Quantifying the damage difference between Blasters and Corruptors?


Another_Fan

 

Posted

Someone may have mentioned it, but don't forget that Damage Over Time impacts the estimate as well. For example, Electron Haze won't have applied all of its damage until about 4.6 seconds after the power has run its course.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
Someone may have mentioned it, but don't forget that Damage Over Time impacts the estimate as well. For example, Electron Haze won't have applied all of its damage until about 4.6 seconds after the power has run its course.
There are always small set dependent discrepancies, like Fire DOTs not being considered part of the attack so the Scourge segment only criticals based off the attack's base damage, etc.

Being on a team also changes things, since others are also attacking and reducing your window of opportunity.

Overal, though, I think the ballpoint mentioned here, about 20.5%, may be fair for cross-AT generalization.

You can round to say Doms end having between .80 and .90 damage output potential, not considering their potential for offensive from their buff set.


 

Posted

Level 18 Water/Poison Corr.
All slots empty except for Water Burst - Corr ATO set 5 slotted (no proc)

Paper missions against even-cons, attack chain either Aqua Bolt, Hydro Blast, Water Burst or Tidal Forces Water Burst Hydro Blast Aqua Bolt.

  • You drench Mook Muscle with your Water Burst for 12.64 points of Cold damage.
    You drench Mook Muscle with your Water Burst for 2.01 points of additional Cold damage.
  • You drench Mook Muscle with your Aqua Bolt for 14.23 points of Cold damage.
    You blast Mook Muscle with your Hydro Blast for 8.36 points of Smashing damage and reduce their movement speed!
    You drench Mook Muscle with your Hydro Blast for 25.09 points of Cold damage.
  • You have knocked Mook Muscle off their feet with your Water Burst!
    You blast Mook Muscle with your Hydro Blast for 6.92 points of Smashing damage and reduce their movement speed!
    You drench Mook Muscle with your Hydro Blast for 20.79 points of Cold damage.
  • You drench Mook Muscle with your Aqua Bolt for 11.8 points of Cold damage.
    You blast Mook Muscle with your Aqua Bolt for 3.93 points of Smashing damage and reduce their defense!
  • You drench Mook Muscle with your Aqua Bolt for 11.8 points of Cold damage.
    You blast Mook Muscle with your Aqua Bolt for 3.93 points of Smashing damage and reduce their defense!
  • You drench Mook Muscle with your Aqua Bolt for 11.8 points of Cold damage.
    You blast Mook Muscle with your Aqua Bolt for 3.93 points of Smashing damage and reduce their defense!
  • You drench Mook Muscle with your Aqua Bolt for 11.8 points of Cold damage.
    Your Aqua Bolt drenches Mook Muscle for 15.73 points of extra Cold damage!
  • You blast Headman Rifleman with your Aqua Bolt for 4.36 points of Smashing damage and reduce their defense!
    You drench Headman Rifleman with your Aqua Bolt for 13.11 points of Cold damage.
    Your Aqua Bolt drenches Headman Rifleman for 17.48 points of extra Cold damage!
  • You drench Headman Rifleman with your Hydro Blast for 23.11 points of Cold damage.
    Your Hydro Blast drenches Headman Rifleman for 30.81 points of extra Cold damage!
  • You blast Scrounger Slugger with your Water Burst for 4.68 points of Smashing damage and reduce their defense!
    You drench Scrounger Slugger with your Water Burst for 14.05 points of Cold damage.
    Your Water Burst drenches Scrounger Slugger for 18.73 points of extra Cold damage!
    You drench Scrounger Slugger with your Water Burst for 4.68 points of additional Cold damage.
    You have knocked Scrounger Slugger off their feet with your Water Burst!
  • You drench Headman Blaster with your Aqua Bolt for 13.11 points of Cold damage.
    Your Aqua Bolt drenches Headman Blaster for 17.48 points of extra Cold damage!
  • You drench Headman Blaster with your Aqua Bolt for 13.11 points of Cold damage.
    Your Aqua Bolt drenches Headman Blaster for 17.48 points of extra Cold damage!
    You blast Headman Blaster with your Aqua Bolt for 4.36 points of Smashing damage and reduce their defense!
  • You drench Scrounger Chopper with your Hydro Blast for 23.11 points of Cold damage.
    Your Hydro Blast drenches Scrounger Chopper for 30.81 points of extra Cold damage!
    You have knocked Scrounger Chopper off their feet with your Hydro Blast!
While you do see Scourge and numbers on screen, combat log does not say "Scourge". I guess I'd be looking for extra X damage, pasted that hoping it can give people a small idea...Oh, there was definitely overkill in some cases. A white minion would have Scourge on it at very low health and the extra damage would go to waste...


