_Deth_
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Posts
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Quote:Not trying to take anything away from Dechs, but people were doing what he did in that DA video a long time before he posted that. The basic framework for most people's DA tank builds now comes from what Jebe put together.Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Or anything Dechs has written about it.
Dech's knows his stuff, I am not arguing that he doesn't. He has definitely brought a lot of attention back to DA. That said, Dech's wasn't around the DA community when I put my DA/DM together. The only people I really got any help from at all were Jebe and Findulias(altho a lot of that was me arguing with Fin that you didn't need CoF or OG to be effective) and a couple others. Hell, even Rangle was still leveling his DA/DM. I did get some input from Dechs on softcapping, but that was in general, not dealing with DA at all. I got bored in ish 15 and took a break, when I came back to the game 8 months later, which was about a month after Dechs posted that vid, I compared his build to mine. Basically the same.
So again, like I said before, read Jebe's guide. -
Quote:I lol'd when you made it sound like anything in WoW required skill.Originally Posted by Dz131
Its because nothing in this game rewards skill. You can get a piece of one of the highest end gear from WoW every 2 weeks through Arena, and that's not even a grind after the first week because you only need 10 games after your ratings are already high. Everything in this game is GRINDAN repeatedly.
Yeah you can argue all MMO games eveutnally boil down to a grind but at least in some games skill is factored in some times as well. COX is 100% grinding. -
As has been said, any secondary is good. My DA/DM tank is awesome, and it has nothing to do with siphon life or dark consumption.
Get the recovery uniques and the theft of essence proc. the uniques have done me more mileage than the proc, for some reason lately it just doesnt proc for crap for me.
As for guides, read Jebe_the_Pirate's DA guide. Seriously. Read it. It's all the guide you need to DA. -
Quote:Good try, but noOriginally Posted by Briarpatch
A good brute...
No, a good player adapts to fill in with what a team needs to the best of their AT's ability.
The most important thing you can do when you join a team is to ask what they expect of you. If their expectations don't jibe with what you want to do or what is within your capabilities then you need to decide if you want to leave or stay. Communication solves most of the little problems in life.
If you don't want to tanks as a brute then find someone who will.
If you don't mind tabbing to that purple boss beating down your support team member and tossing a "pity taunt" so they can have some fun too then do that.
If the team knows what to expect from you they won't have reason to condemn you unless you suck at what you agreed to do.
A good player adapts to the needs of the team, yeah, I can run with that to a point. If I am playing on one of my brutes with a bunch of schmucks, guess what, some of em are gonna die, a lot. People assume too much, especially stupid people. I shouldn't have to ask my team what they expect from me, and when someone thinks they are gonna tell me how to play my toon, well, good luck with that.
Too many people are hung up on the holy trinity. If the holy trinity was so important, you wouldnt have all troller teams smashing STFs. There is more than one way to skin a cat, some people just can't wrap their heads around that. It was like when CoV came out and people complained there was no dedicated healer set. Who needs heals when a good team can kill faster than they are taking on damage? Same goes for the "brutes are tanks" people. I don't take taunt on my brutes, except Willpower. What I do is stay a group ahead of the team and piss everything off before they get there. I do the same thing when I play my tanks, except I actually pay attention to green bars on the rest of the team and taunt accordingly, cus thats what I am supposed to do. -
Quote:I would think SM/DA would be worse. I have mace on a tank, and it didn't seem that bad. Stone Melee, however, I have on a WP brute, with QR and Stam, and I still have end issues. That is with basic IOs slotted.Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Agreed. Admittedly, I've never been able to combine it with anything else, but I have to say my favorite combination was Mace/Dark. It hits like a train and you have to kill it twice (or even three to five times depending on how you perceive Dark Regeneration). The only downside is Mace/Dark has to be THE most endurance-draining combo in the game next to Fire/Rad.
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Quote:Oh so much this. After my DM/DA tank of awesomeness, I decided to try out other combos for other ATs. My level 38 claws/da brutes is just nuts. I grab big groups of fun, dish tons of damage and live through some rather insane encounters. All without either control aura. By the time I am done with him, he will be a pure engine of destruction, and almost impossible to kill.Originally Posted by Greyhame
I keep seeing this sentiment repeated, and it bugs me. I leveled my SS/DA brute to 50 pre IOs and it was playable and fun back then. It did take some serious work adjusting slotting to manage end, and I could understand someone making a statement like this preIOs.
