i24 and Energy Melee
By
Blue_Centurion,
Posted on: 2012-07-19 11:00 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Probably won't get that much looked at, it's a end heavy set.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Huh, so it does... I stand by my assessment - this shouldn't be, and I wouldn't be sad or even surprised to see that go, as well. Stone Melee can probably do with a look in general.
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| You're not going to get the old animation back. Ever. You may get a faster animation for it, but it won't be the old one. And I, for one, DON'T want the old animation back. Yeah, the attack was cheap, I admit, but even then I still hated the animation. You can't have by far the strongest attack in the set be a simple no-effect tap on the shoulder. I feel the same way about Clobber, for reference. That power needs a better animation, or at least a visually stronger effect. It just makes Shatter feel anaemic when it takes almost twice as long but hits nowhere near as hard. Sure, it's AoE, but that doesn't stop Cleave and Head Splitter from being AoE AND feeling awesome as their respective sets' heaviest hitters. |
The sfx for ET helped a lot with the old animation, nice, loud thud-like sound.
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| So? Yes, they're slow. Not all sets can be fast. In fact, I don't WANT all sets to be fast. Since my very fist days playing this game, I've wanted to see your typical "big guy" sets that are very slow, but hit very hard. Your Juggernaut vs. Spider-Man, if you will. If anything, I really dislike people's continual insistence that every Brute set should comprise of small, fast attacks. I get that this builds Fury, but if that's the case, then I'd rather see slow attacks build more fury than just make all attacks fast. |
We technically have our "big guy" set, Titan Weapons.
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This and port it to scrappers/stalkers/brutes
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Originally Posted by Tater Todd
Fix Ice Melee first please lol.
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I'll always be a "Champion" at heart. My server away from home.
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson
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Increase damage of Stun to between Bone Smasher and Total Focus
Make Total Focus's stun AoE
Change the animation of Energy Transfer to a very fast strike, then recoil from the self damage. Keep the animation the same length, just make it so the damage is out there ASAP then a delay before you can attack again.
That's what I'd do.
I am the Blaster, I have filled the role of Tank, Controller and Defender
Sometimes all at once.
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Indeed. Self damage is trivial. ET is a good power, not only because of high damage, but also low endurance cost. Really, there are power sets that are much more in need of looking at (like Ice melee).|
Originally Posted by Starflier
Agreed. The self-damage isn't noticeable, and I'd rather not have a boost in end cost and cut in damage just to have a pittance of self-damage removed.
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Given how horrible some of the suggestions are in this thread, I would much, much rather the devs left Energy Melee alone.
I really should do something about this signature.
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Part of developing new content is creating new tactical challenges to continually test players and develop their skills.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I should be able to trounce a mastermind's minions until I make my way to him, whereupon the real fight should start. Trouble is, the game does this less and less often as new content is developed. Pretty much the only place you'll see regular fights is in pre-I8 content.
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Or, to put it another way, the masterminds are learning - why aren't you?
I really should do something about this signature.
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That's kind of my point. It's an end-heavy set that goes thematically with one of the most end-heavy secondaries in the game. Even Dark/Dark isn't as bad because Dark Melee has Dark Consumption to help with the end drain somewhat.|
Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
Probably won't get that much looked at, it's a end heavy set.
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Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
I know we'll never get the old animation back, but it was just something that would appease people who hate the "OH MY GOD MY HANDS ARE GLOWING!" animation. I've only liked that animation for Thunderous Blast myself...and seems stupid on Bitter Freeze Ray =\
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Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
Not all sets need to be fast, but EM continues to suffer because its best attacks are slow as crap and the rest of the set is "meh" at best...like Psionic Assault before its makeover. Another possible change is that they could turn Total Focus into a PBAoE, tweak the damage and keep the Mag 3 stun.
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Also, all of my calculations use scale damage for powers, with Energy Punch being a scale 1.0 damage attack (0.7 smashing, 0.3 energy) and Energy Transfer being a 4.56 scale damage attack (1.57 smashing, 3.0 energy).
