Toxic Damage - Is It Exotic?
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2012-06-22 15:43 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Since you acknowledge that healing powers often provide resistance to toxic, wouldn't you say a set like Regeneration provides significant protection from toxic? Resilience offers 9.375% resistance to all, which is about 14.9% slotted. Reconstruction offers 15% res to toxic and I think it stacks and lasts 60 seconds: you should be able to stack it and get to about 30% resistance to toxic, for a total of about 44.9% resistance to toxic. That seems to be pretty high protection to toxic damage.
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Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
In terms of player powers, virtually nothing outright deals Toxic or protects from it.
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for greatest sources of toxic dmg from players you have poisonous ray listed only for arachnos soldiers, did you consider the poisonous ray from mace mastery? that power is also fairly high dmg and is pure toxic
Interesting read, but I worry that this obsession you have with Toxic Damage is unhealthy.
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I agree that 50% resistance is a significant amount. Many sets might see closer to 25% resistance to any given damage type, which can't even reach 50% with Enhancements. Having said that, I've seen people get similar protection with Healing Flames and the other self-heals (Kuji-in Sha lolwut), but that's largely situational and has to be "built up," as it were.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Since you acknowledge that healing powers often provide resistance to toxic, wouldn't you say a set like Regeneration provides significant protection from toxic?
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For now, I'm not prepared to make the argument that stacking a self heal's resistance to Toxic merits considering that heal as much protection from Toxic.
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Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
for greatest sources of toxic dmg from players you have poisonous ray listed only for arachnos soldiers, did you consider the poisonous ray from mace mastery? that power is also fairly high dmg and is pure toxic
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Originally Posted by Trickshooter
Interesting read, but I worry that this obsession you have with Toxic Damage is unhealthy.
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Fair enough. I thought about ways to gain toxic resistance without heals, and the best I can come up with in terms of player powers without special inventions or incarnate powers that doesn't require ally only buffs (i.e. can be done solo) is a Sonic Defender with slotted Sonic Dispersion and Scorpion Shield from Mace Mastery (which you can't slot for resistance) can get about 41.3% resistance to toxic. That's also not too bad. I can't at the moment think of anything better using just slotted player powers and no ally buffs not castable on self.
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Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
I agree that 50% resistance is a significant amount. Many sets might see closer to 25% resistance to any given damage type, which can't even reach 50% with Enhancements. Having said that, I've seen people get similar protection with Healing Flames and the other self-heals (Kuji-in Sha lolwut), but that's largely situational and has to be "built up," as it were.
For now, I'm not prepared to make the argument that stacking a self heal's resistance to Toxic merits considering that heal as much protection from Toxic. |
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
For now, I'm not prepared to make the argument that stacking a self heal's resistance to Toxic merits considering that heal as much protection from Toxic.
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Actually, on my fire/fire tanks, I routinely slot Healing flames for resistance. The 'toxic death sewers' are easy-peasy when you have 90 percent toxic resistance.
Tanker fire armor can easily hit 90 percent to fire and toxic. Me like.
And yes, I have noticed for a while that toxic is NOT uncommon. Zombie vomit to poison clouds, it's at every level of the game.
Scorpion Shield really needs to accept Resistance Enhancements. O-:<
How about IOs? Various set bonuses grant like +0.0003% Toxic Resistance. You could probably scrounge up a significant number of those if you didn't want your build to be good for anything else.
I took a look at the Bio Armor numbers for Tanker on beta:
- 25% - Hardened Carapace
- 5% + 0.5% per nearby target - Evolving Armor
- 6% - Hardened Carapace
- 1.65% + 0.2% per nearby target - Evolving Armor
EDIT:
Oh yeah, how about Granite Armor?
As I mentioned in our conversation earlier, I think the main reason it's considered "exotic" is the lack of typed defense for it. The tag does actually exist, as seen in your list, but isn't really used except for a couple powers, and no power in the game grants defense to it.
