Zem

It IS from the archetype. You're splitting hairs over implementation detail. If you want to be that way then everybody's inherent is "from" the powers they use since they have to be implemented in the actual powers. Attacks that Brutes can use have a line-item that adds to their fury meter. Doesn't mean their inherent isn't Fury, because it is. Similarly, Hide sets the Stalker's "crit" meter to 1. But then so does Placate. Getting a controlled critical from the hidden state (again either Placate or Hide) together with getting random criticals outside hidden based on teammates within 30ft IS the Stalker inherent, collectively known as "Assassination".

As for Blaster survivability, the point is not that they have no survivability. The point is that they have less survivability than Stalkers. Really, this can't be argued. Hit points may be the same, but Stalkers have an entire secondary powerset devoted to their survival, including mez protection from a low level and much better defense/resist values than a Blaster can achieve. Even if you don't believe any of that, the devs have come right out and said it before during the last discussion of Blaster buffs. Blaster earn the most debt bar none.

If only they could put in his "Assassin Strike".

I suspect the real problem might be Blasters. Any time this Scrapper/Stalker thing manages to get brought up in the AT forum, the Blaster fans start in. They're similarly worried that Scrappers outshine them in survival AND damage output. Not sure I buy that, but if true then it's the same argument we have, but it's also being stuck between a rock and a hard place for us. There may just not be any room to put us above Scrappers in damage but below Blasters. Not without making Blaster damage entirely ridiculous.

PVP is certainly no longer a concern. They can easily adjust the damage output of select powers, like Assassin Strike, downward if they think it's too much for PVP with a higher damage modifier. They did it to normalize long-animation-time attacks for PVP already. Though I am not sure which they care less about: Stalkers or PvP.

Ah yes, KM might indeed be a special case since that change to CS. My KM/Nin is just starting out. Looking forward to that.

For most stalkers this is not a DPS killer. It's still scale 7 damage in about 4.1 to 5 seconds (plus the demoralize effects) and I'm pretty sure that's still a net benefit to insert into your ST chain when you can and when you're not under a lot of fire. As for not being soft-capped... yeah, I don't play Stalkers who can't soft-cap. The inherent is just too skewed towards benefiting defense-based characters way more than resistance based. And god-forbid your set includes +HP for survival. Add it to the list of grievances.

"Below average" is a considerable exaggeration. Depending on the surrounding teammates, the Stalker might equal or exceed a Scrapper even at ST damage. AoE is a different matter of course. Not saying that is good enough. I don't like it either, but it's hardly "below average".

Stalkers simply aren't meant to solo AVs let alone solo them better than anyone else. Frankly, NO ONE is supposed to solo AVs, but we've been given enough tools that some ATs and specific powerset combos can. What concerns me about Stalkers is how they work on teams and on a team a Stalker CAN equal or exceed a Scrapper just dealing damage to an AV. I would prefer that was unconditional, but it's really not that drastic a difference even when there are too few teammates to boost the Stalker's crit rate.

I think we're actually pretty good on tricks. I'd settle for just more damage. At the very least it should never be in question which can deal the most damage to a single target in melee. Scrapper or Stalker.

Kind of sounds like you're talking about using AS outside of Hide. That's not really what I mean. Yeah, Elec or Spines *might* get some value out of that but it's a bad idea for pretty much anyone else. From Hide or after Placate however, it can't be beat for single-target DPA, provided it's not interrupted. So it will improve an ST chain if you can start with AS from Hide and/or follow Placate with AS.

I assume you don't use AS from Hide or Placate because you're one of those "AoE is everything" people. And what I'm saying is that yeah, AoE is great... except when it's irrelevant. And it's irrelevant when there's enough to kill minions and LTs but not bosses (unless the entire spawn is bosses or EBs or something, which does happen sometimes).

Whether or not it is the optimal thing to use depends on the situation, not the powerset.

Besides.. isn't Kinetic Combat a level 20-35 set? Or is this a joke I am missing?