But these days? Intelligent frankenslotting = you don't have end problems, and Miracle+Numinas+TheftoEss+Perf.Shifter = lol end. DA also has enough defense that it can be combined with IO bonuses for extreme effectiveness. Recharge bonuses and hasten with Dark Regen mean that in order to die, I have to lose almost all of my HP, heal, and then lose it all again in less than 10-15 seconds. If a mob can't kill me in less than 15 seconds (while I'm Footstomping and possibly using mez auras for extra mitigation) then they can't kill me.
Is DM/DA great? Absolutely. But there's a whole world of other combinations out there that are crazy effective and fun. I just hate to see an old preIO based player perception (which was only sorta true back then) keep people from experimenting with DA now. -
Quote:DA tanks can be fun on just SOs, just takes a different kind of build. You just see a huge jump in the "laughing at everthing thrown at you" factor with IOs. I can honestly say tho, when I was using just SOs, it was fun as hell running around like a tanktroller, watching all the mobs wander around drunk or scared out of their wits. Yes, contrary to conventional wisdom, I ran CoF and OG. Still considering making a fearbomb build just for giggles.Originally Posted by Phedra
Yeah, the comments on Oppressive Gloom that I've seen throughout the parts of this thread that I've read have made me rethink that. The character in question still has a lot of levels to earn to make use of half that build though.
As for the build itself, I never planned on using entirely SOs. Just knew that the numbers weren't exactly unimpressive and thought I'd make evidence available.
I'll look into reworking things for a little extra damage when I get back to that character. I've got several accounts with quite a few characters, on the move at once. Meaning that one isn't a priority, my elec armor tanker was fun to make and is now fairly boring (especially after the respec I did on her to a mostly SO build similar to the above Dark Armor one, gained quite a bit of survivability). Sorta gone back to my beloved support characters now, where build quality can be minimal (and a lot simpler) if you know how to play. -
You can just about customize the effects of DA to absolutely nothing now. Which is nice, seeing how it is the best set out there, unless you like being a big slow lifeless turd that has lackluster damage.
Pre-ED, yeah Stone all the way, but now, meh. Sadly mine was level 41 when that issue dropped, and my Stone/SS got put on the shelf. Took almost 2 more years for him to hit 50, and that was cus I was tired of looking at him. -
*cough cough* softcap positionally, it's better *cough cough*
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Quote:Again, you forget the damage cap. Receiving the same amount of buffs, yes, the scrapper still does more damage. However, if you get on a team that is buff heavy, it is more than possible for the brute to catch up, as the brute has more room to accept those buffs than the scrapper does. 275% more, iirc. Even taking into account fury, that leaves @125% more bonus damage buffs the brute can receive after that scrapper has hit the cap. So yeah, like I said, the brute can still stay pretty close to equal. And, even using your numbers, the average joe isn't going to notice 17 damage difference.Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
It actually makes perfect sense and is exactly what happens. A Scrapper with 95% socketed and 100% from external buffs will out-damage a Brute with 95% socketed, 150% Fury, and 100% from external buffs. This is because the AT damage modifier is so much larger for Scrappers than it is for Brutes.
Smite for Scrappers = 82.58 Base- Adjusted for Criticals = (82.58*1.075) = 88.77
- Base socketing + 100% external buff = (88.77*2.95) = 261.88
Smite for Brutes = 55.05- Base Socketing + 100% external buff + 75 Fury or 150% damage= (55.05*4.45) = 244.97
Actually, there were two sets of spreadsheets comparing scrapper damage with brute damage, because of the same argument you are trying to make. And they weren't compared set for set, they were comparing all scrapper sets vs. all brute sets, as some sets are better for scrappers than for brutes and vice versa. The results were pretty different of course, but the damage was still pretty even between the two ATs comparatively.Quote:Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
If I recall correctly, those spreadsheets also included Gloom, as they were a comparison of optimal DPS chains. They also did not include internalized damage buffs, which heavily favor Scrappers for both Burst and sustained DPS.
Now, let's compare these skills with a 5 target Soul Drain and the exact same external damage buff. The Scrapper takes off even faster in this situation because of their high AT damage modifier and 1.0 self buff modifier. This means that Soul Drain is adding not only more +damage, but it is also manipulating a higher base number.