However, a lot of players have the misconception that Toxic damage is "untyped" and bypasses defense. That's not true at all. Virtually all powers that do toxic damage do have positional defense tags, and a solid number of them are also tagged with another damage type -- in most cases Lethal, but sometimes Energy or even Fire. So a set like Super Reflexes will probably have a lot less trouble with Toxic damage than a pure resist set, Granite excluded.
Guy this is great. Thank you for the post. I need to make more snake and spider toons.
I also made two bird toons after I discovered that poisonous birds exist.
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Its probably also a historical quirk from the days when toxic typing didn't exist and it was sometimes handled as untyped (it was sometimes handled as fire also).|
Originally Posted by Codewalker
As I mentioned in our conversation earlier, I think the main reason it's considered "exotic" is the lack of typed defense for it. The tag does actually exist, as seen in your list, but isn't really used except for a couple powers, and no power in the game grants defense to it.
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| However, a lot of players have the misconception that Toxic damage is "untyped" and bypasses defense. That's not true at all. Virtually all powers that do toxic damage do have positional defense tags, and a solid number of them are also tagged with another damage type -- in most cases Lethal, but sometimes Energy or even Fire. So a set like Super Reflexes will probably have a lot less trouble with Toxic damage than a pure resist set, Granite excluded. |
With just a couple of rare exceptions, there are no toxic typed attacks. That means whether you have or don't have toxic *defense* is irrelevant. From an attack and defense perspective, toxic doesn't exist.
From a *damage* perspective, *if* the attack lands *then* if the damage is typed toxic, you need toxic resistances to resist it.
Defense blocks attacks, all or nothing. Resistance blocks damage, and only the kind its typed to affect. When we look at an attack before it hits us, the bundles of damage inside it are invisible to us. Its a ranged attack, or a smashing typed attack or a psionic typed attack or an AoE attack. Except for the rare exceptions GuyPerfect notes, there are no toxic attacks. So there's no toxic attacks to defend against either.
The way I look at attacks in CoH is that an attack is like a MIRV. Its a warhead with a lot of warheads inside of it. Defense attempts to intercept the attack while its still one container of stuff you can't see inside. If defense fails, the container opens up and all the little warheads hit you. Resistance works on each individual warhead separately, based on what it does: smashing damage, toxic damage, tohit debuff, terrorize, etc.
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Although I think people have followed on with some valid points I really like this type of guide. This is the sort of guide I really like to see and this is the sort of thing people imo should also come to know if they want to be successful despite seemingly overwhelming odds. I find it lame if people give up on what can actually be done because they do not know that they could allocate team members to specific tasks.
On high settings times many numbers, an Elec Tank can either; die quick because of some Toxic damage dealer adding to his woes or a Scrapper who has the survivability can confront that particular pain in the butt out of the equation and deal with it on the sidelines. Also rather than controllers knowing who to heal because they didn't lock down a particular member of an enemy group the controller knew who to lock down to have to heal less. I am sure some people farm easiest of enemies and get inf for pling so that they can build their toons; they probably don't need to know much about anything other than how to do a trial when incarnating and can mow the lawn so to speak but most people take time to get their properly. It's one way just getting by by knowing how to doing an expensive build but knowing the enemy is the interesting way for teams who are still on basic SOs or IOs to get through the game.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
You may recall my prior synopsis on Toxic damage. This one's more about the numbers, and where Toxic winds up in the game.
Q: What player powers deal Toxic damage?
The following Power Sets have some amount of dedicated Toxic output, generally as secondary DoT on attacks:
- Demon Summoning
- Dual Pistols (with Chemical Ammunition)
- Spines
- Thorny Assault
- Bane Spider Soldier
- Widow Training
There are also some oddball powers that deal it:- Bio Armor.DNA Siphon
- Bio Armor.Genetic Contamination
- Mace Mastery.Poisonous Ray
- Leviathan Mastery.Bile Spray
- Interface.Degenerative
Additionally, Toxic damage can be added to powers with the following Enhancements:- 20% for 71.7503 - Gladiator's Javelin: Chance for Toxic Damage (Ranged Damage, PvP)
- 20% for 71.7503 - Sting of the Manticore: Chance for Toxic Damage (Sniper Attacks)
- 8% for 35.3397 - Spider's Bite: Recharge/Chance for Global Toxic DMG (Arachnos Archetype, not yet released)
- 12% for 53.545 - Superior Spider's Bite: Recharge/Chance for Global Toxic DMG (Arachnos Archetype, not yet released)
The five greatest sources of Toxic damage for players are as follows:Q: What protects players from Toxic damage?
Most self heals and a few toggle shields provide Resistance to it. A few ally powers such as Frostwork and World of Pain will as well. Check your favorite Power Sets to see what's available.
Of note, Electric Armor doesn't come with any Toxic Resistance with the exception of Power Surge, whereas it does resist Psionic. It's the only set in the game specifically weak to Toxic.
Q: What about Toxic Defense?
There is a Defense type for Toxic, but presently no power--player or non-player--modifies it. A handful use the attack type, however:
Demon Summoning
- Hellfire Aura
- Hellfire Burst
D.U.S.T.- Toxic Burst
MaelstromQ: What enemies use Toxic damage?
The five greatest sources of Toxic damage are as follows:
- 1486.913 = Stheno's Venomous Spit
- 1224.517 = Stropharia's Spore Burst
- 1138.800 = Manticore's Acid Arrow (Dilemma Diabolique)
- 1137.051 = Stheno's Venomous Spray
- 1102.065 = Crimson, Indigo, Viridian and Shadow Spider's Poison Dart
Enemies particularly apt with Toxic damage:- Avatar of Hamidon - Devouring Earth
- Lamashtu - Talons of Vengeance
- Respiring Seedling - Devouring Earth
- Stheno - Snakes
- Stropharia - Devouring Earth
- Super Arachnoid - Arachnoids
- Toxic Tarantula - Arachnos
The following enemies and enemy groups deal Toxic damage:Entire Groups
- Arachnoids
- Arachnos
- D.U.S.T.
- Hydra
- Minions of Igneous
- Snakes
- Vahzilok
Circle of Thorns- Life Mage
- Thorn Tree
- Thorn Tree Vine
Crey- Spines Protectors
Devouring Earth- Avatar of Hamidon
- Devoured (including Pyriss and Terra)
- Mushroom beasts
- Mending Mitochondria
- Seedlings
Freakshow- Meat Doctors
Longbow- Agent Crimson
- Agent Indigo
- Spines Wardens
- Zenflower
Hellions- Cinderburn
- Girlfriend from Hell
Imperial Defense Force- Colonel Duray
- Heavy Commander
- Heavy Trooper
- Mobilie Artillery
- Riptide
Knives of Artemis- Blade of Artemis
Knives of Vengeance- Assassin
- Enforcer
- Vanquisher
Resistance- Basilisk
- Belladonna Vetrano
- Cockatrice
- Gorgon
- Phoenix
Tsoo- Copper Serpent
- Ink Men with darts
Miscellaneous EnemiesQ: What enemies are resistant to Toxic?
