if there's a better way to do something, it's going to come from spontaneous inspiration forged by real compramise...which is pretty much the only thing these boards are good for to a developer who realizes that most ppl who come here are Powerleveling whining dorks or blind fanboys following the blind fansites. ..But atleast they're good for something, right? So stop the redicule, yeah, "we know that we ain't s#%t"-NOFX; but atleast see us as more than bug-finding automotons. Quit feigning interest in us with this "PCC" thing that's only been 'all for show' up to this point and include us in the Balance issues because that's exactly why a lot of us are here. ...And SOME of us are even unbiased about the balance issues and just want to contribute any degree of improvement we can possibly help muster, unconditionally, yes definitely a disturbing thought, I agree, but it would sure make us all feel a lot better if Cryptic climbed off that high horse and acted a little more confident in our views on balance too.

I agree, this is an odd place to ask that...

And whatever was causing the Whole-Level-Aggro musta been a real rarity because I never saw it happen.

Little early to say for sure, isn't it??

D00de don't tell me bad news like that. I WANT to group but other ppl slow me down.
I just rolled through 3 missions in an hour here and cleared all mobs in them
WHAT'S MY CONTROLLER DOING WRONG!?

If enhancements are to be dropped Via Risk/Reward model then the Price of Support-AT enhancements like Holds, Heals, and Buff/Debuff enahancements should be lowered further in price AND take over for "Drops" on these very minions and missions that are -1, -2, etc. since the Support Builds weren't made for soloing and were only soloing it b/c a good duo/team wasn't availabale to them at the time.

...Not to mention the Minimum-Level Boss bug such as the "Education Officer", the first Nemesis to show up in a story arc, and the Level 30 Rikti Chief I had to beat in a level 27/28 mission. Bleh... Some people HAVE to outlevel it just to beat those Bosses who DON'T FIT with the level of the mission assigned so Cryptic's argument in that respect is unsubstantiated I'm afriad

Who's Buck and where do I find him to redeem this Coffee offer?

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ok, 5th column on the rise...hmmm.


Just thinkin, the council of war in Treasure Island wasn't a council among the good guys was it? I'm thinkin we are about to get REAMED...

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...Naw, the Reaming won't come until near the end of Issue#3's development when all the rest of the Power-AT builds get a shot of nerfy lovin and won't even be able to Solo 5th column anymore...You'll long for the days of Chain-Mezzing...if they tie you down and ream you properly that is...

...But just be glad this game isn't fashioned after real life because then you might be heading for an even bigger faschist-reaming early-on in the first few days in November.

They're just fundraising for their chosen candidate for the upcoming election.


I won't say which party they're supporting but I don't think an explanation is necessary this year.

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...but along with that, I'm wondering if anyone has ever HAD to access the top Reactor and if I should include that area too?

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Well.. there is a badge up there.

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There is?? Well my SuperSpeeder managed to make it up there and logged out up there (Just Added that secret to the Eastern Side too as "Bonus" for anyone else who wants to get on top of the Reactor). So what feature do I look for to find it?

Thanks a lot guys! Yell if you see any shots ya'd like a better angle on because these shots. I'm also working on the East end this morning...but along with that, I'm wondering if anyone has ever HAD to access the top Reactor and if I should include that area too?


I'll see what I can do and it should be loaded up to here by the mid of the day:
http://iller.protgp.com/Misc/SS-Hell_East.jpg

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East Now available. Upon inspection, it now appears that the East side has the safest way into the reactor albeit a Somewhat longer distance overall

[As extremely exciting and over-the-top as this zone's design is, Sadly, it can also be one of the most frustrating things a player will ever encounter if they lack other travel powers. This is a navigation picture "road map(s)" guide for any players who have no Vertical travel powers.

West half of the Trial Zone here:
http://iller.protgp.com/Misc/SS-Hell_West.jpg

Note: There's more entrances into certain middle-zones but the ones featured here are the closest to the most direct paths in. Also, only fall back on SuperSpeed through T.V. as a last resort. If you're with a team, you may need to convince them to clear some of the final catwalks to make it in safely.

