Beasts/sonic damage potential/survivability?
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2012-08-28 23:07 in Masterminds
beast are defense based, you'll be better of with defense set like time or traps.
sonic isn't suitable for real powerplay because its lack of healing.
personal attacks are bad, bad, bad idea. they look nice but don't benefit you on a long run. they just waste on skills, slots and endurance, which is at all times very short.
take instead scorpion shield, tough/weave and maneuvers/assault, believe me, you will be much more happy.
Not sure if we're just talking about Beast/ in this thread but....
The only place I would definitely argue that personal attacks are not a waste on a Mastermind is with Demon/. AOE -res, plus 2 single target -res can multiply you pets damage. The AOE - res is especially tasty.
Edit: So yeah...forget beast! (honestly I made a beast Praetorian when they first came out with the set, I don't know if it was being in Pretoria, or being beast but he got abandoned pretty quickly.)
Motivation is the art of getting people to do what you want them to do because they want to do it.
In the early levels the personal attacks are useful because they build Pack Mentality. Later levels your pets build enough to make the personal attacks less desirable.
And yes your pets are def based, but there is nothing wrong with some layered mitigation. Though you may want to dip into the medicine pool for assistance.
To say that Beasts are defense based is not entirely accurate.
Looking at my attributes right now, I see
Dire Wolf with 29.88% s/l/c resists, 12.45% r/m/aoe def
Lions with 29.76% s/l/c resists, 12.45% r/m/aoe def
Wolves with 18.53 s/l/c resists, 11.12% r/m/aoe def
Periodically each Lioness will give a buff of 6% def that has about a 30 second duration and something like 45 second downtime. Fortify Pack of course will grant more defense as well.
With Sonic, the resists become about 70% for s/l/c, then get another 10% from Sovereign Right and that's pretty darn sturdy.
So, just to be clear, I'm not saying "Beasts don't have defense" I'm just saying it's not sufficient to say they are just "defense based" though.
Also, Demons isn't the only primary with worthy attacks, Beast Mastery does too, the secondary effects are pretty nice and provide -fly (almost necessary against certain mobs for these meleeing pets), -def, slow. I definitely advise 2 of the attacks for Beasts, including the aoe. The downside with Sonic is that, while it may not be "active" it is quite endurance intensive. I'm going to guess (I don't have hands-on experience with this combo, though I do with both powersets) spamming attacks and keeping the 2 main toggles going is a challenge.
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
Beasts are both. That's one of the reasons they work well with a lot of different support sets, you can stack either defense or res up pretty easily on them.
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Thanks for posting the numbers so I didn't have to.|
Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
To say that Beasts are defense based is not entirely accurate.
Looking at my attributes right now, I see Dire Wolf with 29.88% s/l/c resists, 12.45% r/m/aoe def Lions with 29.76% s/l/c resists, 12.45% r/m/aoe def Wolves with 18.53 s/l/c resists, 11.12% r/m/aoe def Periodically each Lioness will give a buff of 6% def that has about a 30 second duration and something like 45 second downtime. Fortify Pack of course will grant more defense as well. With Sonic, the resists become about 70% for s/l/c, then get another 10% from Sovereign Right and that's pretty darn sturdy. So, just to be clear, I'm not saying "Beasts don't have defense" I'm just saying it's not sufficient to say they are just "defense based" though. Also, Demons isn't the only primary with worthy attacks, Beast Mastery does too, the secondary effects are pretty nice and provide -fly (almost necessary against certain mobs for these meleeing pets), -def, slow. I definitely advise 2 of the attacks for Beasts, including the aoe. The downside with Sonic is that, while it may not be "active" it is quite endurance intensive. I'm going to guess (I don't have hands-on experience with this combo, though I do with both powersets) spamming attacks and keeping the 2 main toggles going is a challenge. |
Beasts are a very sturdy, albeit low damage, set. Sonic can help with the damage, especially against single targets, with -res, as well as nearly hardcapping the pets with the res proc. It is a pretty good pairing, and one that I've taken up to 45 so far. The argument can be made to go with Thermal over Sonic. Thermal will give significantly less resistance, but it has heals and some very good debuffs. I just didn't want to set my animals on fire.