For Scrappers:- Base socketing + 100% external buff + 5 target Soul Drain = (88.77*3.95) = 350.64
- Base Socketing + 100% external buff + 75 Fury or 150% damage + 5 target Soul Drain= (55.05*5.25) = 289.01
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Quote:Than doesn't make any sense at all, Brutes have a much higher damage cap, which will keep them pretty even on teams. Scrappers will still pull ahead on single targets as long as the crits pile up. The changes to brutes allow scrappers to pull ahead on single targets now, but again, it's really only going to be noticeable by the terribly anal.Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
The biggest difference you will see between a Brute's damage and a Scrapper's damage is if they are on a team, and their damage is being buffed. The Scrapper will quickly pull ahead under those conditions. Then again, the Brute will be getting better defensively.
I would honestly say that the concensus seems to be that Super Strength and Stone Melee do the most damage for Brutes, while Broadsword is in the lead for Scrappers. Since they cannot be compared directly, there is probably some disagreement about which is the stronger. I suspect it isn't all that great a difference, though, Dark Melee, Fire Melee and Kinetic Melee all seem to have been studied extensively, and it doesn't look like there's an advantage one way or the other. (KM does have much better damage boosts on a Scrapper, but it's said to have relatively low damage otherwise. So this may be a situation similar to Super Strength)
As far as the general consensus on what puts out the most damage, I will wait til someone puts out a new spreadsheet. The last ones showed that many common held beliefs on damage output of certain sets was flat wrong. -
if you are gonna throwdown like that on that last build, I would go for softcapped positional def instead.
but thats just me. -
I wouldnt bother with recovery Uniques until the rest of your build is flushed out. Softcapping and recharge are priority one, and seriously, if you actually NEED the recovery uniques on an ElA, you are doing something very very wrong, especially since you have stamina.
I would get those Kinetic Combats and LotGs before anything else, but thats just me. -
Um, I know that it is pre GR, but BillZBubba had a few spreadsheets out that compared brute and scrapper damage output, and brutes won. Not by much, but they put out more.
Now, that said, with GR, brutes got cycled down a little bit. Not really much, just put them back in line with how they should have been in the first place. Now scrappers are still a bit squishier that brutes, but put out a bit more damage as brutes damage caps out a bit lower and the highest fury levels are harder to reach. Brutes are a bit more reliable on damage than previously, with fury degrading more slowly.
This is all pretty common knowledge at this point.
What it all really comes down to, you shouldn't notice a big difference between scrapper and brute damage. If you get a good brute next to a crappy scrapper, the brute will outdamage him, and vice versa. Now, if you get a really good maxed out scrapper and a really good maxed out brute, on a single target, the scrapper will outdamage the brute, but not by a whole lot.
So if you are looking at a brute on par with scrapper damage levels, well, all of them are, at least they are close enough that if you play it right you really won't notice the difference. -
With intelligent slotting, DA is not bad at all for end.
That said, I have a KM/DA in the mid 20s, it's not bad, just not my bag. The long animations drive me nuts, which is why I hate EM as well. Also too single target oriented for me, I like making large groups suffer quickly. Looks great, but just too long for my tastes, may go back and try it again if I get bored with what has become my favorite toon, which is Claws/DA. -
Quote:They dont dish out less for the sake of survivability, fire dishes out more for the sake of survivability, i.e. you kill it before it kills you. This is why fire tanks are so "squishy".Originally Posted by Daystar_NA
i must disagree with you here. every AT has a specific role on the team, and while you are correct in saying that every blaster can be a good blaster, there are some powersets that can be played in a very non-blaster fashion, and there are some that epitomize the idea of a blaster better then others. a blasters job is to throw out damage as fast as possible and for that a fire/fire is by far the best. every other powerset dishes out less damage for the sake of better survivability.
that being said, i also agree that some of the choices of the OP might be a bit off, mostly in the area of the tank. while it is true that stone/ has the best potential for defense, defense alone isn't, IMHO, the only goal of a tank. a tanks job it to grab, hold, and survive as much agro as possible, and in that regard i don't think there is anything better then an ice/ tank. ice/ tanks get the best PBAoE debuff in the game as well as a damage aura to get and keep agro with some pretty decent defense to boot.
anyway, on to your brute question. a brutes goal is a cross between blasters and tanks, they're job is to kill things as fast as possible while staying alive for as long as possible in order to build up as much fury as they can. in that regard i'd have to say the brutiest brute would be fire/willpower. fire, again, is all about dealing the most possible damage, and willpower lets you heal faster the more enemies there are around you (up to 10) which, combined with lots of hit points, is more useful to a brute then anyone else.