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starsman View Post
Overal, though, I think the ballpoint mentioned here, about 20.5%, may be fair for cross-AT generalization.

You can round to say Doms end having between .80 and .90 damage output potential, not considering their potential for offensive from their buff set.
Well, given that ~20% was the "best case" scenario in your quantification (against EB+), sure.

And I think you mean Corruptors in the last sentence there, otherwise you're not providing any meaningful scale. A .75 AT modifier * 1.2 from Scourge = .9; the Dominator ranged AT modifier is 0.95, with melee at 1.05.


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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig View Post
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

 

Posted

Quote:
And I think you mean Corruptors in the last sentence there,
Yes, fixed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siolfir View Post
Well, given that ~20% was the "best case" scenario in your quantification (against EB+), sure.
Actually that line also may had been missleading. Soloing, the corruptor is not likely to be facing too many EBs or AVs, and I guess most will prefer to avoid bosses (although can see the people that know how to use their secondary deal with them.)

So for the most part, the corruptor will be facing Minnions and Lts, so thats about +7 or +11, meaning from .80 to .83.

This may be enough to ignite a damage boost discussion with the devs, but the insane power multiplying nature of Buff sets can't be easily ignored.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starsman View Post
Actually that line also may had been missleading. Soloing, the corruptor is not likely to be facing too many EBs or AVs, and I guess most will prefer to avoid bosses (although can see the people that know how to use their secondary deal with them.)

So for the most part, the corruptor will be facing Minnions and Lts, so thats about +7 or +11, meaning from .80 to .83.

This may be enough to ignite a damage boost discussion with the devs, but the insane power multiplying nature of Buff sets can't be easily ignored.
I usually include bosses, but even then you don't run into many without cranking the difficulty up - usually one or two per mission.

I'm not saying that 20% is a bad number to use for balance, I'm just saying that it's going to end up being a "best case for Corruptors" comparison so when they still fall short of other ATs people shouldn't say "well sometimes Scourge will work better!" I just find it funny how people complain how Tankers deal so little damage (.8 modifier * 1.2 from Bruising = 0.96) and how great Corruptors (.9 using 20% boost from Scourge) are for damage.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brillig View Post
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siolfir View Post
I usually include bosses, but even then you don't run into many without cranking the difficulty up - usually one or two per mission.

I'm not saying that 20% is a bad number to use for balance
I do. You dont even get half that soloing.

Quote:
I just find it funny how people complain how Tankers deal so little damage (.8 modifier * 1.2 from Bruising = 0.96) and how great Corruptors (.9 using 20% boost from Scourge) are for damage.
I wish my tanker was able to do things like toss a Tar Patch

But seriously? I think Scourge itself can use a boost, perhaps to kick in and max out earlier. I'd have to run numbers again to sugest numbers for that, but it would be the ideal solution to keep the AT from doing too much front-loaded damage. I have always thought the AT should be comparable in damage to Dominators.

Unfortunateluy, right now tankers have my near full attention.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starsman View Post
I think Scourge itself can use a boost, perhaps to kick in and max out earlier. I'd have to run numbers again to sugest numbers for that, but it would be the ideal solution to keep the AT from doing too much front-loaded damage.
Interestingly, I feel the opposite. I think corruptors should deal more damage normally, and possibly scourge shouldn't be quite so potent (I wouldn't change the frequency it activates, but rather lower the amount it scourges for).


Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by StratoNexus View Post
Interestingly, I feel the opposite. I think corruptors should deal more damage normally, and possibly scourge shouldn't be quite so potent (I wouldn't change the frequency it activates, but rather lower the amount it scourges for).
Lowering or randomizing the ammount it scourges for may be a requirement to make it kick in earlier.

I dont think Corruptors should be too up-front on damage dealing for various reasons. Most importantly, though, its that it's the only AT that isnt, and that makes it unique. Being a force multipier also should set some barriers on your performance, by lowering up-front damage output you set a higher bar to surpass, but as soon as that bar is surapssed (with friends or hard work) you become a much stronger force.

Properly balanced, Scourge would be able to kick in at 80% or 85% and perhaps max out at 100% at 20% (random number off thin air) with randomized bonus damage.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starsman View Post
Properly balanced, Scourge would be able to kick in at 80% or 85% and perhaps max out at 100% at 20% (random number off thin air) with randomized bonus damage.
Hmmm. In a way, having Scourge kick in sooner, would be bringing some corruptor damage more to the front. While I like the simpler, and more predictable, idea of increasing the damage mod and lowering the scourge damage, there is merit in emphasizing scourge more, both decreasing its maximum performance but having it occur more often.

Not a bad idea at all.


Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starsman View Post
I wish my tanker was able to do things like toss a Tar Patch
I wish my Corruptor could go afk standing in the middle of an aggro cap full of mobs without worrying about having to go to the hospital when I get back, and only ever had to worry about the handful of mag 100 mezzes in the game. Even soft-capped, the RNG is still going to get a Corruptor killed in that situation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brillig View Post
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siolfir View Post
I wish my Corruptor could go afk standing in the middle of an aggro cap full of mobs without worrying about having to go to the hospital when I get back, and only ever had to worry about the handful of mag 100 mezzes in the game. Even soft-capped, the RNG is still going to get a Corruptor killed in that situation.
Touché


 

Posted

So although I did a similar calculation to the one presented at the top of the thread that gives a figure of merit of scourge of 30%, I've never actually said that was my best estimate for scourge because it doesn't factor in the effect of accelerating damage. In effect, the graph posted by GuyPerfect assumes you "live" at each percentage point for about the same amount of time, but scourge itself invalidates that assumption: as target health drops, corruptor damage increases, and the corruptor thus spends less and less time at lower and lower target health levels**. Basically, the curve shouldn't be weighted evenly, but rather almost as an inverse of its own value.

Thinking about this discretely, its obvious that what scourge does is reduce the average number of attacks it takes to defeat a target. Simplifying the situation a bit, I looked at the case where the corruptors attacks averaged some value as a percentage of the target's health. So for example if the corruptor's attacks averaged 10% of the target's health, it would take ten hits to defeat that target on average. Scourge would reduce that value statistically. I then wrote a problem to simply stochastically compute the percentage chance of a 10 hit kill being reduced to a 9 hit kill, an 8 hit kill, and so on. Since scourge doesn't kick in until health reaches 50%, and the best you can do is double your hits to 20% of the target's health, the best case scenario is scourge triggers every time its possible, and you end up with an eight hit kill (5 hits for 50% health, and then three hits for 60% health total, defeating the target).

Summarizing, I get this chart:

Code:
pct	average	norm	benefit
10	8.906	10	1.123
11	8.554	10	1.169
12	7.838	9	1.148
13	7.144	8	1.120
14	6.936	8	1.153
15	6.281	7	1.114
16	6.162	7	1.136
17	5.536	6	1.084
18	5.405	6	1.110
19	5.288	6	1.135
20	4.750	5	1.053
21	4.675	5	1.070
22	4.599	5	1.087
23	4.525	5	1.105
24	4.450	5	1.124
25	4.000	4	1.000
26	3.950	4	1.013
27	3.900	4	1.026
28	3.850	4	1.039
29	3.800	4	1.053
30	3.750	4	1.067
31	3.700	4	1.081
32	3.650	4	1.096
33	3.600	4	1.111
34	3.000	3	1.000
35	3.000	3	1.000
36	3.000	3	1.000
37	3.000	3	1.000
38	3.000	3	1.000
39	3.000	3	1.000
40	3.000	3	1.000
Assuming no regeneration, the right column is the effective damage buff when the average attack hits for a percentage of total health equal to the left column. Notice that between 10% per hit and 24% per hit its between 5 and 17%, averaging about 12%. That's actually closer to my guestimate for scourge's true average benefit under normal gaming conditions (my guestimate prior to today was about 15%). Notice also that once you start hitting for more than about a third of total health scourge stops doing anything. That's because you have to get at least two hits below 50% for scourge to do anything: if you only deal one hit below 50% scourge has no future hit to buff. (Note also that hitting for exactly precisely 25% of total health with no regeneration factored in is a special edge case).

This is a monte carlo version of the analysis Starsman mentions above, and generates somewhat different results. The analysis code is pretty straight forward:

Code:
import random, math

trials = 1000000

for a in xrange(10,41,1):

    hit_ar = [0]*12

    for loop1 in xrange(0,trials):
        h = 100
        hits = 0
        while h > 0:

            # scourge percent
            spct = (50 - h) * 0.025
            if spct < 0:
                spct = 0

            sroll = random.random()
            if sroll <= spct:
                h = h - 2 * a
            else:
                h = h - a

            hits = hits + 1
            
        hit_ar[hits] = hit_ar[hits] + 1

    hc = 0.0
    for loopc in xrange(0,12):
        hc = hc + hit_ar[loopc] * loopc
    hav = hc / trials
        
    print a, hit_ar, round(hav,3), math.ceil(100.0/a), round(math.ceil(100.0/a)/hav,3)
(python 2.x)

With 1,000,000 trials per case, the estimates appear to be accurate to one part in a thousand.


** Highlighted by the fight with Tyrant in the Magisterium trial, where peculiar mechanics makes the exact opposite thing usually happen.


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Posted

Thank you for all responses, especially Starsman and Arcanaville. I sorta kinda understand what you all wrote. It's been 20 years since I've had to any serious math education after all.


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