Argentae
-
Posts
243 -
Joined
-
Oh sure... A badly built/played 'Troller will faceplant with breathtaking speed!
Mobs just plain HATE anything that throws out controls, and for good reason. I've seen any number of Controllers played by folks that don't know what they are doing throw just an AOE immob at a spawn and then get pissed that they take an alpha in their teeth and faceplant immediately.
Hmm. I think the problem is maybe that you're looking at it from PRIMARILY a DEBUFF perspective, and looking just at the debuffs you're right, they aren't enough on that kind of build. But Controllers are CONTROL primary, Buff/Debuffs secondary. The control primary is where the defense comes from, Controllers (with a few exceptions) generally don't rely on Buff/Debuff as their primary mitigation. They Hold/Stun/Confuse the spawn FIRST, and THEN they buff/debuff the cr@p out of themselves&team/spawn and tear the mobs apart.
Arg -
::nods::
I may try a Dark/NAff when it rolls out, but after loving the trip up on my Dark/Dark and Dark/Storm I'm taking a break from Dark/ with a Fire/Dark. Got him from 1 to 28 solo with some fairly moderate play (few hours a day) over the 2Xp weekend.
Once I get him to 39/40 so I can see how it plays with psycho-monkeys and Fluffy I'll be able to change over to a Dark/NAff... Maybe.
Dunno though, Fire/Dark is a pretty DANG good combo! I do have to say they did a decent job with the KB->KD tweak, it's enough less effective that it's not ALL you need, more like a very VERY useful advantage and not a game breaker. Still makes Ice Slick look WEAK though, Ice/ really REALLY needs that review/tweaking they have promised.
Arg -
Quote:Umm. Right. I'm guessing you're not really a controller player? I mean, I don't want to make any assumptions and, sure, you're totally entitled to your own opinion. However, it's worth noting that Controllers were doing solo street sweeping of hazards zones and doing PL/Farming runs long before IO's even existed. I've got a Plant/Storm (Viridicane) that MOWS DOWN (sorry, obligatory bit of Plant humorOriginally Posted by _Force_
Obviously controlling and debuffing the spawn goes along way, I just don't believe it's enough to skip building some actual survival specs into a build. Especially a set like poison that's completly lacking in self buffs or heals. ) +8/+3 spawns solo all the time, and she was built without any noticeable +def or +res. Doesn't even have any status protection as it's a Plant/Storm/Ice build. What Viri DOES have is GOBS of recharge, and no, she hasn't done any incarnate content, I've done all that on my Dark/Dark.
Hell, going back to I-2/I-3 my original Mind/Kin used to live in Melee and ran at a pretty high difficulty (back before you could set the # heroes equiv), before containment and waaaaay before IO's existed. Control is Pro-Active defense. Used correctly it makes actual defense/resistance not all that much of a factor.
To be clear, I'm not attacking you or your opinion, but if you haven't played a lot of high level controller builds, is it possible that you're coming from a Tank/Scrapper/Brute/Stalker type background? If so, you might be seeing things through that experience and be unaware of the capabilities of a well built controller in the hands of as skilled controller player.
:: tosses two shiny coins in the hat ::
Arg -
I spent a long time thinking about this same exact question for my Dark/Dark and then again for my Dark/Storm, in both cases I ended up going with Leviathan, because Waterspout is just that good.
Actually, the Coralax is decent as well, and Bile (they should have left it as chum!) Spray meshes sooooo perfectly with the cones of Fearsome Stare and Living Shadows. With Dark/Storm it's an even better match given that you'll already have Tornado out, so Waterspout is just Tornado's cooler (KU instead of KB and better FX) though less available brother. Waterspout even gives a -Def and induces fear in it's vic.. err.. targets.
Arg -
Quote:Exactly.Originally Posted by MikeRobe
have you ever played a fire/ controller? that's where they belong, right smack in the middle of the mosh. I'd not use a /poison for my choice of what the OP is trying but any fire controller I play wades into the middle from about lvl 12 on.
