More on-topic of the relevance of skill, I do agree with folks here that think skill matters. Maybe what's up for grabs is what "skill" means, but in the context of this game, I think it covers a few things.
- Target selection. This spans things like selecting the right foes to cripple or eliminate first, to "aiming" cones and bursts for maximum benefit.
- Positioning. This can be something as basic as kiting, but I think more realistic "skill" is reflected in maximizing movement while ostensibly rooted. As a non-Blaster-specific example, I will often fire PBAoE ally buffs on allies in dangerous places (near multiple AVs or Monsters) by running in, pausing ever-so-briefly, then leaping away just as I activate the buff. Executed properly, I minimize my exposure to enemy AoEs and still buff my allies. Another example would be to jump across a hallway intersection to blast foes. More generic positioning choices are related to target selection, such placing slow patches at corners so foes are already clumped for AoEs as they come into view, or firing team buffs in the rough centroid of the team (perhaps with a heads-up) instead of constantly calling for the team to gather.
- Power activation timing and sequencing. By paying attention to when powers recharge, you can still try to optimize your attack chain while needing to insert non-damaging powers. As an example, my Dark/Psi Defender has to occasionally fire Subdue to maintain a non-stop attack chain, but it's got the worst DPA of all her attacks. If I need to cast Tar Patch, Howling Twilight or some other non-damaging Dark Miasma power, I try to wait until Subdue's place in the chain comes up. Another example would be knowing when it's optimal to activate Dull Pain (around 50% health) rather than firing it whenever its recharged.
Some time back there was a thread about what people thought "skill" in an MMO was about, and I defined my version of it as recognizing "fragile" situations (ones that are more likely to get out of player control and lead to wipe) and using appropriate powers or other tools (like inspirations) suited for "stabilizing" such situations.
If the powers in question have long recharge times or other frequent-use restrictions, I consider it a mark of a good player that they tend to save those powers for emergencies instead of firing them willy-nilly. Consider the prisoner phase in the BAF - I've seen many a player fire judgement powers at a juicy spawn of prisoners when there was little danger of that spawn getting past other defenses. While that's gratifying, I'd rather save my judgement for a large spawn of prisoners that's already gotten past the other defenses.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
I'll agree there may be more as well. The problem is even forgetting about incarnate powers and the vast increase in IO power. In that time frame we got inherent fitness and insp combining.
|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Some other critters got taunt too, but I think most of them were new critters, such as the black knights in Night Ward. To be honest, I think some of the Incarnate Tsoo are supposed to be taunting us, but it doesn't seem to work. (They play the animation and we play the "hit" effect, but nothing else happens.)
It feels a bit like I'm forgetting some noticed AI change since I16, but I agree, even if that's true, it's not that noticeable in the scheme of things, or I'd probably remember it. |
Agreed. I certainly don't want to suggest I think that the NPCs have even been close keeping pace with us, all our increases in power taken in total. Like I said, it was a nit-pick about the comment that they haven't gotten harder for us to win against. They have, if just a bit. (I actually think the Malta Titan changes were kind of brutal, but on average, across all levels? That doesn't count for much.)
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Just how often do those occur ? To take your baf example I can't think of a time where I have seen the prisoner escape fail to stop everyone because someone used a judgement. I have seen prisoners escape because people just weren't paying attention.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
More on-topic of the relevance of skill, I do agree with folks here that think skill matters. Maybe what's up for grabs is what "skill" means, but in the context of this game, I think it covers a few things.
Some time back there was a thread about what people thought "skill" in an MMO was about, and I defined my version of it as recognizing "fragile" situations (ones that are more likely to get out of player control and lead to wipe) and using appropriate powers or other tools (like inspirations) suited for "stabilizing" such situations. If the powers in question have long recharge times or other frequent-use restrictions, I consider it a mark of a good player that they tend to save those powers for emergencies instead of firing them willy-nilly. Consider the prisoner phase in the BAF - I've seen many a player fire judgement powers at a juicy spawn of prisoners when there was little danger of that spawn getting past other defenses. While that's gratifying, I'd rather save my judgement for a large spawn of prisoners that's already gotten past the other defenses. |
Combat jumping in and out of melee is something you consider a big skill ?
Even if you grant that items you cite are skills that have a large impact on the game just how long would you expect a person of average intelligence to pick them up ? A day, a week ? A month ?
I have been playing golf for nearly 50 years and there are skills i doubt I will ever be good at, let alone master. I can't think of a technique in this game that has that kind of staying power.
Edit: I take that back there is base building
Um I have failed at time because I couldn't kill the prisoner before he reached the door and my lockdown power didn't work on him/her.
