Personally, I agree with this conclusion....
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...&postcount=278
Base values of the powers are fine. The caps are whats out of whack. If tanks aren't allowed to have the damage caps of Brutes, then Brutes shouldn't be allowed to have the HP and resistance caps of Tanks.
Tankers have had their HP cap buffed a while back.
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I'd like to see Tanker damage cap adjusted so they come within 10% of Brute damage when both are fully buffed. Since the thread linked at the start of this thread is full of people intentionally misinterpreting things to set up strawman arguments, that does not mean Tankers should get the same or only 10% less damage cap than Brutes, because Tankers have a higher damage scale than Brutes. It means that, adjusted for their higher damage scale, the actual damage output should end up 10% less than Brutes when fully buffed, just as Brutes are only 10% less durable than Tankers when both are fully buffed.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Tankers have had their HP cap buffed a while back.
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I've yet to be convinced that Tanker damage scale itself needs a buff. In ordinary solo play, Tankers do damage that is reasonably proportional to Brute damage, barring outside buffs. That is, they are about 75% of Brute damage, just as Brutes are about 75% of Tanker durability. In ordinary solo play, and even in teams with limited buff and debuff users, the two AT's aren't horribly out of whack, although an argument can be made that content does not demand or reward Tanker level survivability these days.
It's only when fully buffed that the two AT's show drastically different performance levels, and that's why I personally feel that the Tanker AT should have its damage cap raised. Lowering the Brute resistance cap seems a poor idea - it would hit resistance based Brute secondaries hard, others almost not at all, and just generally be a mess. In fact, I haven't seen any evidence that Brutes need an actual nerf at all. If content does not reward higher Tanker survivability, that's a content problem, not an AT problem, and should be adjusted by changing what content is produced.
TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!
They already tried lowering Brute caps and the amount of negative feedback changed it back. They will lower the caps the day they nerf Drain Psyche and Rage which isn't going to happen consider us grandfathered in.
If anything they should unnerf our damage back to 850%.
Brutes are nowhere close to 75% Tanker durability in most normal situations. Thankfully so, otherwise there'd be little point to play a Tanker. Damage is a lot more valuable than survivability generally speaking, so you need to have a much bigger survivability increase for any given damage decrease.
...I know at least one person is going to dispute that first sentence, and I have nothing better to do, so, numbers!
(at level 50)
Brute base HP: 1499.3
Tanker base HP: 1874.1
Increase from brute to tanker base HP = (1874.1/1499.3) - 1 = 0.25 = 25%
So that's a 25% difference from HP alone. Even the more theorically inclined would have to agree you need to multiply that to your standard base defense or resistance from powers difference between brutes and tankers, which is another 25%; all in all, a 56.25% increase from brute to tanker (or brutes having 64% tanker survivability, depending which way you want to look at it).
Such an answer would still ignore the greater returns you get from resistance as you get closer to the hard cap, and defense as you get closer to the soft cap. MaxHP is also doubly useful as it not only increases the amount of damage needed to defeat you, but improves your regeneration by a corresponding amount.
Well, that was a few hours of reading. I guess you think the thread's consensus was "Brutes are OP and should have their resistance cap reduced to 85%"? Or at least that seems to be what you argue against the most. The thread itself is much more wide ranging, and there seems to be little consensus, even if some ideas find more favor than others.
As I understand it, you think that 85% would unfairly penalize Fire and Electric Armor, while having little other practical effect. That if Brutes are OP, this does very little, and that if they aren't OP, it isn't necessary.
Like you, I don't think Brutes are OP, but I also don't think lowering their resistance cap to 85% would be much of a nerf, even for Fire and Electric outside of very specific situations.
I also don't think Tankers are underperformers that need more damage. But like lowering the resistance cap on Brutes, I also don't think raising the damage cap on Tankers would have much effect outside of very specific situations. It all sounds like much ado about nothing to me.
But then, I avoid iTrials to the extent possible, and while I have a number of Tankers, none have top end builds, and none are designed to play the Tanker role. I may play Tankers, but I'm not a Tank. I don't think I've ever been on a PUG with one of my Tankers, so I'm not subjecting any unsuspecting innocents to my complete lack of tanking.
And since it was referenced in the thread, honestly, the biggest reason I rerolled my main Scrapper as a Brute was because I was sick of runners. (Well, OK, I did kind of ragequit after getting spanked by Banished Pantheon, but I'm still leveling the Brute primarily because I hate runners.) But whether aggro control (and stopping runners) helps Brutes themselves in general is debatable. I personally like it, and I expect to leverage it into a faster kill rate than I had on my Scrapper (outside of hard targets). But I'll probably be taking more incoming damage as a result, and a lot of people don't want aggro auras on their Scrappers for this reason. The Brute has better survivability to cope with it. But then I don't have access to, say, Water Spout or Hibernate. I have less burst damage potential, so it's harder to eliminate troublesome enemies quickly, particularly after a pause in the action. In general, I like powers like Superior Conditioning more than powers like Conserve Power, but Conserve Power is the better response for endurance drains. But then, I'm planning to go with Ageless. But with Ageless instead of Barrier, I won't be hitting the higher resistance caps very often, mostly eliminating that advantage. It's all a rather complicated picture. In my mind, neither AT, even specifically for a top end Katana/Dark in solo incarnate content, is clearly superior. I suspect the Brute will be a little more survivable. But mostly, I'm just sick of runners.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
I read some of the posts from that other thread. In fact, I was reading at the very beginning and fell off at some early point.