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Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
We technically have our "big guy" set, Titan Weapons.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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This conversation is taking me back to the motivationms of why I run the characters I do. I started running exclusively villains. Two reasons, I love Brutes and I love villains. This was back in the day of slingshot leveling and bridging. AND me just using SOs exclusively. So that puts me on Mayhem missions as the door breaker and beachhead holder for teams when the LB will just pour into the bank, sometimes over my level significantly. Yeah, I started to build to turtle. Even back then I could see where the Devs were going with hard fights. Tough opponents, zerging, and many different attacks to find your weakness. It is also why Invulnerability Brutes are still one of my favorites. Just writing this makes me want to go start another one, in fact I am going to go redside and do that for old times sake. (I normally run Blueside Virtue just for the "salmon run" grouping availability.) But enough digression. My last example is a SS/Invul Brute I ran some years ago. I forget my exact level, I think it was high 20s, maybe low 30s. I got on a team led by a SS/Invul brute 5 level above me. This was back in the day of "bridging". I really tried to keep up and be an effective second tank. 3 missions in the guy/girl checked me out. "Hey, these spawns are way over your level, I didn't even notice, you're doing great!" Yeah, SO'd Invul Brutes can do that. A well built I/O'd Invul Brute is a joy to run. I favor a good amount of reactive armor 4 piece (all the res ones) in my Invul builds, a few LOTG 3 piece sets for efficiency, one or two Kinetic Combats, some Globals/Procs, and depending on attack set a few other sets to round out the build and tighten it up. Always a hoot, never disappoints. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I agree, no minion or lieutenant - singular - is usually a problem. One on one, even bosses aren't that bad. The trouble is those almost never come alone. A +0x2 spawn, which is what I play, tends to spawn one or two lieutenants with between two and five minions. For some factions this isn't a problem, but for a lot of the newer ones - DUST, IDF, etc. - this can be quite deadly. And if it were just that, I wouldn't have a problem, but recent game design likes to toss multiple spawns on me at the same time. Stacking ambushes, "large" spawns (that end up x+2 to what I'm set to), multiple boss fights...
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In closing, and the point of the above graph: One or two LTs? Because they are Dust? I am talking about building to hold the door in a mayhem for waves of Longbow, with MANY Lts, all with special powers. That is on SOs. DUST? Seriously. I have run the arcs in 1st ward on an Invul, and on a willpower. I saw DUST there. I fought DUST there. Meh, they didnt really stand out as the boogeyman, but I believe you struggled with them. Of course my builds I ran through there were "Cadillac" even at level 20-30, with some nice set bonuses. But still, I honestly do not understand why we are still discussing a Brute (even an SO'd one) being apprehensive around 1-2 Lts and 2-5 minions at +0. I believe you struggle with it, I just do not understand why.
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I couldn't begin to tell you. Incoming damage simply outstrips my ability to resist it. Sure, in the 40s and up I can generally handle large spawns without too much trouble, but not in prolonged fights, and certainly not multiple 8-man spawns by myself, not without chugging all my large inspirations or using Unstoppable or some such.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
But still, I honestly do not understand why we are still discussing a Brute (even an SO'd one) being apprehensive around 1-2 Lts and 2-5 minions at +0. I believe you struggle with it, I just do not understand why.
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I probably don't build for "turtling" as you do, but this never used to be a problem back in I7 and I8. I don't build for a zillion pool powers, but again - this was never a problem in the old days. It is a problem now with enemies using more exotic damage types, stronger debuffs and coming in larger numbers. Even at the best of times, a couple of Rikti spawns will put me in the red unless I'm playing Electric Armour.
And don't even get me started on the 64% base to-hit of Incarnate enemies. It's the exact same reason I stopped playing Diablo 2, which is to say the game expects me to have a specific build and balances accordingly, putting me in the position of having to build a lot better just to break even.