Quote:
I'd like to see those fifty lines of code.
|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
It takes about 50 lines of code to play a character in this game.
|
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
Who said anything about it failing? I consider it a weak showing if one gets out. Solid play there gets people a badge and/or an extra Astral Merit.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Just how often do those occur ? To take your baf example I can't think of a time where I have seen the prisoner escape fail to stop everyone because someone used a judgement. I have seen prisoners escape because people just weren't paying attention.
|
I regularly end up in leagues that practically leap for joy if no prisoners escape. I'm always appalled at that - I consider no escape BAFs standard and ones where one gets away sub-par. (I realize sometimes it just happens, but I don't think it should be normal.)
Quote:
| Combat jumping in and out of melee is something you consider a big skill? |
Quote:
| Even if you grant that items you cite are skills that have a large impact on the game just how long would you expect a person of average intelligence to pick them up ? A day, a week ? A month ? |
Quote:
| I have been playing golf for nearly 50 years and there are skills i doubt I will ever be good at, let alone master. I can't think of a technique in this game that has that kind of staying power. |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
You just did.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Who said anything about it failing? I consider it a weak showing if one gets out. Solid play there gets people a badge and/or an extra Astral Merit.
|
I certainly did not.
" seen the prisoner escape fail to stop everyone because someone used a judgement"
I still would love to know how you can say you have lost that because someone used a judgement at the wrong time.
Quote:
| No. I said it showed skill. Really, can you have a conversation without twisting the conversation? |
Re: Skill, walking is a skill, sitting in a chair is a skill, logging into the game is a skill. The whole conversation is about depth of skill.
Quote:
Shoot me an email, I will be back home by Monday and send them to you.
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I'd like to see those fifty lines of code.
|
Quote:
Kind of expected. Not really your fault at all.
|
Originally Posted by Tater Todd
Um I have failed at time because I couldn't kill the prisoner before he reached the door and my lockdown power didn't work on him/her.
|
Quote:
Within the code? Maybe not a lot.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
It takes about 50 lines of code to play a character in this game. Admittedly that is stacked on top of libraries. Just how much decision making do you think that encapsulates ?
|
When deciding whether to configure the code this way, rather than any of those ten thousand possible ways? Quite a lot. Not to even mention the nontrivial knowledge required to be able to make useful code in the first place.
I don't re-calculate from scratch what the optimal behavior is in every situation in-game. I doubt many people do. A lot of behavior is stuff we've practiced or learned before, and using them in play consists largely of repeating or combining patterns. But you have to know the pattern in the first place to repeat it. An unskilled player doesn't know the patterns, or knows bad ones. Good use of inspirations and temp powers makes an incredibly huge difference to performance, for example, and the way players use inspirations is all over the map. Some players just mash f1-f5 whenever they hit a tough spot, some hoard inspirations and basically never use them, some outright forget they have inspirations most of the time, some meticulously plan and control their inspiration supply and usage, some people (ab)use /auctionhouse to have a near-unlimited supply of powerful inspirations. And all of those behaviors lead to significantly different performance.
Again, the claim you're making is (IMX) wildly counterfactual. An individual player's capabilities makes a huge difference. Even just my own level of focus makes a huge difference, and there's presumably no gap in knowledge or experience between myself and myself. You can keep arguing for your theory, if you want, but every piece of actual evidence I have says you're wrong.
Quote:
Is English your second language?
|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
You just did.
I certainly did not. " seen the prisoner escape fail to stop everyone because someone used a judgement" |
Quote:
I don't think you have covered everything. |
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Could you elaborate ?
What I see here are 1. People who didn't think blasters needed buffing and didn't want a buff. 2. People who didn't think blasters needed buffing but were happy to get one. 3. People who thought blasters needed buffing but didn't like the nature of the buffs. 4. People who thought blasters needed buffing and were happy with the buffs. |
I think if it was a goal to have blasters as easy to play as the other ATs then they needed a buff, but that was just people seeking a foolish consistency. Not everything has to be the same and when you try to make everything the same you alienate people that cherished the differences.
When you talk about depth to the game I agree, but if you increase the power of blasters in the game you take away part of the skill development needed to play them.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Garent
Is English your second language?
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
No. I said it showed skill. Really, can you have a conversation without twisting the conversation? |
Why do people think splitting hairs and being obstinate scores points in arguments ?