[East half coming soon, may actually a quicker line into the core area...or not, will include that info when it becomes available]

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Let's not put words in my mouth here...a SINGLE electric blaster DOES drain endurance from an AV. BUT definitely not enough to make an impact. All secondary effects against AV's are resisted...it takes several electric blasters to make an appreciable dent in an AV (just like it takes many heroes to bring one down).

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Hmm, I don't think I've ever been in a group with an Electric Blaster, let alone a TF or Story Arc with TWO or more...

Are they hiding somewhere and all you have to do is throw up a signal or something and they'll bound forth to fight the AV? Maybe Elec Blasters are sold in Bottles somewhere and we can just add water like Sea Monkeys? I just know if I was a TF leader my first thoughts would be "Huh, I got a Fire and Energy blaster that WANT to join, but I've already got an Electric Blaster... YEAH, that's the Ticket, I'll just spam for a while and try to get another ELEC blaster or even two! so we can stop SOME of the AV's attack... once we get to him... If we ever get to him ...Dang this Paote that indian sold me is some Craaaazy tasty stuff!"


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not cool. I've never seen devs interact with players like this dev team does. Disrespecting them is seriously uncool. Save the pie for yourself.

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Yeah, but it's not like they don't have a sense of humor either. ...ok maybe Jo doesn't seem to have one, but it shouldn't be Verboten. Heck maybe you're the only one here that doesn't have one. ...in that case.. *PPHHHBBBTTT!*

That's a Resonable explanation.

But I don't know if it fully delineates the difference between an Antagonistic relationship and a Bully-ing one =\

Considering that a Designer's primary job is to devise new ways of challenging the player, they should understand this delicate balance better than any one of us who choose to play as a Villian so I'd really like to see more commentary along that line, especially as to WHY we're at odds with a hero and vise-versa. ...Just because we CAN doesn't seem like a good enough answer to me and most times is precisely the reason that Griefers abound. Shouldn't PvP do more? like fuel the Economic engine, Politics, even the very structure of the world? ...I'd say that stuff contributes the most to deciding the intentions of the PVP community andhow Newbs are recieved into it.

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2) Blasters have the lowest hitpoints (tied, I know).

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I'll have to check when I get home, but I thought hp levels were:

Controller<Blaster/Defender<Scrapper<<Tanker

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Yes that's more accurate. My Scrapper used to play with a Defender who was typically +1 above me and we Duo'd so much that I started noticing we could swap out Agro to either one of us because without buffing eachother, we were able to take the exact same amount of punishment. A Scrapper really has a small portion more HP's than the rest of the ATs except Tanks. The only real difference is self-defense as a secondary. Though most Scrappers go so heavy on their Primaries just like blasters that they can get caught off-guard and die just as quickkly as a blaster. My controller's also grouped with enough Blasters to know they can take a hair bit more damage than I can, I just work on no more than 3 targets at a time to manage my Agro responsibly. Many times infact I have to work overtime just to maintain that agro because Blasters keep taking it away from me with their AoE's and random targeting. Sometimes I can hold the agro because I have higher single-target damage than most 'trollers but as soon as they charge up an AoE with Buildup or something, there's not much I can do to get the agro back.

If Blasters were given any more HP's, they'd have as much as Scrappers. ...that wouldn't quite seem fair to me 0_o ...since those Blasters traded that extra defense for Superior Ranged Damage and reduced endurance use. Go Roll a Defender if you're really serious about playing a Blaster with thicker defenses.

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By the way, couldn't Cyclops just take off his visor and obliterate all of the foes if there isn't any chance of damaging innocents?

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No. His Visor works like a Turnikit prevents bleeding and locks in sustinants. Without his Blasting power locked in by the Visor, he immediately goes from Headache to Migrane, and becomes weak and on the brink of death from pure Exhaustion. I'm not sure but I think it's derivative of some mythological feature where a dininity's soul could escape the body in a destructive and violent "bleeding" of pure light once a mortal wound was made.