My personal pref (mainly because it's my most recent alt, though I've got quite a few Fire/ in the stable) is Fire/Dark. The radius on Darkest Night and Tar Pit is much bigger than in /Rad, and everything seems to mesh perfectly, esp once you get Fade and Soul Absorption in the mix. Not really an "Aura" controller as it's largely dropped psuedopets and an anchor, but the effect is similar, you neuter and melt everything around you just by standing there, single target attacks are totally optional.
Arg -
My most recent fav sets with synergy:
Plant/Storm/Lev: Viridicane was my favorite alt for quite a while. Excellent synergy between Plant's AOE confusion, -KB immob and all the mitigation and dmg available from /Storm. Very durable, versatile set with excellent AOE damage. Plant/Storm actually has a use for the +regen Tree, as it fills the hole left by /Storm's lack of a self heal.
Dark/Dark/Lev: Awesome. The stacking of the -ToHit from both sets with the hefty +def from /Dark makes for a combo that very quickly becomes effectively def capped esp if you focus on +Ranged def IO sets. This is one combo where I honestly don't think there is any need for AOE controls, esp with the powerful heal that both you AND Dark Servant have. It's amusing to watch the mobs try soooooo hard to hurt you and utterly fail. With five pets (2 Shades, Mrs O'Leary, Fluffy and Waterspout) it's like playing a MM but with a full control primary.
Dark/Storm/Lev: Not as powerful out of the gate as Plant/Storm or Dark/Dark, it does start to come into it's own as you get Tornado and Lightning storm. Esp if you pick up the KB -> KD IO from the Overwhelming Force set. This one goes Dark/Dark/Lev one better by having SIX pets counting Tornado, Lightning Storm and Waterspout. It's also very handy having the -Def from Freezing Rain to help leverage Vet Attacks (Blackwand/Sands of Mu/Nem Staff) to help with the targeted single target damage... AOE damage this build has in spades.
Fire/Dark/Lev: Still working this build up through the levels, got it to 28 so far, so I can comment on the synergy of having Fade and Soul Absorption on a Fire controller. In a word: Yum. Don't even have Imps and Fluffy yet, and on a nearly pure SO build (I've got a set of the ATO in Flashfire and the KB->KD Overwhelming Force IO in Bonfire) it's damn effective. Running at +8/+0 with no real problems, and having a lot of fun with Bonfire + Hotfeet + Tar Patch + just enough Fire cages to keep the immob going. If you time it right, the -KB of Fire Cages wears off just about as the mobs come out of the stun from Flashfire. And the -ToHit from Darkest Night actually makes Smoke's -ToHit worthwhile. Soooo many different kinds of mitigation in this combo, and they work together very well to drastically reduce the basic fragility of Fire/ by itself. I fully expect things to get a lot better once the psycho-aggromagnate-monkeys and fluffy are added to the mix. The combo of 3 melee damage pets with the melee -ToHit and healing from Fluffy should allow throwing bosses into the mix without noticeable problems.
Arg -
If it works in Tornado, it'd probably also work in Bonfire. That would make Fire/ absurd.
Arg -
Agreed.
The thing with Dark/ having Haunt instead of another direct dmg power, is that Haunt is VASTLY more time and end efficient than spamming a third damage power. The Shades are a smart missile that you can fire off and then focus on doing other things KNOWING that they will do a ton of damage either spread around, or on whatever hard target(s) remain. That gives the Dark/ controller the ability to work the spawn using single target controls (Possess and Dark Grasp) to neutralize troublesome LT's or turn them to your advantage.
@Reppu: I never said Dark/ was on a level with Plant/ and Fire/. I've always said that those two ARE the top tier for AOE damage, and after them Dark/ probably comes in next.
Dark/ is a lot like Illusion but WITH Immobs so there is no containment setting problems. That's a huge benefit.
What makes Dark/ work well for AOE dmg is the fact that you can stay back and do everything from range with Fearsome Stare and Living Shadows as your primary control AND containment setting AND damage.
Anyway...
On the Fluffy tangent: Fluffy EXCELS when you have melee dmg focused pets as he will run in and both heal them and apply his very hefty -ToHit to mitigate their incoming damage. Fluffy is NOT really a damaging pet at all, he's more of a pocket Defender with a MASSIVE heal and great -ToHit etc. I expect Imps + Fluffy to a fabulous combo if I ever get around to leveling up the baby Fire/Dark I have collecting dust atm.
On the testing aspect I think it's almost a requirement that we split it into at LEAST an AOE category and a ST category. Another question that comes up, is what kind of global rech should be present during testing? Given that a lot of recharge can make a BIG difference in the impact of some of the slower recharging powers, and the attack chain alters significantly as global rech climbs.
Builds with less rech will favor sets that have more powers to build a chain out of, while higher recharge builds will favor ones that have fewer but more optimal powers.
Confusion effects also bring up an interesting difficulty in terms of figuring the result so I'm guessing we're looking not at dmg # out of Hero Stats but a slightly more abstract stopwatch approach with the time it takes start to finish in taking down a spawn.
Another question is whether we consider the survivability? I'm pretty sure most of us can agree that Fire/ is a bit less robust in it's ability to handle ambushes etc, but does the fact that you might faceplant more get factored in at all? I mean being dead DOES kinda put a damper on your dmg output. Given what a complex issue it already is though, I'm thinking that that's really beyond scope. The question was ranking sets by DMG, not by whether you can do the dmg and walk away at the end.
Probably the biggest question though is "cherry picking". WHAT mobs are in the spawn can make a huge difference in the performance of the different sets. Spawns with buff/debuf mobs will favor sets with confusion powers, sets with no special abilities will favor raw dmg output and just enough mitigation to survive. Basically are we looking at a sets dmg output in actual PLAY, going through a variety of arcs? Or are we looking for dmg output in a min/maxed farming situation?
Arg -
Quote:Fair enough, but you're looking just at ST, I never said it was in the top tier of ST dmg sets, although with both shades and umbra beast beating on a single target, yes I'd still put it above Mind/ and possibly Grav/. If my secondary allows it by providing a -def power, then I can fill in single target with Vet attacks (granted that's not in the primary but that comes back to comparing apples to the fluffiness of a cat's tail).Originally Posted by Reppu
You can't really disagree with the fact it's ST Immo and ST Hold are two of the worst of the entire AT. That all said, YMMV otherwise but of the "Top ST Sets", it can't contend with them for personal damage. Which means Haunt is only really offsetting it's lack of a personal damage ability (IE: Spectral Wounds, Hot Feet, Lift, Propel, etc etc), and the fact the ST Immo and ST Hold are terrible.
Umbral Beast is just a standard single pet. Decent damage not much else.
So, I must strongly disagree that Haunt lifts it near or above any other set. No personal attacks, and two of the worst ST's in the AT.
But all that's besides the point. My understanding is that we were talking about dmg as an overall issue NOT focused specifically on personal ST dmg.
Yes Illusion gets the extra dmg from pets too, but Illusion totally lacks any real ability to set containment, and also lacks any meaningful damaging AOE attack (well aside from the fact that IIRC Phanty gets torrent?).
IF you are looking at total damage done, AOE *always* makes ST dmg pale by comparison, it's simple math. Even if you are doing somewhat mediocre dmg via your AOE attacks, mediocre * 16 is better than excellent * 1. In AOE you also have to note that Umbra beast HAS a decent AOE attack (like Phanty) that it uses, and that Dark/ has the immob to make more effective.
I think to be a meaningful discussion we would HAVE to setup some sort of categories so that we are comparing things that are somewhat similar.
Just as an example you also have to decide what to do with confusion dmg. Dmg caused by confused mobs is a VERY real contributor to overal dmg potential of a set. It's a BIG part of what puts Plant/ on the top of the dmg list for me, pair every spawn AOE confusion with the ability to doe enough AOE dmg to get the lion's share of the XP and all the drops and you have an AOE monster.
And Yet Plant is NOT on the top for single target dmg, I'd probably put either Illusion or Fire on the top for single target, depending on what TYPE of single target and therefore how much healback happens with the spectral dmg.