Quote:
Your issue isn't really with blasters being buffed though. Your issue is with the difficulty level of the entire game. This is a perfectly valid issue, and is one that I share. Pushing for blasters to be the final hold out of a trinity based game that hasn't existed for years isn't the way to address that issue though. It's neither the most efficient way of addressing the issue nor is it one with a chance of happening.
|
Originally Posted by B_L_Angel
I think if it was a goal to have blasters as easy to play as the other ATs then they needed a buff
|
Quote:
If that was the goal then it would have taken some of the special and fun out of this game. The condescension and snark doesn't help you make a point.
|
Originally Posted by Garent
Yes, it was in fact the goal to make blasters be as powerful at all level ranges as other archetypes, as they were intended to be and advertised to be from day one. If you still do not understand the reasons that were given in this thread and others and continue to believe it's consistency for consistency's sake, then I doubt there's anything anyone can say to change that.
|
I deleted the post you quoted and made a new one because it came off way more confrontational than I wanted it to. Sorry about that.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Garent
Your issue isn't really with blasters being buffed though. Your issue is with the difficulty level of the entire game. This is a perfectly valid issue, and is one that I share. Pushing for blasters to be the final hold out of a trinity based game that hasn't existed for years isn't the way to address that issue though. It's neither the most efficient way of addressing the issue nor is it one with a chance of happening.
|
now that is something.I don't see them as part of DPS-Aggro Control-Healer. What I see them as is just another part of the game to explore. The same way the Rogue Isles were new territory or Praetoria was. You could do anything in the game with blasters and my main was proof of it. 1387 badges + 8 extra from Katie. I know my blaster was hardly the only one with a high total.
I will agree that there were problems with blasters. You can't really argue with them being abandoned. You also can't deny the fact that they were still the number 3 most popular toon in the game. So who do you appeal to ? The people that dropped blasters to play other things that they liked or the people that really enjoyed their blasters ?
Quote:
I don't believe it's necessary to alienate either group. I fully believe that it's possible to buff blasters in such a way that they continue to appeal to the second group while bringing back the people who were pushed away because they realized they could do better things on other characters with the same amount of effort. I didn't fully support ANY of the proposed blaster changes, but I definitely supported blaster changes in general.
|
Originally Posted by B_L_Angel
So who do you appeal to ? The people that dropped blasters to play other things that they liked or the people that really enjoyed their blasters ?
|
Quote:
Dude. What Garent said.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
You just did.
I certainly did not. " seen the prisoner escape fail to stop everyone because someone used a judgement" |
"Fail to stop everyone," meaning everyone was not stopped. Which means one or more prisoners escaped. Letting twenty prisoners escape is certainly a subset of letting some prisoners escape, but it's not what I meant, and I am flummoxed that you concluded I meant what you insist I must have meant.
I would describe letting twenty prisoners escape as "failing the trial at the prisoner escape phase," or something like that.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Apparently not at all levels, though. Now, we weren't shown all the data, but I'd be willing to bet that there are other ATs have variations in popularity with level. However, it was made clear that Blaster popularity decayed noticeably enough with higher level that the devs called it out. Since all characters gain levels, if the Blaster AT was the only one that showed appreciable abandonment as you went up levels, that still seems like an issue worth solving, even if the number of Blasters across all levels rated highly.|
Originally Posted by B_L_Angel
You also can't deny the fact that they were still the number 3 most popular toon in the game.
|
Quote:
| So who do you appeal to ? The people that dropped blasters to play other things that they liked or the people that really enjoyed their blasters ? |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I wished that you could "like" posts sometimes lol.
Quote:
You appeal to sanity. There's an XP curve that is based on average performance. Critter XP has been rebalanced around that metric at least twice since release. You note that every archetype generates an average reward earning rate very roughly around the same rate, the same rate that your reward system is balanced around. Every archetype except one. So you fix it. Period, end of story.|
Originally Posted by B_L_Angel
I will agree that there were problems with blasters. You can't really argue with them being abandoned. You also can't deny the fact that they were still the number 3 most popular toon in the game. So who do you appeal to ? The people that dropped blasters to play other things that they liked or the people that really enjoyed their blasters ?
|
There's no need to justify fixing something your own design rules say is broken. The justification that's required is for explicitly *not* fixing something your own design rules say is broken, and when it comes to the fundamental metric of player reward earning rate, that justification has an extremely high hurdle.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
What are the acceptable losses for making things conform to design rules ?
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
There's no need to justify fixing something your own design rules say is broken. The justification that's required is for explicitly *not* fixing something your own design rules say is broken, and when it comes to the fundamental metric of player reward earning rate, that justification has an extremely high hurdle. |
It feels a bit like I'm forgetting some noticed AI change since I16, but I agree, even if that's true, it's not that noticeable in the scheme of things, or I'd probably remember it.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA