I've got one of each, although the TW/Fire I locked at 33, and I've played around in Mids with both quite a bit. I like /Fire a lot, and I like doing a lot of damage, and I'd happily switch to anything that let me do a lot of damage without crashes. TW is certainly in the ballpark in terms of aoe killing speed, but I have doubts that Rend Armor puts it in the same league in terms of sustained ST, and that's the only thing I can think of that would close the kind of gap that Rage creates. I realize these aren't the hard number answers you're looking for, but it's sounding to me like wishful thinking on someone's part.
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Don't forget follow up which is one of the highest DPA attacks... if there was a way to close the gap I am assuming it would be a combination of FU, Arc, and Rend. -- CB could be replaced by Gloom as that deals slightly better DPA and is negative energy damage.
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Originally Posted by LowbrowDeluxe
I've got one of each, although the TW/Fire I locked at 33, and I've played around in Mids with both quite a bit. I like /Fire a lot, and I like doing a lot of damage, and I'd happily switch to anything that let me do a lot of damage without crashes. TW is certainly in the ballpark in terms of aoe killing speed, but I have doubts that Rend Armor puts it in the same league in terms of sustained ST, and that's the only thing I can think of that would close the kind of gap that Rage creates. I realize these aren't the hard number answers you're looking for, but it's sounding to me like wishful thinking on someone's part.
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Anyone know?
This was a debated thing in the past, and speculation put Titan Weapons at the top.
In the end, while I don't personally know the speed differences? Titan Weapons offers more AoE KD, and thus offers more mitigation. It also doesn't have to juggle Rage Crashes.
I think they're both very comparable, in the end, and comes down to personal flavour.
TW/Fire wins...
SS needs a chain of kob/burn/gloom/burn to compete and must stack rage. It takes 175-180% recharge to run that chain.
TW runs RA/FT/AOD/CB/FT/BM/WS/FT and it takes ed cap recharge in FT and 190% recharge to run that chain.
The pylon times tell the tale.
Currently Playing:
Rage King - SS/Regen Brute (50+3)
Soulfire Darkness - Dark/Fire Tank (50+2)
Deaths Final Embrace - Kat/Dark Brute (50+3)
ULTIMATE REGEN GUIDE I22
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Whats the damage difference? I think you are forgetting one point. That TW chain is all smashing damage while the SS chain utilizes fire and NE. |
Originally Posted by planet_J
TW/Fire wins...
SS needs a chain of kob/burn/gloom/burn to compete and must stack rage. It takes 175-180% recharge to run that chain. TW runs RA/FT/AOD/CB/FT/BM/WS/FT and it takes ed cap recharge in FT and 190% recharge to run that chain. The pylon times tell the tale. |
A lot of mobs resist smashing, a lot less resist fire and Ne.
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Actually, smashing isn't that common. Those who resist it tend to be sub 22%, which Titan Weapons reduces through Rend Armor (And being able to utilize both -RES Procs).|
Originally Posted by Ultimus
Whats the damage difference? I think you are forgetting one point. That TW chain is all smashing damage while the SS chain utilizes fire and NE.
A lot of mobs resist smashing, a lot less resist fire and Ne. |
You have to factor in the fact... the enemy will probably be in negative resistance due to the procs TW can take.
Also...pylons have high s/l resists...were it not for that...TW would kill pylons even faster...then the gap becomes more significant. On a pylon the dps difference is maybe 20 on something like DE that have poor resist TW is far and away more effective...*but* we are talking a 10 bill+ inf build...with ageless and musculature on both...etc. it's hard to say Joe q. Public will see those numbers...
Bottom line they're close but TW wins hands down...anything but fire with SS and it's all over for SS. Not a debate at that point.
Currently Playing:
Rage King - SS/Regen Brute (50+3)
Soulfire Darkness - Dark/Fire Tank (50+2)
Deaths Final Embrace - Kat/Dark Brute (50+3)
ULTIMATE REGEN GUIDE I22
Pylons have the same 20% resistance to all damage types, actually. This is one of the reasons they are such a widely-used benchmark for DPS.
And yeah, Smashing damage is more commonly resisted than fire/NE, but not dramatically so. Players tend to mentally group it with Lethal, but Lethal is far more resisted. Robots, in particular, tend to be very resistant to Lethal but have low or even negative resistance to Smashing.
I agree with Reppu's assessment: TW/Fire/Soul is excellent, and a strong competitor to SS/Fire/Soul, but neither clearly has the upper hand. TW by itself is better than SS by itself, but SS gets better use from Burn/Gloom/Darkest Night, both because of Rage and because it never has to deal with redraw.