It's like comparing individual powers to each other... It's a meaningless comparison, you can't compare powers you have to compare SETS because they are balanced as sets NOT individually.
In the same way I don't think you can just compare "Damage". You have to set some parameters for the comparison, and probably rank them for different categories.
Sure does make for some fun conversation though!
I've TOTALLY got to get back to doing some actual work though... Wife aggro. :: sigh ::
Arg -
Quote:Totally disagree.Originally Posted by Reppu
Haunt has a major issue in that the pets are prone to dying fairly easily, and only have a single attack. While Imps are much like this, Imp Brawl is by far superior to Shadow Punch. But, Haunt is definitely not bad (For Controllers).
However, Dark has one big shortcoming in comparison to this: Their ST Immo and ST Hold are two of the worst for DPA in the game. By far. Slow animation and low base damage = ugh.
Haunt helps offset this, but it can't be ignored Dark's personal damage is fairly lackluster. It strongly relies on it's pets to deal the bulk of it's damage, but on the flipside it also has the major lack of personal damage.
Illusion gets both.
Also, the Cone vs. the T.AoEs of the other AoE Immos? AoE Immos are Radius 30. This is MORE than large enough to hit an entire spawn. The only way you wouldn't is if the spawn was somehow spread extremely far away. In being a cone, it is more likely to miss things due to the cone dipping downward due to bad targeting metrics, etc.
Dark is a good set, but you're ignoring the weaknesses (Personal Damage, Pet Squishiness).
The shades are NOT that squishy if you support them with the -ToHit that Dark/ brings to the table in spades. If you expect them to tank a spawn by themselves, then yes they are going to bite it BIG time, but as a dmg power when used with the rest of the set? Not bad at all esp since they are so fast to recast.
Re the cone: I've had very little problem getting all of a spawn in LS both on my Dark/Dark and on my Dark/Storm. In fact with the Dark/Storm it's even more useful because spawns often get spread into a long line by Hurricane and just lining that up with the cone is quite easy, while putting it into a clump for a targeted AOE can take a bit more time.
Obviously YMMV widely, but I've found that I can take on larger spawns a lot sooner with my Dark/ than I can with anything except Plant/.
Now PART of the difference in opinion may lie in the what difficulty settings different players use. I tend to go with +8/+0-2 depending on how mature the build is and with no bosses. If someone does smaller spawns with a substantially higher level delta I can totally see why the Shades would be quite squishy etc.
I think part of the difficulty in comparing "damage" between sets is because a lot depends on the playstyle, situation, difficulty settings chosen etc.
Arg -
My gaming time has been sharply curtailed while my wife and I focus on getting the next version of our website done and online, so I haven't been able to do any specific testing.
Based on my experience playing multiple Mind/, Grav/ (and I have played Grav/ a fair bit since the re-vamp), Fire/ and Dark/ controllers I'd totally put Dark/ above both Mind/ and Grav/ if damage is the criteria.
Dark/ has no problem setting containment which *immediately* puts it above Mind/ for anything over single target and esp for PTOD targets.
The Shades from Haunt are actually excellent damage AND control (not as nearly as good a control tool as PA, but you CAN aim them at a mob/spawn much more effectively from range) and the (relatively) fast recharge makes them an excellent fire and forget dmg power.
Living Shadows not only does better dmg than most AOE immobs (Roots is best IIRC followed by Fire cages?), but the huge cone makes it easier to get most of a spawn that often has a couple outliers. With 4 dmg procs slotted it does EXCELLENT dmg and has the -kb to leverage things like Tornado etc.
To me Dark/ plays like a hybrid of several other primaries with many of the advantages of other sets. It does quite good ST dmg when you factor in Haunt (way better DPA than the ST attack powers like the ST immob or lev/lift from other sets), and does excellent AOE dmg as well once you get Living Shadows slotted up with procs.
Long story short: I'd put Dark/ right up there with Plant/ and Fire. Illusion is up there as well for single target, but the lack of an AOE immob/dmg power really hurts Illusion/ when you start looking at AOE dmg.
That's my two shiny coins...