The following enemies are resistant to Toxic damage:
Signature Characters
- 75% Akarist
- 80% Anti-Matter
- 15% Aria
- 15% Back Alley Brawler
- 33% Baron Zoria
- 7.5% Belladonna Vetrano
- 15% Black Scorpion
- 22.5% Blue Steel
- 20% Bobcat
- 7.5% Cleopatra
- 20% Darrin Wade
- 10% Dillo
- 40% Dr. Aeon
- 15% Dr. Quatrexin
- 50% Dream Doctor
- 20% Ghost Widow
- 50% Jade Spider
- 20% Johnny Sonata's Soul
- 40% Lamashtu
- 40% Lord Recluse
- 20% Ice Mistral
- 20% Imperious
- 25% Infernal
- 25% Infernia
- 25% Nosferatu
- 40% Professor Echo
- 15% Radio, The
- 30% Regent Korol
- 70% Romulus (Longbow)
- 20% Rula-Wade
- 20% Sister Airlia
- 20% Statesman, The
- 15% Stern
- 25% Vince Dubrowski
- 30% Woodsman
- 15% Wretch
- 12.5% Zane
Special Enemies- 25% Adamastor
- 80% Avatar of Hamidon
- 33% Caleb
- 40% Deathsurge
- 95% Lord Winter
- 80% Seed of Hamidon, The
- 50% Shivan Obliterator
Global Enemy Group Resistances- 50% Arachnoids
- 40% Devouring Earth
- 20% Ghosts
- 75% Hydra
- 25% Lore pets
- 10% Resistance
- 50% Snakes
- 20% Spectral Pirates
- 15% Trolls
- 50% Tsoo
- 25% Tuatha de Dannon
- 90% Turrets (hard capped; actually 10,000%, so debuff-proof)
- 20% Vahzilok
- 30% Vanguard
Animus Arcana- -10% Vorpal Sword
- 10% Ward
Arachnos (20% global unless stated otherwise)- 30% Tarantula Mistress
- 50% Toxic Tarantula
- 50% Arachnos Heavy Blaster
Banished Pantheon- 50% Zombies
Circle of Thorns- 75% Arch-mages
- 20% Cold demons
- 16% Ice Thorn Caster
- 30% Spectral Daemons
Council- 25% Warwolves
D.U.S.T.- 15% Leader
- 25% Provost
- 15% Ranger
Longbow- 30% Ballista
- 25% Warden
Legacy Chain- 20% Legacy of Earth
Imperial Defense Force (35% global unless stated otherwise)- 30% Assault Trooper
- 30% Ranger
Soldiers of Rularuu- 40% Aspects
- 30% Brutes
Mastermind Henchmen- 6.536% Bruiser
- 12.45% Cold Demonling
- 6.536% Commando
- 24.9% Ember Demon
- 12.45% Fiery Demonling
- 26.145% Grave Knight
- 37.35% Hellfire Demonling
- 37.35% Hellfire Gargoyle
- 26.145% Lich
- 26.145% Spirit
- 26.145% Tortured Soul
- 26.145% Wraith
- 26.145% Zombie (Necromancy)
Pets- 50% Acid Mortar
- 80% Animated Stone
- 50% Arachnos Mini Blaster
- 40% Bladegrass
- 90% Singularity (hard capped from 100%)
- 30% Spectral Daemon
- 40% Toxic Tarantula
- 50% Umbra Beast
- 50% Vanguard HVAS
- 25% Warwolf
- 26.145% Zombie (Loa Bone)
Miscellaneous EnemiesQ: So is Toxic an "exotic" damage type?
No, it is not. Compared to other lesser-resisted damage types like Cold and Negative Energy, it's not even the "most exotic" among them as far as enemies are concerned. Quite a number of enemies will toss high amounts of Toxic at you, and quite a few will resist it. In some cases, their resistance to Toxic makes them very difficult to fight with it.
In terms of player powers, virtually nothing outright deals Toxic or protects from it. That would hold some merit in PvP, if not for the fact that in PvP all damage is resisted. Player resistances to Toxic are less than enemies, and player Toxic output is nearly non-existent. Toxic damage from player characters is simply rare. It is not more powerful or "exotic" by any means.
It is possible to specialize in Toxic, however. Arachnos Soldiers have access to three of the top 5 Toxic dealers available to players, and two of those are AoEs. Combined with the DoT of the Mace melee attacks and Degenerative Interface, specialized player character builds can have a medium-to-high amount of Toxic damage going out.
Protection-wise, there's not much players can do. Then again, I haven't seen the numbers for Bio Armor.