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It won't be in the negative since resistance resists -resist. A -30% resistance on a 20% resistance would only reduce it to 6%.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
Actually, smashing isn't that common. Those who resist it tend to be sub 22%, which Titan Weapons reduces through Rend Armor (And being able to utilize both -RES Procs).
You have to factor in the fact... the enemy will probably be in negative resistance due to the procs TW can take. |
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Pylons don't have high resistance its the same for all damage types.
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Originally Posted by planet_J
Also...pylons have high s/l resists...were it not for that...TW would kill pylons even faster...then the gap becomes more significant. On a pylon the dps difference is maybe 20 on something like DE that have poor resist TW is far and away more effective...*but* we are talking a 10 bill+ inf build...with ageless and musculature on both...etc. it's hard to say Joe q. Public will see those numbers...
Bottom line they're close but TW wins hands down...anything but fire with SS and it's all over for SS. Not a debate at that point. |
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Ok TW/Fire/Soul... why? Does the best TW attack chain involve Gloom?|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
Pylons have the same 20% resistance to all damage types, actually. This is one of the reasons they are such a widely-used benchmark for DPS.
And yeah, Smashing damage is more commonly resisted than fire/NE, but not dramatically so. Players tend to mentally group it with Lethal, but Lethal is far more resisted. Robots, in particular, tend to be very resistant to Lethal but have low or even negative resistance to Smashing. I agree with Reppu's assessment: TW/Fire/Soul is excellent, and a strong competitor to SS/Fire/Soul, but neither clearly has the upper hand. TW by itself is better than SS by itself, but SS gets better use from Burn/Gloom/Darkest Night, both because of Rage and because it never has to deal with redraw. |
The above poster posted a chain with just TW attacks alone. So wouldn't that eliminate Soul?
You can use burn/gloom in place of WS/FT in the BM chain...but it's not necessary.
Currently Playing:
Rage King - SS/Regen Brute (50+3)
Soulfire Darkness - Dark/Fire Tank (50+2)
Deaths Final Embrace - Kat/Dark Brute (50+3)
ULTIMATE REGEN GUIDE I22
Quote:
The resistance would reduce that debuff BY 6% (20% of 30%), for a net debuff of 24%. So that would reduce the target from 20% resistance to -4%.|
Originally Posted by Ultimus
It won't be in the negative since resistance resists -resist. A -30% resistance on a 20% resistance would only reduce it to 6%.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ultimus
Ok TW/Fire/Soul... why? Does the best TW attack chain involve Gloom?
The above poster posted a chain with just TW attacks alone. So wouldn't that eliminate Soul? |
I have both a SS/Fire/Soul and TW/Fire brute, similarly invested set wise. The TW/Fire does beat the SS on pylon times, haven't really measured AOE farm times, but for me to do that on the TW I have to have a flawless attack chain the entire run with zero misses, whereas the SS can have a flub here or there. The DPS difference is minimal enough to not make a big difference and it all comes down to preference. The SS is much MUCH more faceroll friendly. I got my best times with the standard TW attack chain and with BM popped was using: FT RA AOD FT CB FT. If RA would miss it would really hurt my time.
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Interesting. So since SS gets 160% more damage at all times then TW only passes it by when SS does finally hit the cap and TW gets that extra 160% damage?
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Originally Posted by TommyTrD
I have both a SS/Fire/Soul and TW/Fire brute, similarly invested set wise. The TW/Fire does beat the SS on pylon times, haven't really measured AOE farm times, but for me to do that on the TW I have to have a flawless attack chain the entire run with zero misses, whereas the SS can have a flub here or there. The DPS difference is minimal enough to not make a big difference and it all comes down to preference. The SS is much MUCH more faceroll friendly. I got my best times with the standard TW attack chain and with BM popped was using: FT RA AOD FT CB FT. If RA would miss it would really hurt my time.
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No, TW passes it by period...where did you miss that part? SS cannot hit the cap by itself...the brute cap is over 700% damage...|
Originally Posted by Ultimus
Interesting. So since SS gets 160% more damage at all times then TW only passes it by when SS does finally hit the cap and TW gets that extra 160% damage?
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When you add attacks that are not inherent to SS to the attack chain it gets closer. By adding gloom and burn, you are taking SS at it's absolute peak and comparing it to TW. But TW can do that same damage with any secondary that has a damage aura...not just fire. Even with gloom but without burn...SS is not even in the same zipcode. Take away damage auras and the gap gets even wider...
Essentially you are comparing a toon built for one purpose only(SS/Fire/Soul)...to a powerset (TW) that can do what it does, whenever, where ever, with whomever...and still perform the same...day in and day out...while that specific toon (SS/Fire/Soul) cannot if it changes even so much as one piece of the puzzle.