I know that there is a lot of valid and healthy discussion going on here and there, but I just am flat out tired of any kind of tanker buff resulting in a brute nerf. I wish that there could be a thread of tanker improvements that entirely does not mention brutes a single time.
Yes, scrappers are mentioned in that other thread. Though I have no numbers to support it, it seems like they were mentioned more than I have seen in any other recent tanker buff thread. But I am just tired of tanker buffs=brute nerfs arguments.
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
When you're talking about buffing an entire AT, it's almost impossible to do so in a vacuum, without referencing other ATs. Once you compare to another AT, and assuming one is superior to the other, and a bit oversimplistically, your two options if you want to fix it are buff one or nerf the other. So you're rather unlikely to see a thread that doesn't include the nerf option.
I'm not convinced of the basic assumption that the ATs are out of balance, though.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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And I'm incline to think the same way. Most of the upheaval about the Tanker <> Brute balance concerns tend to float around the specific circumstances rather than the actual issue of if they are or not...like people feel Peacebringers are so horrible but they do a good portion of damage with lots of survival options and without the necessity of investing an arm and a leg to do any of it...|
Originally Posted by Werner
I also don't think Tankers are underperformers that need more damage. But like lowering the resistance cap on Brutes, I also don't think raising the damage cap on Tankers would have much effect outside of very specific situations. It all sounds like much ado about nothing to me. |
Or, for the life of me, I don't see why people are hammering Stalkers' performance. How big a difference is there between them and Scrappers and yet Stalkers are primarily focused on ST rather than AoE and spend more endurance for their ST prowess all while being less survivable on paper.
All in all, it's a wash because nothing is going to be balanced exactly the same way because everything should or does have options and capabilities supplementary to their primary focus. You have to consider *ALL* of the AT's points not just the arbitrary similarities like damage and resistance caps.
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Originally Posted by magikwand
I read some of the posts from that other thread. In fact, I was reading at the very beginning and fell off at some early point.
I know that there is a lot of valid and healthy discussion going on here and there, but I just am flat out tired of any kind of tanker buff resulting in a brute nerf. I wish that there could be a thread of tanker improvements that entirely does not mention brutes a single time. Yes, scrappers are mentioned in that other thread. Though I have no numbers to support it, it seems like they were mentioned more than I have seen in any other recent tanker buff thread. But I am just tired of tanker buffs=brute nerfs arguments. |
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Originally Posted by Werner
When you're talking about buffing an entire AT, it's almost impossible to do so in a vacuum, without referencing other ATs. Once you compare to another AT, and assuming one is superior to the other, and a bit oversimplistically, your two options if you want to fix it are buff one or nerf the other. So you're rather unlikely to see a thread that doesn't include the nerf option.
I'm not convinced of the basic assumption that the ATs are out of balance, though. |
Same as a possible buff for Tankers, something to make the job of Aggro manager or possibly give the good tankers another avenue of protecting allies or even outright building mechanics to make them stand out in end-game/trial content. No, they probably won't measure out to as much damage as a Brute in such circumstances, but it'd make a player stop and think twice "Should I really roll this as a Brute over a Tanker?" namely for the options given up.
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Bingo! That's my thoughts exactly...neither one is broken...
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Originally Posted by Werner
<snip> I'm not convinced of the basic assumption that the ATs are out of balance, though. |
Currently Playing:
Rage King - SS/Regen Brute (50+3)
Soulfire Darkness - Dark/Fire Tank (50+2)
Deaths Final Embrace - Kat/Dark Brute (50+3)
ULTIMATE REGEN GUIDE I22
They're looking in the wrong direction. In the current game:
Tanking is discouraged - most trials will annihilate the tanker through one gimmick or another. And one penalizes the entire team for someone doing too good a job tanking.
Continuous uninterrupted attacking is discouraged - most trials will annihilate someone who is more focused on mashing buttons than reading pop up text.
Burst damage is meaningless - most trial bosses, like all AVs, don't care that you unleashed hell for 10 seconds. They're still standing. Sustained DPS is king... when you can bring it to bear through the gimmick d'jour.
What AT doesn't care if it has aggro or not but has the option of gathering it, is always at full strength no matter how many blue patches or lightning bolts it has to dodge, and puts out of the highest sustained non-pet or debuff fueled damage in the game?
The Scrapper.
It doesn't really matter what kind of parity is reached between brutes and tankers. Even leveling in parties: as individual resilience increases the very concept of aggro control has become obsolete in City.
Weight training: Because you'll never hear someone lament "If only I were weaker, I could have saved them."
Click here to read this thread about brutes...I disagree with their conclusions...
Discuss?
Currently Playing:
Rage King - SS/Regen Brute (50+3)
Soulfire Darkness - Dark/Fire Tank (50+2)
Deaths Final Embrace - Kat/Dark Brute (50+3)
ULTIMATE REGEN GUIDE I22