Ice Armor? Really? Yeah, i like Ice Armor, it is a solid set, and very capable, but it is one of the few powersets in the game that really needs another look for it's purpose. It has great mitigation, and nice debuffs, but for pure survivability, compared to the other sets, it is kind of lacking. It is centered more on S/L defense, and is lacking in resistance. That is the tradeoff for all the soft control it gets.
and that goes back to my original point. before you take into account IOs, all of the sets are pretty balanced, if you learn them and learn to play them well. They all have weaknesses, and they all have tradeoffs. Too many people look at one stat, and that becomes the be all end all. It's like people that say they need specific ATs for certain encounters, when the fact is, this game was not centered around the holy trinity of MMOs. If it were, all controller, or even more to the point, all scrapper STFs wouldn't be possible.
oh yeah, and if you need tanker level survivability to build fury, you are doing it wrong. -
all of those are wrong, especially stone/dark for tanking, seriously, that combo just makes it sound like you hate yourself.
I mean really. Since when has emp been the posterboy for defenders. Seriously, there are so many better choices than sonic like rad/, cold/, kin/. Not that sonic is bad, just not the overachiever you seem to be making it out to be.
seriously tho, there are no "ATest of the AT" or whatever the hell you stated it to be. It comes off almost as obnoxious as "whats the most survivable Tanker/Brute set".
The different powersets within each AT are just different flavors of a certain playstyle. You can be just as "Brutish" with any of the sets if you play them like a brute, the problems come when people try to play a brute like a tank. It's further exacerbated when people expect Brutes to be tanks.
Just roll a set you think looks fun, or looks challenging. If you learn to play it right, it will be the "ATest of the AT" all on its lonesome. Otherwise you are just trying to force yourself to play a toon you may despise, at which point you do everyone a disservice, and look like a tool to boot. -
back to the original topic.
Why does everyone love Invuln so much.
As said before, it's easy.
My second tank to hit 50 was my Invuln/Fire. Loved it for a minute, but got boring. I still like it for farming occasionally, when I need a break from my Fire/Fire, but thats about it.
I find my DA to be just as survivable as my Invuln, if not more. Having a ridiculously huge heal on a really fast recharge is a beautiful thing. -
Quote:ahem, mine can.Originally Posted by Patteroast
My strongest advice about Dark Armor is that as a tank, you need to pay close attention. You can't herd up a mob and then go to the bathroom and expect to still be alive when you return.
That said, if you have/can afford the 3% def pvp IO, then you can give the finger to the conventional S/L softcapping of DA that most do and softcap it positionally. It will be a tight build, and a bit end heavy, but definitely doable, and will make your DA tank a beast. -
Quote:He meant typed damage. It is possible to softcap DA positionally, but it is ungodly expensive, as it requires both +3% def IOs. IF I can ever get the PvP 3% IO, I have a build set up for my DA/DM tank that is softcapped to melee/range/aoe. However, the @42% def to all three postions you can get without that IO isn't too shabby. I also have a build setup for a DA/KM tank that does the same thing.Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
It's a heavy resist set that has enough defense to easily softcap positions through IOs. It has in set control and the best heal in the game.
So yeah, for pure survivability, Stone Armor. SD and Inv are about the easiest after Stone. If you want a bit more of a challenge, I say go with DA. It's a little more expensive and requires more attention, but is more satisfying imo.
Then again, I am still of the opinion that all sets are equally survivable if you actually learn how to use the utility built into them, especially if you pair them with the right secondary. -
Quote:The steadfast protection is easy to get, just do level 10-14 bronze rolls from AE tickets. Don't forget, there is a Karma KB protection IO as well. Easiest thing you can do to take care of KB/Imm is take Combat Jumping and slap a Karma or, if you feel like spending big, a Blessing of the Zephyr KB protection.Originally Posted by AkuTenshiiZero
All I can say is...I play a Dark Armor Stalker. At first, I hated the set and wondered if I made a mistake. Then it just sort of clicked, and now my survival rate* is phenominal. I'm not sure how to explain it...I think my biggest issue was getting it through my skull that I will be getting damaged. A lot. However, /DA has more than enough tools to deal with that.