going for resist means that they will get hit and need to be healed. sonic can not heal. hence they die A LOT.
resistance debuff has nearly every secondary set, along with reg debuff and heals.
going for defense means they likely not going to be hit at all.
lets say beat/time: 12.45% base, 13 from farsight, 10 from procs, 4 from maneuvers and we have 39,45. i don't know exact numbers from fortify, but i guess it will be near to def cap in total. plus the lioness buff will probably make them overcap. that's a team of 6 tanks. AND you have heals AND debuffs.
the personal attacks are at all times waste of slots. you will not have enough endurance to maintain the support AND attacking mobs. even with all possible endurance procs on my /time mastermind sometimes i just cant wait untill chronoshift cooldown ready for endurance boost. using personal attacks only means that you endurance bar will be empty. and also you will have drawn attention to you and get hit. which is rather very bad idea.
believe it or not, in later gameplay you will need a lot of skills from powerpools.
hasten/superspeed, boxing/tough/weave, maneuvers/assault/tactics are mandatory once you get to 50 and starting trials. otherwise you will be more dead then alive.
No one is saying Sonic is better than Time. What tey are saying is that Beasts are not just defense based, they are both.
And if you get Mace Mastery you don't need tough/weave/boxing at all. Superspeed is optional as well, and I don't have Assault for endurance reasons.
Also you're only getting 5% def from the procs, since there is no plce to slot the recharge intensive one. You do, however, also have the 10-15 (with catalyst)% proc from the mastermind ATO.
And yes, Fortify Pack helps a lot.
The personal attacks for Beast are actually pretty good. The Hawk is really useful for the knockdown and -fly, and the Ravens are good for racking up Pack mentality in early levels. Each stack is a 2% damage boost and the Ravens commonly give 3 to 4 stacks, so that's a good 6-8% damage boost, not to mention the boost to Fortify Pack. For most sets (especially ninjas, mercs, and thugs) the personal attacks are pretty much useless, but in this case they are not.
Yes, Beast/Time would be more sturdy than Beast/Sonic, however, Beast/Sonic can still be good. Most of the Beasts have a self heal, and Fortify Pack gives massive amounts of regen. You can also grab Aid Other. Yes, the lack of an AoE heal is still very noticeable, but it can be worked around.
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well, thugs for example also have a mix of defense and resistance. what gives it? nothing, unless they paired with the secondary, that allow you to make weak defense into strong one. and even strong defense still be nothing without support heals. that's the point.|
Originally Posted by Mad Grim
No one is saying Sonic is better than Time. What tey are saying is that Beasts are not just defense based, they are both.
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beasts have a bit of resistance on s/l, so what? there enough mobs that do other types of damage. what will you do then? defense line will prevent all types instead. its way better.
btw, 18% res isn't much to talk of, demons have around 30%.
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Originally Posted by Mad Grim
And if you get Mace Mastery you don't need tough/weave/boxing at all. Superspeed is optional as well, and I don't have Assault for endurance reasons.
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you need superspeed for later gameplay. it allow you to rush missions and to move fast during the trials and speedy tf/sf.
assault toggle will earn you more of total damage output then all the personal attacks. nearly all my mms have it and happy about it. so choose wisely where do you want to spend your endurance, where you get the most of it.
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Originally Posted by Mad Grim
The Hawk is really useful for the knockdown and -fly, and the Ravens are good for racking up Pack mentality in early levels.
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early levels are bad excuse for keeping useless skills and be forced to respec later to get rid of it. a respec isn't so easy to get by.
btw. you worry about getting faster the damage boost cap from pack, as if the whole team of 6 pet wouldn't do it later by themselves. but don't have enough endurance for a 11,25% permanent damage buff. there is a hole in your logic.
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Originally Posted by Mad Grim
Yes, Beast/Time would be more sturdy than Beast/Sonic, however, Beast/Sonic can still be good.
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the only exception of this rule is traps and only because of caltrops and beacon as a combined mitigation means.
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Originally Posted by Mad Grim
Most of the Beasts have a self heal, and Fortify Pack gives massive amounts of regen. You can also grab Aid Other. Yes, the lack of an AoE heal is still very noticeable, but it can be worked around.