Yeah, I'm not sure that all-corr team (or maybe an all-def team) wouldn't trump ANY other all-AT team at an ITF speed run. I hardly think it's reasonable to expect the devs to balance performance based on how the AT operates in an all-AT Task Force. Stacking buffs break the game (See also: Repeat Offenders) and short of some kind of draconian PvE diminishing returns nerf, I don't see that ever changing.

You're not supposed to see the Stalkers!

/vanishes

I keep it and use it because the idea it is useless, even in its present state, is forum theory-crafting nonsense.

There's more than enough AoE in this game. There is room for a single-target specialist. You have only to look at the relative difference in hit points between a boss and a minion to know that.

Which is why I'd prefer making it more useful than making it more like an ordinary attack. We're enough like scrappers already.

That depends what you mean by "playing like a scrapper". If you ARE interested in doing as much damage as you possibly can then the way to play a Stalker is as follows:

1. From Hide, select either a high-value target for BU+AS or a packed mob for BU+AoE to take advantage of your alpha strike critical from Hide.

2. Scrap it out while looking for another Placate+AS or Placate+AoE opportunity (there are very few cases where Placate+ST attack is a good idea from a damage output standpoint).

It's that simple. Is this what you call playing like a scrapper? Notice I am not saying anything about where you are doing this. If the high-value target you want to AS is in the middle of a big mob of enemies, then that is where you go. You aren't going there to off-tank like a Scrapper nor should you be the one gaining aggro like a Scrapper. You don't have a taunt aura like some Scrappers, you have a lower threat rating, and you have Assassin Strike's debuff to help out.

I wade into mobs all the time. I survive because I have built decently well for survival and because I'm relying on the fact I shouldn't be keeping all the aggro for very long if I'm on a team. I'm NOT a lone operative. The concept of a stalker as a lone assassin or operative is just that. It's a concept that has no meaning or utility on a team. We are designed to get in there and scrap while looking for targets of opportunity to make the best of our assassination inherent. This should come as no surprise since we were not so much designed as a new AT as we were modified from Scrappers. We are not Scrappers but we are more LIKE them than we are unlike them. That is a fact.

Survivability is not the problem. I accept that I am not as sturdy as a Scrapper. I'm more careful than I would be were I playing a Scrapper. Doesn't mean I don't get in there and scrap whenever I am not assassin striking something. And I am probably more focused on attacking bosses than a scrapper might be who is looking to make the most of a BU+AoE first perhaps. But these are relatively minor differences. And finally, many of the people you see "complaining" in this forum are long-time stalker fans who still play and enjoy their stalkers. It's not the problem *I* have with my stalker so much as it is the problem a lot of the people I might team with do. It's not that I can't get on teams, but it is absolutely true I cannot get teams as often or as easily as I could with a more popular AT that is considered more useful. And that's why you balance. In an ideal game, each AT would be equally popular because that would encourage everyone to play more different ATs and thus spend more time with the game.

My post was poorly worded. I meant "some" other epics do not crit in or out of hide. The basic ST and AoE attack powers in the PPPs do crit. The two damage-dealing controls in the PPPs do NOT crit. NONE of the powers in any of APPs except for Blaze Mastery, can crit. Scrappers can crit with these APPs. Stalkers cannot.

Blaze Mastery is an exception to all of the above. ALL of its damage dealing powers, including the controls can crit in and out of Hide. And the AoE crits for full damage.

At least this is all according to City of Data which was updated fairly recently. I don't have personal experience with all of the PPP and APP sets for Stalkers.

Actually, I think nothing changes because there are too few of us left playing Stalkers to justify spending any more time. Castle's last post about Stalkers and why they weren't going to do any more for us made it sound like it was impossible to do more because of the design of the game. For whatever reason, they just refuse to bump up the damage scalar any more. Whether this is to avoid angering Scrappers or (maybe even more likely) Blasters, who can say? For whatever reason, it's just not happening.

I do still have fun with Stalkers. IOs fixed a lot of the problems with the AT relative to PvE content. They can't fix us relative to other ATs who have the same access to inventions but often this matters a whole lot less in the actual game than it seems to on the forums.