*edit*
I should also point out that I build for damage before I build for defence. Not exclusively, but mostly. This is one of the primary reasons why I stopped playing Dominators - I had to build them like Controllers in order to be effective. Faced with the choice of not building for damage or playing an AT and building for damage, I pick the latter.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Yeah, if I built with your goals I would also faceplant a LOT more. I am "stuck" with Invul and Willpower on almost all my builds. I did run a Scrapper Elec/Elec that was very very vicious. Good at eating spawns too. Not a boss killer, I finally abandoned him. I am very "stuck" to the number of powersets I run. I am constantly 50ing new builds trying to add more to my "stable" of possibilities, but few make the cut. I look forward to the new Bio Armor, although it has no Def Debuff Resist, usually a red flag. I run Blasters a bit, and in between my constant whining I am learning the other end of the "edge" playing. How much i can pound a group before they whip around and i faceplant. That is a skill that serves a squishier Brute very well. I ran a ss/fire Brute when it was a FOTM. He was my "ghetto blaster" and ROTP was actually part of my attack chain on him. Not necessarilyt efficient, but danged funny. Any Brute or Scrapper with the lighter armors will need to play it careful. Frustrating especially on a Brute when you need the agro. THe art of inspiration management helps. My Elec/Elec scrapper farmed AE for Freakshow (he was an AoE monster) but I had his resists and defenses displayed and kept eating sm oranges and purps to keep him pegged, combining what was coming in for future needs. The Incarnate trials are frustrating, I hate it when they move the goalposts. But there are gamechanging powers in the Incarnate stuff that give back. Check out the Rebirth power with +crapton Regen. A truly beautiful panic button. gl.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I probably don't build for "turtling" as you do, but this never used to be a problem back in I7 and I8. I don't build for a zillion pool powers, but again - this was never a problem in the old days. It is a problem now with enemies using more exotic damage types, stronger debuffs and coming in larger numbers. Even at the best of times, a couple of Rikti spawns will put me in the red unless I'm playing Electric Armour.
*edit* I should also point out that I build for damage before I build for defence. Not exclusively, but mostly. This is one of the primary reasons why I stopped playing Dominators - I had to build them like Controllers in order to be effective. Faced with the choice of not building for damage or playing an AT and building for damage, I pick the latter. |
My goal has never been to swim in minions. I know what my characters are capable of taking comfortably, and that's a single +0x2 spawn. Any more than that and I have to work at it, which is not something I want to do very often. Which is a pity, since the game tosses me against multiple spawns and large spanws more often than I'd like.
And I'm not a fan of moving the goal posts, either. A SR Scrapper losing 14% of his defences is actually a bigger hit than his toggles provide in terms of base value. I generally don't like this type of stats arms race where enemies get better stats so I have to gain better stats to keep up. I liked the fact that enemies scale with me and that "enough" performance was a stable goal past which I could goof off by taking unnecessary powers.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Funny you should mention that. There have been some hints that Spines is being proliferated to Brutes and Tankers in issue 24. Given that the devs like to spread stuff fairly evenly across the AT, Ice Melee would seem like a probable option for Stalkers and Scrappers. The only reason Stalkers didn't get it with Ice Armor was they had no time allocated to create an Assassin Strike animation for it. If that happens, it's likely to get "looked at" at the same time.|
Originally Posted by Horusaurus
This and port it to scrappers/stalkers/brutes
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Which begs the question: what are the other ATs getting?
I really should do something about this signature.
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This is such a stupid argument that is so easy to prove wrong I don't know why so many people insist on going on with it.| Self damage is trivial. |
Brute ET at lvl 50: -156hp
Brute HP, with accolades, at lvl 50: 1800hp
Brute regen, with 3-slotted Health, at lvl 50 and the above HP: 13.5 HP per second
So, each ET use eats 11.5s of your regeneration. Guess how often you're going to use ET? With a base recharge of 20s and no recharge enhancement or external buff, on SOs, every 12s while Hasten is up. Yep, no regeneration at all from ET use alone, and even while Hasten is down you're looking at less than half your usual regen.