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lick wounds on lioness has a 60 sec cooldown...
will of the wild on dire wolf 120....
minor wolves no heals at all.
forget about them, they won't be of use.
speaking of practice, i've got demon/thermal mm with wooping 80% s/l resistance and all other being around 50% on pets and still being busy to heal them despite their build in AoE heals, which btw has only a 30 sec cooldown.
Fortify Pack can be easily perma'd.
Saying they won't be of any use because of a semi-long cooldown is silly. "Farsight has a 240 second cooldown! It's useless!" You saying they won't be of any use is meaningless. As I said, I have a 45 Beast/Sonic and they are very much of use.
Yes, the Fire Demon (forget his name at the moment) has an AoE and ST heal. But he is the only one with heals. And we're also talking about what is widely considered one of the best sets compared to a set that is about average.
Massive amounts of permanent regen, self heals (which the Alpha Wolf has as well) along with nearly hardcapped resistance makes for fairly sturdy pets. Heals are good, AoE heals are a godsend, but just because a set does not have them doesn't make it useless.
Web envelope and web cocoon require taking Mace Mastery, which on a Beast/Sonic is not a given. Also you cannot get them until level 35. Call Hawk is extremely early and really useful.
... In what way is a respec hard to come by? You get dozens from the rewards system and the trials are cakewalks. You even get one for completing the first part of a Patron arc. I'm never without a multitude of respecs to use even on new characters.
The build that forgoes Assault is my Ninja/Time/Mace, who took no personal attacks. I'd love to use Assault, but between Maneuvers, Combat Jumping, Acrobatics, Tactics, Time's Juncture, Scorpion Shield... just can't. And yes, he is FAR above the soft cap without ever touching the fighting pool. 55% to S/L/E. He's Incarnate soft capped with Barrier.
Stealthing missions on my MMs is something I just don't do. So Superspeed is of no use to me. Even on non-MMs I tend to avoid speedrunning TFs/SFs. So I take the power that I prefer: Superjump.
18% damage resistance is only not worth talking about if you think that taking 18% less damage from most attacks is useless, which quite frankly is silly. The point is not whether defense or resistance is more useful, the point is Beasts have both in substantial quantities. That is the point. They are mixed, just ignoring the resistance doesn't make it go away and make them defense based.
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yeah, of course. as if a build without def cap and scorpion shield would be viable.|
Originally Posted by Mad Grim
Web envelope and web cocoon require taking Mace Mastery, which on a Beast/Sonic is not a given. Also you cannot get them until level 35. Call Hawk is extremely early and really useful.
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then how many flying mobs do you encounter that won't come along to you? all of them will fire some rounds from a far and then close up in to melee range. that how mob AI work.
in case you don't know, dire wolf has -fly. two -fly skills are one too many.
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Originally Posted by Mad Grim
... In what way is a respec hard to come by? You get dozens from the rewards system and the trials are cakewalks. You even get one for completing the first part of a Patron arc. I'm never without a multitude of respecs to use even on new characters.
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Originally Posted by Mad Grim
He's Incarnate soft capped with Barrier.
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if you need incarnates to have a decent toon.... well, i am speechless, to say it politely.
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Originally Posted by Mad Grim
Stealthing missions on my MMs is something I just don't do. So Superspeed is of no use to me. Even on non-MMs I tend to avoid speedrunning TFs/SFs. So I take the power that I prefer: Superjump.
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we've done for ex. couple of LRSF in 17 minutes or less. and doing about 4-5 tf/sf on an evening. that's power play, not walking about for relaxing.
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Originally Posted by Mad Grim
18% damage resistance is only not worth talking about if you think that taking 18% less damage from most attacks is useless, which quite frankly is silly.
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Originally Posted by Mad Grim
The point is not whether defense or resistance is more useful, the point is Beasts have both in substantial quantities. That is the point. They are mixed, just ignoring the resistance doesn't make it go away and make them defense based.