TW/Elec...TW/Fire...TW/Dark...all those have damage auras...that's all you need for TW to do that damage...
SS/Fire...and well...nothing else will compete...SS HAS to have burn or you're so short it isn't funny...
TW doesn't want burn or gloom, you can keep them both...it's still just fine.
So, wish and what if all you want...TW > SS. Period. Even with Gloom/Burn/Stacked Rage...
(I like SS and I am telling you this...it's just the plain truth...look at my sig...no TW toons...but there is a SS toon!)
Currently Playing:
Rage King - SS/Regen Brute (50+3)
Soulfire Darkness - Dark/Fire Tank (50+2)
Deaths Final Embrace - Kat/Dark Brute (50+3)
ULTIMATE REGEN GUIDE I22
Quote:
I think you missed my point. Additionally, people have said in some cases they are the same and in others given a perfect chain TW out damages SS slightly but only when Rend Armor doesn't miss. Given a long enough time frame Rend armor will miss.|
Originally Posted by planet_J
No, TW passes it by period...where did you miss that part? SS cannot hit the cap by itself...the brute cap is over 700% damage...
When you add attacks that are not inherent to SS to the attack chain it gets closer. By adding gloom and burn, you are taking SS at it's absolute peak and comparing it to TW. But TW can do that same damage with any secondary that has a damage aura...not just fire. Even with gloom but without burn...SS is not even in the same zipcode. Take away damage auras and the gap gets even wider... Essentially you are comparing a toon built for one purpose only(SS/Fire/Soul)...to a powerset (TW) that can do what it does, whenever, where ever, with whomever...and still perform the same...day in and day out...while that specific toon (SS/Fire/Soul) cannot if it changes even so much as one piece of the puzzle. TW/Elec...TW/Fire...TW/Dark...all those have damage auras...that's all you need for TW to do that damage... SS/Fire...and well...nothing else will compete...SS HAS to have burn or you're so short it isn't funny... TW doesn't want burn or gloom, you can keep them both...it's still just fine. So, wish all you want...TW>SS. Period. Even with Gloom/Burn/Stacked Rage... |
As for my point above, I know what the Brute damage cap is it is 775% was 850%. What I am referring to by my statement was that:
If SS deals DPS A and TW deals DPS B. For simplicity sake lets say A = B (Even though in a "perfect" chain B might be slightly greater then A but I am illustrating my point.)
So if A = B and A's DPS is a combination of 160% (From Rage double stacked) + 200% Fury + 100% enhancement (Rounded for simplicity)and B's DPS is the same combination minus the 160% from Rage:
The conclusion is that if both sets are given equal damage buffs lets say 100% X A = B X 100% the DPS would stay the same. A would only fall behind when it hits the damage cap which it would at 160% damage sooner since its already utilizing that damage from rage.
Therefore, at the damage cap A's DPS would be approximately 160% behind whatever B's base DPS is.
This is just the simple formula since B's attack chain utilizes a 50% damage for 10 seconds every time Y (I am not sure how often its being popped) it becomes more complex.
*******
Ultimately a Pylon isn't telling the entire tale. Several factors will effect TW's single target DPS:
Time is one factor. Given a long enough period RA will miss.
Defense and to hit debuffs: Super Strength is immune to these practically, it can have nearly 60% to hit self buffed.
Level: RA's -Resistance debuff will decrease in duration and total -Resistance as the opponent's level increases. This becomes noticeable once an attack is loses its chance to hit with -Res. Example, lets say 5 attacks are made every 1 second and RA's debuff lasts 5.1 seconds (So the 5th attack hits it) -- If RA's -Res is reduced below 5.1 seconds that 5th attack loses 10% overall damage (Using the tanker debuff number I believe brutes are 7.5%) and that isn't factoring in opponent's level damage.
*****
The other factor you are missing is how burn works with Fury. Burn works in two factors:
Factor A it deals direct damage from the Brute
Factor B it summons a pet which deals damage over time. This pet will obtain the damage buff from fury but that damage buff will fade in 1 second. Fury is a reoccurring buff that refreshes itself every 1 second. Thus, the SS's burn will have 100% from enhancement plus 160% from Rage for the pet damage portion.
I know factor B works that way as I had a long discussion with Castle over the forums regarding it back in the day (Like issue 7 or 8) when I kept noticing my burn on my Fire/Fire Brute damage would sharply drop.
I can stop this here with the following:
Titan Weapon's can take both Heel Proc and Glad Proc, on top of Rend Armor that's a pre-resistance 57.5% Damage Resistance Debuff.