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Maybe so Ilhulbert but this is not the military. This is an rpg. The object is to destroy the enemy. In an rpg the guy that kills people is not the support. The guys that keep that guy alive are the support.

The reason that killing elements are support in the military is becuase the object of war is not to destroy the enemy. It is to gain control of land. Therefore ground troops, which actually sieze and control land, are the main element, and support units like artillery exist to assist them in doing that.

However if one breaks the military down into sub-elements (which is actually how it is, I am in the Navy) then each sub element has a particular mission. The personel who directly accomplish that mission are the primary element. The personel who assist them are the support.

Take the flight deck of an aircraft carrier for instance. The pilots would be the primary becuase they actually accomplish the mission. Then there is a vast amount of other people who maintain and arm the planes as well as providing intelligence. Those are the support.

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I want to be the first to Salute you then and thank you for guarding our Country during very questionable times. I also Agree that the Core component is the one seeking/attaining an Objective. Territory for example is of much less use to us in a war on Terror, I understand it creates a buffer zone, but it's still a whole different Ball Park, yet a support structure can exist it in just like everywhere. Not to mention this Particular RPG features Military Training as a primary half of one of the final Origins. As I said earlier, Some Blasters can be the Core, and others are Support... it depends on the objective and the nature of the enemy.

What I'm trying to point out in all of this in that regard, is that a Blaster who takes up the Artillary role and nothing else, will not only draw unwanted attention to themselves, but also won't have a good hard final punch ready at close range when the enenmy closes in on them. Even a brigade of Bowman who kept daggers stood a fighting chance against the odd Footman rush.

But it might also be a Problem, like a poster on this last page showed, that AoE is
so effective under the old rules it makes a Single-Target attack look weak.

This is exactly why I'm saying BuildUp and Aim shouldn't work with AoE, it's making them too powerful and so tempting that most Blasters can't stand the thought of losing it and will make total fools of themselves like Heph did to argue the same point 20 times without saying ANYTHING. FeiWu's right: "You haven't had anything solid to argue or say in 30 pages except Blasters need utility/defense powers in the 2nds not damage, which pretty much everyone agrees on."

If you look at any other Secondary, it has things that atleast make the other powers in that Same secondary more possible... Even powerpools do that, just look at Fighting. The Blaster's Secondary is a list that's way too short on close-range options. I'm saying if we can get this "Fix to AoE" out of the way early, everyone can just accept it, we might be able to get the Support in the rest of the Secondary that really is needed and has been needed since day-1. (Now Soloing, that's an Issue for another Thread that we shouldn't clog this one up with)

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this discussion came to a conclusion the second you suggested we shift to melee attacks to become "hallmark" blasters.

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This is my last comment on this topic as I can't stay on the forums all night like some people....

The ONLY shift I suggested was for Build-Up and Aim to be made not to Effect AoE Powers. This would only force blasters to attack single targets or utilize the rest of their Secondary if and when they chose to use Build-Up and Aim. They could still pop Enrages coupled with Defender Buffs to achieve Group-Annihilating AlphaStrikes when it was necessary. The ONLY tactic this suggestion will EVER PREVENT is to keep Blasters from Solo-Alpha Striking from Range every time their Aim and Buildup is Ready. Hell they could even Melee Alpha-Strike every battle without the help of Buffs OR Inpirations if the right conditions and timing for a precise Cone-Damage were met.

I sincerely hope you take a little longer to fully consider and absorb this because firing back at your current quality of rebuttle won't secure a victory for you in this argument and I won't be here to weaken and grant you a victory through attrition either.

(...you may also want to visit a dictionary website to fully understand that last sentance, which I encourage you to do. Learning is your Friend )

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Agreed..

You killed yourself with that statement..