You can argue it gets better with IOs, or regen, healing and maxHP powers from secondaries, epics or incarnates. It certainly does. The fact remains even at base recharge (20s) ET's -hp is roughly equivalent to ~-90% regen, and this number only gets higher the more recharge you throw in. People spend hundreds of millions of influence to get that in regen bonuses.
And that's on brutes. Stalkers pay a much higher price for it. Tankers pay a slightly lower price (self damage is slightly higher but they have a much bigger HP pool).
Personally, I don't find the self-damage component to be "trivial," but I do find it to be a decent tradeoff for the power's extreme damage. I do wish we could get bigger criticals out of Total Focus and Energy Transfer, though. Crushing Uppercut already does that. I just simply want to stand my ground: Slow attacks are OK if they're balanced right.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I play an Ice/Energy tanker. The self damage is irrelevent, my health bar barely moves, and I spam ET as often as I can (and I'm built for +recharge, with Agility alpha slotted).
I guess if you where playing a regen or WP Brute you might notice, but if you choose anti-synagistic primary and secondary, it's up to you to cope with the consequences.
Anything that reduced the damage of ET in exchange for reduced self damage would be ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE for my character - indeed, it is one thing that could cause me to rage-quit, since it is the prime ability of my main character. On the other hand, a I would LOVE an INCREASE in self damage in exchange for more damage or reduced activation time. But I'm sure you would HATE it.
And any change that some people like and some people hate is not a good one to make. The only sane decision is to LEAVE IT DAM WELL ALONE!
I really should do something about this signature.
I truly believe Energy Melee needs something done to it. It doesn't "feel" right. It is a slow animating set with almost 100% ST damage. What game world is that built for? Not the game the Devs are currently writing.
The Devs seem to be going in the right direction, the changes they made to Blasters, while not pleasing everyone, were conservative and radical at the same time. Conservative enough to not give away the store and overpower Blasters, yet radical in the direction they are moving Blasters. If they add a Mez protection (maybe in a pool power!) then Blasters would be near "fixed" in my book. Of course, my book isn't everyone's. The other change I would advocate for Blasters is a little bit more damage, an across the board bump in modifier perhaps. Again, your opinion may be different.
My point is when the Devs look at something these days they seem to be making sane logical choices. Compare/contrast with the PvP revamp, or a dozen other favorite WTF moments in CoH history. I can honestly say I like the Devs and how they are altering this game i love these days. My suggestion would be to take away all vacation, weekends, and stretch the workdays out to 15-18 hours. Work Harder!!!!
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It really doesn't matter. Concept wise, Kinetic Melee and Electric Melee cover pretty much the same ground, so no one "needs" it. It can be allowed to fall into semi-retirement, just kept-up-to-date enough for the people like me who have been playing it for many years remain competitive. And those of us who have been playing it for a long time - we are used to it and don't want to be tinkered with.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
I truly believe Energy Melee needs something done to it. It doesn't "feel" right. It is a slow animating set with almost 100% ST damage. What game world is that built for? Not the game the Devs are currently writing.
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Ice melee is the important one, because that is an important concept that doesn't have an appropriate substitute.
I really should do something about this signature.
They should turn EM into a single target monster with fast paced animations but that won't do to well in modern CoH.
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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What would you suggest needs to be done to keep it up-to-date and competitive?
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
It can be allowed to fall into semi-retirement, just kept-up-to-date enough for the people like me who have been playing it for many years remain competitive.
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I only read the OP so if someone mentioned it already, my apologies:
Issue 24 has been HUMOROUSLY joked about INTERNALLY as 'fix all the things' and is not a promise to the playerbase to actually do that.
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The one that likes to throw multiple elite bosses and many bosses at you at the same time? Single-target shock damage is not to be underestimated.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
I truly believe Energy Melee needs something done to it. It doesn't "feel" right. It is a slow animating set with almost 100% ST damage. What game world is that built for? Not the game the Devs are currently writing.