Arg -
In a word: No.
Reason: Of all build combos Grav/Dark would be the absolute LAST I would take Blackhole on. If you do want a phase power, Grav/'s Dim shift is better in just about every way I can think of. DIM SHIFT might be worth taking as it does have some situation uses, and you have the ability to toggle it off at any time as well as the ability to enter the AOE so that you can interact with the phased mobs.
But taking Blackhole when you also have Dim Shift as an option?!
No.
I would *absolutely* look at it as a great opportunity to pickup an extra power out of your chosen APP/PPP. :-)
Arg -
As Umbracane works his way up I have to start thinking about APP/PPP choices. Now my *default* is Leviathan (I mean really... Tornado AND Waterspout?! And Bile spray works perfectly with the other cones), but I know I'm going to have endurance issues and there's other very useful other functionality in the other choices.
I've been pondering /Mace for the additional -Res for single hard target, additional +def and ability to slot LOTG etc. Doesn't do a thing for my blue bar though. Mu and Primal give good end management options on the other hand. Though the Status protection in /Psi would be dang helpful.
But end management could be alleviated with Cardiac, and status protect possibly with Clarion. :: sigh ::
What would you all go with for a Dark/Storm?
Arg -
Quote:Damn, I AM spoiled by Dark/...Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
The damage proc in Mass Hyp would BREAK the sleep... unlike with Mesmerize, there's no delay in the mez effect and so it'd essentially be a weak quasi AoE power. And then it would alert all enemies (say, if Mass Hyp misses or, again, the enemies wake up right away). So I think putting the damage proc there would be a really bad idea.
ES is totally right, I suppose it's been long enough since I've played any of my Mind/ that I've gotten out of the *ahem* MINDset. Bwahaha.. *ahem* Sorry, had to be done.
So, totally scratch that, bad idea, nothing to see here, this is not the ATO placement you are looking for...
Putting the ATO set in Terrify is the other AOE location you could use it, but that one I DID think through :: roll-eyes ::, and given the total lack of dmg in the ATO set it would suck *if* you use Terrify largely as a damage power. If, on the other hand, you use Terrify largely as a soft control power I'd absolutely put the ATO set into Terrify as it will proc VERY often in a slow recharge power like Terrify while it gives you a great fear duration, recharge, endred, acc etc.
Another option would be to put the ATO into Dominate where it would up your single target damage *quite* a bit. As I said, TD isn't the worst place for it, but the proc is a good one, and I hate to see it getting so little use sitting in such an infrequently available power. Personally I'd slot it in my singe target hold, where it completely fulfills it's intended purpose. I'd totally give it a whirl in Terrify on test though.
Another reason to keep it out of Mass Hyp (just to grind the point home for myself) is that the Purple Sleep set is one of the more reasonable ones out there, and if you're planning on doing post 50 content with your Dream Warrior (LOVE the concept btw!) you might as well be keeping final build in mind as you get closer.
Arg -
Well... Can you give us any insight into how you play? Mostly teaming? Mostly Solo? Some of both?
What are your goals for the build? Are you building towards global + rech or for + ranged defense?
I tend to plan my controller builds to be primarily about + rech as so many critical powers are on really long recharge timers. For Mind/Storm that's particularly true as having multiple Tornados/Freezing Rain/Lightning Storms out make an enormous difference.
The other thing I would be building towards is +rec as /storm is a MASSIVE end hog (and has no end recovery powers) esp once you start summoning Tornado and Lightning Storm.
So, if it was me, the two things I'd be focusing on are + rech and + rec (and endred in ALL your main attack chain powers and psuedo-pet summons ). With those in mind a few things leapt out at me in your build:
1. You have Confuse, and Mass Confuse slotted with Malaise Illusions (which is a great set) but you have them both 4 slotted, when you would get +6.25 (12.5% for both) global Rech if you put one more Malaise in each them.
2. Call of the Sandman is also slotted just short of where you get the really good set bonuses, and the set is, in general, quite inexpensive.