It's curious they haven't done anything yet about Burst or Fireball. My most optimistic guess as to why is that they are quietly collecting data to see if they should do this for all Stalker AoEs... but I kinda doubt it. I think they just haven't bothered to fix it. Other epics don't crit at all, in or out of Hide, like Shuriken.

They've already explained that. They couldn't do anything involving new artwork/animations this time around. Apparently even re-using an existing animation but giving it an icy/frosty effect would involve something like this. So for Stalkers the obvious problem was Assassin Strike. I would very much expect to see Ice Melee some time after i21.

Yeah, reading that on these forums back when the changes went in was worth a good laugh. I can't believe anyone complained about that. I mean, I can believe people will complain about anything, I suppose, but seriously? A Stalker has to huddle up within 30 feet of about four teammates AT ALL TIMES just to equal the single-target damage output of a Scrapper even after the changes. THAT is the problem. Teams just aren't that compact most of the time unless they are all standing around an AV and even THEN it's typical for the ranged/squishy types to be farther away than 30 feet. The *shortest* of their ranged attacks tend to start at around 40 feet after all.

The thing that WOULD step on Scrapper toes, not because it's justified but because they'll complain about it anyway, is putting Stalkers where they belong: Solidly ahead of Scrappers on damage output. It is the SAME argument they used against Brutes. If Brutes are more survivable why should they have the same or better offense?

I want to see that logic applied to Stalkers in relation to Scrappers.

AoE isn't the problem there. You've got fewer AoE attacks there than Elec Melee has. The problem is the lack of the minor tier 1 / moderate tier 2 combo that ALL scrapper and stalker primaries have. Not sure they are willing to break that mold however interesting it might be to do so. So your 1 and 2 powers will likely remain Frozen Fists and Ice Sword. Ice Slash is also a bit strong for the tier 3 slot. And Ice Patch is most definitely not like anything any other Stalker has in its primary though I'd have to say if they keep it then an Ice/Ninja would be one heck of a Stalk-troller.

Anyway, I'd expect something more like this:

1.Frozen Fists
2.Ice Sword
3.Frost
4.Assassin's Spike
5.Build Up
6.Placate
7.Ice Sword Circle
8.Ice Slash (or Freezing Touch)
9.Frozen Aura

Again, not saying I like this one better than your version... just that it seems more in-line with what we've been seeing from recent proliferations. They've been plenty willing to add more AoEs, but not to lose the basic tier 1/2. Not yet anyway.

True, but to be absolutely fair the degree to which some people slam AS is also exaggerated. It is good for what it is designed to be used for: A big ST alpha strike. From Hide, there is no better DPA you have access to if nailing a single target is your goal. No attack chain, even from Martial Arts or Dark Melee, will beat using AS from Hide provided you are not interrupted.

The other thing that is often brought up is the nonsense about "not having time" to use AS on a steamrolling team. The problem with this scenario is that no one bothers to justify what ELSE they might do. They just assume that if they can manage to put some damage into an enemy before someone else on the team kills it anyway... they have "contributed". If you truly are on a team that, without you, is already killing everything (including all bosses) in the spawn before you can land an Assassin Strike then the truth is that there is NOTHING you can add to that team. Another AoE isn't going to kill the spawn faster. If the bosses are dying in under four seconds then the minions and LTs are being vaporized even faster. Really... what are you going to do in that situation? Blow off an AoE and beat someone else to overkilling some trash minion? Yay?

Not that AS can't be improved. I'd love it if they could rework all the animations to standardize on the 2.67s cast time of KM's AS. Then they should just make the thing uninterruptible. Or at the very least cut it's interrupt time to 1s or even 0.5s. This would require you to plant yourself to begin the animation but have a very small chance of being interrupted. I think that would be enough to make it a whole lot more useful in more situations.

But alas, I think the will to spend any more time on Stalkers is all but gone entirely from the dev team. At least anything that would involve art time. Reducing interrupt time might be good enough and should only require changing a number in the powers database, I would think.