Even before Issue 2 would I even dare be in melee range

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That's only an opinion. Meanwhile I backed up my case with facts by Citing proven Team strategies that DO allow a Blaster to make Melee Attacks without drawing mass damage, or even minor aggro for that matter. Obviously a Mob that is knocked down has to get back up before it can attack you. And a Mob that is Mezzed will not attack you at all until that Mez wears off. Build-Aim with well slotted Melee attacks will allow you to finish a single target before the hold on them even wears off. Even my Scraptroller can defeat a single minion before my first Blind wears off...and I use PowerPool Melee Attacks....Yech! And further, a Mob that is Debuffed can't inflict nearly as much damage on you. A Mob that is Provoked won't even notice you coming into Melee Range. A mob that tries to hit you while you're Damage Resistant or Bubbled will also fail to inflict damage consistantly enough to be a real threat. It's ONLY bosses who still have a chance of taking you out in a 2-hit combo after any of all the above are present. And I guarantee that atleast one of these is ALWAYS present in ANY team you play on. All that remains is Considering a good matchup and a BadMatchup. Obviously a Blaster is not meant to be a Boss Killer and this Secures the Scrapper a place on the Team in the original Vision of the game.

Before you make anymore statements along this line about how I don't know what I'm talking about, you must in turn provide specific situations that contradict my claims just as I have continually provideed not only situations in this game, but in Major History infact, that contradict this Blaster Choir's refusals to take full advantage of the Melee Offense that was tailored just for them and their inclusion in Team Play. No Doubt some of your Melee powrs are not up to Snuff. Well that's what issue#3 is all about, changing stuff like that. Issue#3 however is NOT ABOUT clinging doggedly to broken and breaking compensations that hurt every other AT in the game. Thank you.

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A cap on the number of mobs than can be hit by a single aoe or cone might work.

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Yeah they could Copy EverQuest and do that, but I fear it would suspend the belief of being a Super-Hero too much and not mesh with the Focus on Tactics-over-Stats that this game pulls off so nicely. ...wheras Overpowered AoE's curently suspend the belief that other Support AT's need. I agree with the last poster, There is better and more creative "MiddleGrounds" between these two.

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So out of curosity, has any dev posted yet on this thread or blaster board since Issue 2?

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Anyone's who been reading the other AT boards enough knows that Statesman's Focus on "the larger problems of End-Game or 30+ game" were not going to be focussed on until Issue #3. And so here he is, dipping his toe in the "larger problem"... or as he's described it several times, "Battles ending before any other AT can be of use". Ranged AlphaStrike AoE's are his named chief culprit in this.

Just be thankful that we all have until Issue#3's completion to plead our cases on this while in reality he could have put the Minion HP increase into Issue#2 at the last second and REALLY made a mess. ...It's really a very simple-albeit tedious change because it's more of a Spreadsheet change than a Coding Change. But we have the opportunity to offer more creative solutions for the next few months so long as we're respectful of eachother and don't remind the Developers of WHY every other company in the industry chooses to ignore it's forums.

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Your credibility is shot here melee boy.

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And your strongest points can be summed up as: "@ss, a$$, moron, f***ing, stupid, moron, a**, a**, (_|_), pee pee, (_|_), (_|_), followed by one last humongous (_|_).


Quit grasping at straws. There is no One-Liner that will bring this argument to a beneficial conclusion. ...Not even "You're Right." because bioth of us are "right" in different areas of the Over-all fun of the Game. And there's nothing more beneficial than Fun for a game.

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Taking away the blaster damage when that's all he brings is a path frought with account cancellations.

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And that's exactly what Increased Minion HP's would do, is take away a Blaster's Superior Rate of "Arresting" however it will NOT reduce the ammount of agro they draw... Don't you see the direct link between Superior-AoE damage and Mass Agro? Wouldn't you prefer to Throw in AoE's that didn't draw mass Agro? Just giving Tanker AT's more options to grab agro isn't going to mean they will all take it and FORCING them to sacrifice slotting if they want to play with Blasters just to take those new options is even worse than imposing a slight nerf against Alpha-Striking. I see you can relate to his situation but I don't see where you're going with it?