Also, I don't have much of an Endurance issue these days. Not sure what my slotting is offhand, but I seem to have balanced it out nicely using almost purely common IOs, a few SOs, and like two set IOs.
KB is the bane of my existance, I admit. One of these days I'll have my precious Steadfast Protection unique. Someday. I skipped Shadow Dweller, so Immob gets me, but I'm a teleporter anyways so no worries.
*(I considder popping Soul Transfer in the heat of battle to be "Surviving". Defeat is when all options are exhausted, and you are forced to use an Awaken or the hospital. That's my view, anyways.)
And yeah, that is the whole point of Soul Transfer, which is why I don't understand folks always skipping it. -
Quote:way to miss the pointOriginally Posted by tarrantm
It's been hashed out already. I'd be more surprised if it doesn't go live as is. lol at denial.
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Quote:yeah, so you are basing an argument on something that hasn't gone to and may not make it to the live servers. Until it goes live, it means nothing.Originally Posted by tarrantm
Now that the GR NDA is lifted, I'm getting back to this and I can say that they no longer have the same cap.
so yeah, once again, they have the same cap. -
Quote:I said it was expensive. Ridiculous, maybe. Ugly, I prefer eccentric.Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
The above build is over the top ridiculous, ugly, and the PvP IO alone will cost 2 billion or more.
That said, it's still pretty freakin' awesome..
That said, it would work, and it would be amazing.
I just need that d@mned PvP IO. -
Quote:CoD, CoF and OG are far from the defining powers of the set. My DA "softcapped McPurpled XX/YY is unstoppable" tank only has CoD for the defense, and doesn't use CoF or OG. It doesn't have any purples either.Originally Posted by prev1
Please define a loaded statement for me. Brutes cannot achieve the same resist numbers as a tank without outside buffing. Ever. Not once. Cannot happen. The defense oriented slant of IOs prevents it. In the future maybe the resist sets will get some love. A DA brute CAN achieve the exact same defense numbers as a tank. Please see the above about the defense slant of IOs. Also, bear in mind, that this is in fact a RESIST set that we are talking about.
_Deth_, I was not, nor ever did, imply that DA is broken, useless, worthless, unplayable, or in need of fixing. I stated the FACT that when you choose the set, and level it, you have the OPTION of taking 3 very unique toggles (CoD, CoF, and OG). I also seem to have posted that you can easily work around taking CoD (with CJ), and CoF can be skipped for OG. If you are going to choose the set, I would highly recommend CoD and at least Cloak of Fear OR Oppressive Gloom. The added toggles are what make the set unique. If you are not going to, you may as well roll a different toon. I also pointed out that the set does in fact have strong points as compared to others. The only caveat to that, is that I would plan on making a substantial investment into the toon. Most of the posts I've seen contradicting the numbers posted are of the "My softcapped McPurpled XX/YY is unstoppable, and therefore, you suck" variety. >shrug< Most of my toons are levelled with basic IOs, and a few double/triples where appropriate.
Could you please load up one of your DA toons, open combat attributes and tell us what your End consumption is? It would go a long ways towards validating your argument that my numbers were slanted to make DA look bad. They weren't btw, it's true. If you take the toggles and run them.... you use some more end.
As far as not understanding the ZOMGaWESOME of the set, I have played a claws/dark brute to ~40 (38 maybe?) and a spines/DA scrapper to 35.
Running 9 toggles- all armors, tough, weave, cj & sprint, i use 1.69 end/sec. Thats straight from my combat attributes. My end recovery is 3.55 end/sec.
What I find hilarious is that people use the "only using Basic IOs or SOs" argument to try to show how weak it is. Do a lot of people still only run in SOs, yeah, sure they do. I don't IO the hell out of all my toons, only the ones I plan on playing a lot. Just because most people only use SOs doesn't change the true potential of any set.
And if you haven't IOed the hell out of it, or even loaded it up with basic IOs then you haven't come close to the "ZOMGaWESOMENESS" of the set.