Heel Procs would go into Rend Armor and Crushing Blow.
Glad Proc into Arc of Destruction (Which is in your main rotation).
Also, by your same logic: RA will miss as often as KO Blow or Gloom will miss, and those two powers carry.
RA also isn't the power that carries TW. It's Follow Through >_> Which you can use twice in a period of Momentum with enough global recharge.
If you DO manage to miss RA, since RA is your OPENER, you just hit Crushing Blow. Sure, it hurts, but then you just hit Build Momentum when it's off cooldown and go back to your old rotation.
All things said: Misses hurt both sets equally, since SS relies on KO and Gloom to function just as much as TW relies on not missing it's opener to not derp it's chain and damage.
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Actually it doesn't effect both sets equally. RA missing hurts TW a lot more then KO blow missing due to the fact RA increases the damage of the other attacks. Its even been confirmed by multiple posters that you can fumble a bit in the SS chain and stay on top while the TW chain requires "perfection."|
Originally Posted by Reppu
I can stop this here with the following:
Titan Weapon's can take both Heel Proc and Glad Proc, on top of Rend Armor that's a pre-resistance 57.5% Damage Resistance Debuff. Heel Procs would go into Rend Armor and Crushing Blow. Glad Proc into Arc of Destruction (Which is in your main rotation). Also, by your same logic: RA will miss as often as KO Blow or Gloom will miss, and those two powers carry. RA also isn't the power that carries TW. It's Follow Through >_> Which you can use twice in a period of Momentum with enough global recharge. If you DO manage to miss RA, since RA is your OPENER, you just hit Crushing Blow. Sure, it hurts, but then you just hit Build Momentum when it's off cooldown and go back to your old rotation. All things said: Misses hurt both sets equally, since SS relies on KO and Gloom to function just as much as TW relies on not missing it's opener to not derp it's chain and damage. |
RA increases your overall DPS by nearly 7.5% and if it requires that to stay even with SS that creates a problem when it misses. I am assuming the goal of the chain is to keep the -Res from RA up perma.
You are also assuming both procs will be up at the same time for the -Res. However, once team play comes into factor the SS will gain the benefit of the -Res from RA and the procs from that too.
Burn can also slot that proc if necessary also.
Its basically like if Follow Up misses for a Claws attack chain.
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No, that isn't right.|
Originally Posted by Ultimus
So if A = B and A's DPS is a combination of 160% (From Rage double stacked) + 200% Fury + 100% enhancement (Rounded for simplicity)and B's DPS is the same combination minus the 160% from Rage:
The conclusion is that if both sets are given equal damage buffs lets say 100% X A = B X 100% the DPS would stay the same. A would only fall behind when it hits the damage cap which it would at 160% damage sooner since its already utilizing that damage from rage. |
If SS at 535% damage (base + 95% enhancement + 90 fury + double Rage) matches TW at 375% damage (base + 95% enhancement + 90 fury), then each point of damage buffs benefits TW more, so even if they're dead even to start with, TW will pull ahead given any damage buffs at all, long before the cap.
But moreover, it seems quite silly to quote someone saying "TW wins self-buffed, unless you screw up" and interpret that as "SS wins, except with extreme buffs".
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No that isn't right:|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
No, that isn't right.
If SS at 535% damage (base + 95% enhancement + 90 fury + double Rage) matches TW at 375% damage (base + 95% enhancement + 90 fury), then each point of damage buffs benefits TW more, so even if they're dead even to start with, TW will pull ahead given any damage buffs at all, long before the cap. But moreover, it seems quite silly to quote someone saying "TW wins self-buffed, unless you screw up" and interpret that as "SS wins, except with extreme buffs". |
If A = 1.60 + 2.00 + 1.00 (Fury, Enhancement, Double Rage) which is 4.6 X Base DPS (unenhanced DPS damage) = A
And 2.00 + 1.00 = B which is 3 X Base DPS.
And A = B
Then A X 3 = B X 3
Each point does not matter until SS hits the damage cap.
Why not just play what you want? We have numerous people saying TW is better, but you're trying to debunk that somehow.
Pick it or Ditch It.
Ok I keep seeing in other threads outside of the group forum that TW/Fire out damages SS/Fire/Soul. Can anyone fill me in on this as I have a few questions:
1) Is this just in a pylon test or are outside buffs being used?
2) Is TW using Burn and Gloom in the attack chain?
3) What is the attack chain people are using to do this? Go full on purples, billions of influence, etc. Note: I don't want to see a build, just an attack chain assuming the latter are being used.
4) If TW/Fire/?? (Soul?) is out damaging SS when factoring in double rage and such, how far ahead is it when at the brute damage cap?