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That said, I don't disagree with you. I wouldn't be opposed to raising the radius of Whirling Hands, giving Stun damage or making Energy Transfer into a Headsplitter cone. I'm not against changing Energy Melee and I don't insist it's "just fine," I merely want to see it remain at the speed it has now and see fixes in other directions. City of Heroes is one of the only MMOs I've seen with decent combat animations, and a key reason for that is our powers have time to animate in non-spastic ways.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Nothing at the moment. I do just fine thanks. I was just putting in the proviso in the event of power creep.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
What would you suggest needs to be done to keep it up-to-date and competitive?
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One of the nice things about Energy Melee is it DOESN'T have any gimmicky mechanics that force you to just use the powers from the set, or weapons with redraw. This makes it every flexible, good for mix-and-matching with Pool/APP/PPP attacks, and well placed to take advantage of the upcoming power pool additions.
(if you must mess with something, mess with Total Focus AND LEAVE ET ALONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
I really should do something about this signature.
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I agree completely Samuel. Your point about tweaking the effect of the powers but not the animations "feels" right. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
The one that likes to throw multiple elite bosses and many bosses at you at the same time? Single-target shock damage is not to be underestimated.
That said, I don't disagree with you. I wouldn't be opposed to raising the radius of Whirling Hands, giving Stun damage or making Energy Transfer into a Headsplitter cone. I'm not against changing Energy Melee and I don't insist it's "just fine," I merely want to see it remain at the speed it has now and see fixes in other directions. City of Heroes is one of the only MMOs I've seen with decent combat animations, and a key reason for that is our powers have time to animate in non-spastic ways. |
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
One of the nice things about Energy Melee is it DOESN'T have any gimmicky mechanics that force you to just use the powers from the set, or weapons with redraw. This makes it every flexible, good for mix-and-matching with Pool/APP/PPP attacks, and well placed to take advantage of the upcoming power pool additions.
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I fully agree with this statement, and believe it reinforces Samuel's statement above. The set is beautiful. I dio not play it because I feel cheated whenever I do. I can take Super Strength and get a jaw dropping radius on my PBAoE, or take Dark Melee and get tons of tools to help me through combats. Energy Melee's trick is Stun. I hate Stun and Knockback so much I cannot express it fully in words. If corpseblasting is a problem with EM, Stunning peeps as your secondary effect doubles down on it.
Oh, yeah, that reminds me - People told me that I really, really should take Weave on my SJ/SR Scrapper, because defence cap, etc. So I looked at the build and realised I'd need to take Kick or Boxing. I could slot and use them, but... Why would I want to? Neither power builds Combo Levels and neither power uses Combo Levels. Why would I want either?
I wanted Tough on my Titan/Inv Brute because... Well, because, but I still didn't want Kick or Boxing because neither power built Momentum and the slowdown of redraw would actually impede my performance more than it would help.
By contrast, my Energy/Energy Brute to this day has Kick and Tough in her repertoir, because there's no redraw and no gimmick that makes Kick a detrement. Oh, sure, it makes the pink pom-poms of doom disappear, but so what? Their "draw" is instant and it really doesn't matter either way whether my hands glow because it's a kicking attack. I wish more sets were as open to out-of-set attacks.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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One fix for Energy Melee I would heartily endorse would be fixing the power order for Tankers so it matched the other AT's. Wouldn't be drastic, but getting a heavy hitter 7 levels earlier, 28 rather than 35, would be nice for Tankers. No one takes Stun anyway, so it would also let them get an APP selection earlier as well.
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@Starflier
I gave up on Blasters in large part because I could not reconcile with myself how I could hate a set which was so pretty just because it was slow. I refuse to support any game balance suggestion which offers animation speed-up as the only positive change. You're not going to get the old animation for this power back any more so than you'll get ED reversed. If Energy Transfer is bad (and I'm not convinced that it is), then I'd rather see the power made better within its current animation.