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what is it where beast excel? nowhere. a bit of anything.
def cap? unreachable.
regen? massive like what? like of regen scrapper? or willpower brute?
self heals that have 1 to 2 min cooldown. yeah, sure, whatever.
the bots are even better, their cooldown is only 30 sec and no one would rely on it as the only heal.
res? like i told, with deamons/thermal and their pretty decent base res and faster AoE heals i still need to heal them. and they still die.
like i said, try to kill a AV or GM solo. or try alone to hold the ground inside of the keyes warehouses. without the incarnate clickies and level shifts.
or try to hold alone the whole ambush spawn during ITF on +4x8.
"where have you been back there? watch for ambushes! - yeah, have seen them... dead."
the heck, set a mission to +4x8 and go for it alone. then we can talk how useful /sonic is.
Now I realize, I've been troll'd. No one could possibly be this ignorant without doing it on purpose. Carry on.
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you speaking of yourself? didn't you? |
Originally Posted by Mad Grim
Now I realize, I've been troll'd. No one could possibly be this ignorant without doing it on purpose.
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No, I think he's talking about you. And to be honest, while you are making some decent points, I can see why he says it, because you really are kinda coming across like a jerk, to the point where *I'm* getting annoyed reading it and I'm not even part of the conversation. If that's not your intention, you might want to work on your writing skills a bit.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
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Once I read this|
Originally Posted by Mad Grim
Now I realize, I've been troll'd. No one could possibly be this ignorant without doing it on purpose. Carry on.
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| the personal attacks are at all times waste of slots... and also you will have drawn attention to you and get hit. which is rather very bad idea. |
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
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Your standards for baseline character performance are too high. You don't gauge a character's overall performance by testing the most extreme high-end scenarios because you get a very skewed perception of performance at virtually every other level, which is what is happening in your case. The truth is, most character's can't do that pre-Incarnates.|
Originally Posted by kalashnikow
like i said, try to kill a AV or GM solo. or try alone to hold the ground inside of the keyes warehouses. without the incarnate clickies and level shifts.
or try to hold alone the whole ambush spawn during ITF on +4x8. "where have you been back there? watch for ambushes! - yeah, have seen them... dead." the heck, set a mission to +4x8 and go for it alone. then we can talk how useful /sonic is. |
Beasts/Sonic is a fine combo. Mine is softcapped to S/L with Mace Mastery (which you suggest to be absolutely necessary - I regret to inform you that softcapped defenses are not as crucial as you suggest). What gets through my (and my pets') defense is easily softened by /Sonic's resists. And for what gets through those resists, I've got Rebirth for the occasional patch-up. For those non-Incarnate characters, Fortify Pack is good enough for getting you through a fight, and if you need it for surviving then you're not playing Beast Mastery with any degree of efficiency. It is meant to be layered in when things go wrong. And if you throw in Heal Other (which I had absolutely zero need to do the entire way to 50 and beyond) then you've got yourself another tool in your arsenal. What is very nice about Beasts/Sonic is that while you may not have a hugely vast toolkit available, you have exactly enough to get through each fight with some strategic commanding and layering of abilities. Your -resists only increase your damage further (with the -res proc added into Call Ravens, you can get around -65% resists easy with Liquefy there for when things get really bad), and both Pack Mentality and Fortify Pack are there to push you even further. Now you take this home and throw in Assault. Baby, you've got a stew goin'.
I wish people would go into these types of threads and discuss performance without talking in extreme negatives like, "This combo can't do this and can't do that!" without having experience with the combo themselves.
What about what the combo can do?
I can vouch that a decently built Beasts/Sonic can get through literally any content in this game at a reasonable setting. And it can do it while being fun, depending on your version of fun. Your version of fun seems to be 'extreme outliers only'. Maybe you should have opened with that caveat so that people would know to take what you're saying with abnormally large grains of salt.
Reading the misinformation and exaggeration in this thread makes me want to write up a guide on Beasts/Sonic.
Wild Streak - Lv. 50(+3) Beast Mastery/Sonic Resonance Mastermind, Amnesty - Lv. 50 Staff Fighting/Dark Armor Stalker
Hello,
I'm a returning player from a while ago and I was wondering how this combination performs in both damage and survivability. Are the personal attacks very necessary? If so, then a secondary that isn't very active like sonic would be a good fit right? Most of the pets eventually can heal themselves and fortify pack would help a lot w/ any survivability issues.