3. You have The Numina Reg/Rec slotted in Health (which is great), but you don't have the Miricle +rec in there as well. The Miracle + rec is absurdly expensive, but what I'd suggest is buying/crafting a CHEAP Miracle IO (one of the set that's NOT in high demand, and get it at as low a level as you can) and then use the Enhancement Converters that you've no doubt been picking up in the course of playing in the last couple months to convert IN SET to get the +Miracle +rec unique IO.
4. You have the ATO set in Total Dom, which isn't the worst place it could be (Mind/ has a really hard time with setting AOE containment), but you might consider (if you haven't already), putting it in Mass Hyp instead as that would let you spam it so you get decent milage out of the +dmg proc. That would mean you don't get the bonuses out of Sandman though. Perhaps you could put the ATO proc in either Mass Hyp or Terrify and pick up the last ATO to put with the rest of the set wherever you chose to put it?
You've done quite a bit of good widgeting from a frankenslot perspective, and if that's what you want to do, that's awesome. Most of what I'm talking about above has to do with identifying what set bonuses could be helping you and where you want to focus on as you move into the end game.
Arg -
Quote:Good on ya! Too many folks would just never say anything else about it... Nice to see someone actually being mature enough to apologize.Originally Posted by Lucky666
Your right I was being a dick and I apologize. Sorry dude.
On topic: I went ahead and created a baby Ill/Dark so I can play him a bit when I need a change of pace from dancing on the edge of the knife mowing down +8/+2 spawns with Umbracane in the mid-game (33).
Arg -
Quote:Good to hear from someone that's done it a few times before.Originally Posted by Local_Man
If you can, try proc'ing out Freezing Rain. I have mine in several Stormies (and Sleet in my Ill/Cold) with Achilles -Resist, Posi Blast, Lady Gray, Impeded Swiftness and 2 Rech. The damage really adds up. I've started down that road as well, I think I only have the Lady Gray proc and a rech in there atm, but it was next (well after Umbra Beast gets 3 so I can 4 slot him with a rech pet set, Haunt has the 6 pack of Exped Reinf so I can't do that in Umbra for the +range def ) on my list to start slotting out. I know I've got an Achilles laying around somewhere, and the other procs aren't that hard to lay hands on.
::nods::Quote:Originally Posted by Psylenz
@OP
The attack pattern is working for you. In many situations especially with dark, certain opening work better than others. Some groups you can stun, others you can fear, and in some groups you want to lead off with gale because it interrupts the foes in their alpha attack activation. The -tohit in fearsome is always good even if they resist the fear component. With experience and keeping an open mind, your attack cycle will match the foes that you attack.
What I found on my Dark/Dark was that I really never bothered with any of the AOE controls... I just used the -ToHit in Fearsome Stare and Living Shadows paired with + Range Def + all def and stacked them. The -ToHit works on everything, and it works in the same cones as my other AOE attack powers, so there's no need to run in and out of melee. By abandoning any attempt at using the AOE hard controls, I can save the powers/slots for a Cone focused build and really get some impressive synergy going.
Now it's important to keep in mind that this method will NOT work against mobs that are too much higher in level than you are unless you have near cap levels of ranged def. At this point I only have about +19 ranged def, so I can more or less handle +8 spawns that are 2 levels above me, but that's about the limit.
Arg -
Been quite a while since I updated this one so I'll try to catch everyone up.
Umbracane is now up to 32 (Go get 'em Mrs O'Leary!) and The build is starting to really mature. I don't think I really realized just how MUCH I depended on the Ranged + def from sets and Fade on my Dark/Dark until I started hitting harder mobs on my Dark/Storm. The -ToHit from Hurricane is harder to use than darkest night, but that's balanced by the huge advantage it gives you as a positioning power. The REAL impact of hurricane's positioning ability won't be felt until I start summoning Tornado and watching it tear through really tightly packed +8/+1 spawns.
Once Umbra got up into the upper twenties I started collecting the Cloud Senses set to swap into my 6 slotted Fearsome Stare for the additional -ToHit, + Rech and + ranged def. The ATO set was moved into Dark Grasp (ST hold) including the proc which I reluctantly pulled out of Living Shadows. Dark/Storm really needs the + Ranged def more than Dark/Dark does, and once Tornado spins my way, I'll have more than enough dmg to offet the loss of a proc in LS.
Speaking of Procs, I've got a weather eye on the new set category: Universal damage. I haven't seen any details on it yet, but it's showing up as a set type that many powers will accept, and if there are any dmg procs in it I'll probably grab several if I can.
I've made HEAVY use of the Enhancement Converters (one of my very fav drops!) to get what I need for this build. I think Umbra has converted one or two (turned a cheap miracle enh into a miracle +recovery and the same to make a perf shifter proc) and Shadow Fallen (my Dark/Dark) has converted a few cheap cloud senses into the dmg proc for her "little brother".
As with any Stormer, Dark/Storm has end issues even before getting to the Tornado and Lightning storm summoning. To help offset that I've got 3 Endmod SO's AND a perf shifter +end proc slotted in Stamina, as well as both the Numina and the Miracle +rec uniques in Health. That's pretty much got end under control till the big summon expenses at 35 and 38, but I'm building substantial endred into everything as I know it's going to be an issue.
So far I remain very happy with the Cone triumvirate of Fearsome Stare - Living Shadows - Gale. All three have dmg procs in them (and Freezing rain has one as well), and you can really see them melting things, esp minions like butter on a hot skillet. Keeping Freezing Rain up as much as possible makes a HUGE difference for both procs and pets, and it's awesome -def does a great job of making the Vet attacks quite useful. Moving the full 6 pack of the ATO into Dark Grasp has made DG into quite an excellent ST dmg power as well, so my formerly anemic single target dmg has amped up *considerably* over the last few levels.
Haunt: I still don't think these guys get the credit they deserves they ROCK. I tried a few trial spawns where I didn't summon them and the difference was amazing. The reduction in incoming fire to me personally is quite noticeable as is the dmg and general increase in my survivability. I don't know why some folks have complained about them being fragile, but then I generally run at +8/+1. I'm guessing that folks running smaller, higher level spawns may be seeing them quite differently.
Hurricane: I haven't been able to slot this out yet, so it's still just running with an endred in the default. Absolute CORE power for me, really can't function well without it.
Umbra: Just got it again, and MAN to I love having that big puppy back at my side. I know a lot og folks hate the barking, but really, it's a great pet. Aggressive enough without being a total aggro magnet, though I do wish he would use his cone first and from a distance instead of often charging in first.
Tornado: Don't have it yet, but with the frequency with which I find myself able to blow whole spawns into really REALLY tight packed corners I just can't WAIT to see tonado rip into them like a psychotic buzzsaw.
My normal attack pattern:
Combat Jumping, Hover, Steamy Mist and Sprint (with celerity + stealth) on so I can position myself. Open with Fearsome stare -> Living Shadows -> toggle on Hurricane and off Sprint. Drop Frezzing rain where Hurricane is GOING to push the spawn and then summon Haunt and hit gale.
I hit Gale last so the +rech boost affects my Haunt rech. I immediately followup with LS shadows again to keep the -KB from wearing off and then start cycling through my cone tripple threat and doing selected single target work on dangerous LT's.
Nice thing about Fearsome stare is that I generally have long enough windows to use Aid Self if it's needed.
Anyway, Gotta get back to doing productive work, but that's early twenties to 32 in a nutshell.
Arg -
I think either will work fine, though I think /Time will work better with Fire/ than it does with /Illusion. Notice I'm NOT saying /Dark won't work awesomely well with Fire/!
The first thing that popped into my head when thinking about those combos is that the /Time toggle aura Time's Juncture, would work BEAUTIFULLY with HotFeet and melee focused build while it won't be of nearly as much use with Illusion's ranged playstyle.
That said, fluffy and the rest of the -ToHit + Def in Dark/ would be absolutely AMAZING with the imps and fluffy really shines with a melee oriented build like Fire/
Personally I'd go with /DAff with BOTH of them, but I know that what you want is a way to try both sets.
I think it comes down to which build do you think */Time* will work with best, and given the HUGE difference that Perma (or close to perms) PA makes for an Ill/... Well, I think Illusion will get a LOT more benefit out of the +rech that /Time brings to the table than Fire/ will.
So if I had to pick pairings for those pri/sec combos and use all four sets I'd prob go with Fire/Dark and Ill/Time.
If I was picking them for what I really want to play, I'd go with Fire/Dark AND Ill/Dark. But then I just looooove the new Dark sets both primary and secondary, so I'm not exactly impartial.
Arg -
Or he could go /Leviathan and get *2* pets.
I think LM's got a good point about the spectral wounds and dmg heal-back, but if you add the dmg from both the patron pet (Coralax in this case) AND Water Spout, you get a whopping great pile, ESP if you're working single hard target where WS will focus all it's dmg AND give you a substantial -Def for those single hard targets that have hefty defenses.
The pets are also fire and forget so they aren't a constant clickfest for you which lets the player focus more on what else is going on. /Rad's got so much on toggles though that that may be a lot less useful than more click power focused builds.
Arg -
Despite whatever triggered the mod intervention, (Dang you LM for bringing down the mod-hammer with being helpful and specific in your comments!) this is a great thread.
I think after I finish with leveling up my current Dark/Storm character, I'l have to do an Ill/Dark. I've dabbled with a few Illusion/ characters, but never got them up very high, and I love the general synergy I see with Ill/Dark. The only real issue I see with it for single hard target is what LM pointed out: Hard single targets that move around a lot would be a problem as they will keep moving out of the Tar patch. Without the immobs that other sets get, I can see some difficult situations.
But hey, for the chaos control approach I think it would be a fun combo, and I'd love to pair Fuffy with Illusion's stable of pets, great fun.
Arg -
::nods::
That's what I've done on all my Dark/ controllers, the GR enh are actually quite effective till 21 when the procs stop firing.
I've been thinking about the advantage the -Recharge would bring as well LM, it would effectively cut the incoming dmg in half (or is it just by 25% as 100% would cut it in half?) for regular mobs that don't resist debuffs. In any case it would serve multiple purposes with little to no slot investment just an Endred in the default slot.
Arg -
Fair enough.
From my experience playing though incarnate content with my Dark/Dark (including the third tier Interface fire dmg proc and the dmg boost from third tier Alpha Musculature), I've found that incarnate abilities make it even more a case where you have a smaller/simpler attack chain than you do on the way up.
My Dark/Dark summons her pets (up to 6), opens with Fearsome Stare and proceeds to spam Living Shadows and Bile Spray until the entire spawn is gone. It doesn't take very long.
So the actual NUMBER of powers used is quite small, mostly pet summons and the three cones. That being the case, throwing Gale into the mix (with procs) should just make it that much faster, and I can't imagine that I'll be sooo slot poor that I can't afford 2 extra slots for gale. It's not a question of more reliable or less reliable dmg, it's just a question of: "Should I add more AOE cone dmg, or not?" when phrased that way, ummm, it seems pretty simple?
I should clarify that I'm building specifically for 8X spawns at relatively low level differentials, generally +8/+1 after I get the level shift from the alpha slot I'd go up to +8/+2 maybe +3. That said, I'm expecting the dmg output from a mature /Storm to be quite a BIT higher than from /Dark simply because a Dark/Storm should be able to leverage Tornado REALLY well.
Arg -
Agreed.
If only Grav's immob had a -KB component to it, it would be awesome. Wormhole spawn into a tight knot in a corner, lock them in place and debuff them with hurricane while you slaughter them with Tornado. I know that GD has -KB, but that's just not a practical answer. I know some folks like to use the - KB-less immob to keep 'em flopping on the Freezing Rain KD patch, but it's of of strictly limited utility esp in the mid to late game.
Arg -
Well, if I'm going to spam it to get the +rech, I might as well get some dmg out of it. And with just the two slots in it it actually DOES contribute meaningful dmg. Would be a lot better if I could add the Javelin proc, but it seems just about impossible to get your hands on PVP IOs.
Arg