Why all the Musculature hate? My reasons for using it as a min / maxer.
Note I posted this from my Iphone... Please forgive the shorter sentence structure or any small grammar mistakes.
It's way, way better on scrappers. If you want to go musculature, why not just make a scrapper instead? Personally I consider it to basically be one of the perks of the scrapper archetype that brutes effectively don't get.
Musculature for scrappers is like a curse for me. If i don't get it on any of mine i feel like i'm doing it wrong.
Edit: But brutes just don't seem to benefit as much from musculature, although i've never tried it on any of my brutes.
Musculature vs Cardiac/Spiritual/whatever is already a tough decision on many Scrapper builds; Brutes gain substantially less benefit from Musculature, but the same from Cardiac/Spiritual/whatever. So those usually win.
If your build gets more benefit from an extra 15 fury than from any other Alpha, hey, more power to you. Such builds do exist, they're just less common than they are in the Scrapperspace.
Musculature...hmm...where to begin...
On a brute, yes musculature adds damage...however, 15% sounds like a lot...but...when you factor in that adding solely that ATO proc gives that much or even more...
There are many other things I look for in an Alpha...other than just damage. Recharge, end mod if my build is tight there, Defense boosts, resist boosts, end redux...
I haven't built a brute with musculature ever...seriously...and I have several friends who have and later built another alpha because the difference wasn't honestly as noticeable as it is with Scrappers, so the bang for your Incarnate trial time, is better spent elsewhere. I get much more mileage out of recharge and attacking faster, than I do out of attacking less quickly and they hit harder each time.
Currently Playing:
Rage King - SS/Regen Brute (50+3)
Soulfire Darkness - Dark/Fire Tank (50+2)
Deaths Final Embrace - Kat/Dark Brute (50+3)
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What about the incarnate benefits though? A judgement that deals 45% harder or lore pets that deal 45% more. Thats HUGE. Cimerorans I believe are 350 dps with muscular thats another 160 dps...
It also effects double hit dmg in hybrid.
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That's 398 total WITH Musculature slotted according to this.
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Originally Posted by Ultimus
Cimerorans I believe are 350 dps with muscular thats another 160 dps...
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Musculature definitely does not affect doublehit damage.|
Originally Posted by Ultimus
What about the incarnate benefits though? A judgement that deals 45% harder or lore pets that deal 45% more. Thats HUGE. Cimerorans I believe are 350 dps with muscular thats another 160 dps...
It also effects double hit dmg in hybrid. |
But yeah, making Judgement and Lore 45% more awesome is pretty cool, and doesn't care about AT modifiers. It doesn't change the way that Brutes get less benefit from Musculature than many ATs from the rest of their powers, both in terms of absolute gain, and proportionally. Musculature's benefit to other Incarnate powers is not secret; it's already factored into the comparison.
The forums, as usual, tend to exaggerate things. Musculature isn't worthless/trash/cripplingly bad/meaningless/etc on a brute. It's significantly less good than it is for a Scrapper, and so most Brute builds end up better off with another alpha power instead, but trading 30% recharge slotting for 30% damage slotting is not going to cripple your character, and for some builds is still the best choice available, especially since the "best" choice for a build is a heavily subjective thing.
Simple explanation, Musculature modifies base damage just like enhancements.
Bonus damage (Sets, Fury) ALSO work off of base damage.
In fact, Enhancements provide THE EXACT SAME BUFF as your global damage, it's just "per power" instead of total.
So, take a Tanker for example. If you're in a crowd and get Fulcrum Shift and you're global capped... your Damage enhancements are doing nothing. You could also argue that the BUFF did nothing, but it also did nothing for the last 100%.
Spiritual is almost never wasted, helps you get Perma Hasten, and often benefits survival as well.
For some ATs with HIGH base damage, say a Dominator, Musculature makes more sense.
But for me Musculature, on a Brute, just seems less and less important considering the lower base damage and plethora of +DMG, when you compare it to alternatives.
Yeah, it improves Incarnate power damage, but those are only a "decent" DPS add, at best. Mostly useful for their high DPA, and of course, AoE where applicable. Also debuff potential. Most of your damage, however, is still coming from your base character build, and Musculature just does not add up to as much damage as you'd think.
Oh yeah, 2/3 of it ignores ED - not too shabby - the other potion is basically diminished to nothing. Consider that with a lot of builds, you're still able to ED cap your DMG, but not the RECH or some other stats of your powers, you'll see you often get the full effect of them.
-Proud leader of Captain Planet's Magical Friends
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That was my biggest problem with switching my alpha from Musculature to Agility. |
Originally Posted by Ultimus
What about the incarnate benefits though? A judgement that deals 45% harder.
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I really don't think your alpha should work with Judgement because Musculature is basically the "only" alpha that get's the benefit...which seems "unfair" to me.
However, I went with Agility for the +rec/+def...because I don't use Judgement enough to slot an alpha just for that ability...and I never use Lore outside of itrials.
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The hold Alpha also has a damage component, the -end alphas reduce the cost of judgement and lore, the +acc alphas boost judgement and lore while the +res, +def and +healing alphas effect Barrier, Rebirth and other incarnate powers respectively
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Originally Posted by Vitality
That was my biggest problem with switching my alpha from Musculature to Agility.
I really don't think your alpha should work with Judgement because Musculature is basically the "only" alpha that get's the benefit...which seems "unfair" to me. However, I went with Agility for the +rec/+def...because I don't use Judgement enough to slot an alpha just for that ability...and I never use Lore outside of itrials. |
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My point is that...for judgement...other +acc +tohit buffs outside of the alpha slot will help out Judgement acc...and of course +rec buffs outside of alpha +end red will help the end cost indirectly. Musculature Alpha is the only way to increase the damage of Judgement.|
Originally Posted by Cheetatron
The hold Alpha also has a damage component, the -end alphas reduce the cost of judgement and lore, the +acc alphas boost judgement and lore while the +res, +def and +healing alphas effect Barrier, Rebirth and other incarnate powers respectively
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I can pop yellows to increase the acc of it...I can pop blues after or before I use it to help out with the end cost...I can't pop reds to increase the damage.
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And +def/+res Alphas are the only way to boost Barrier. It's a give and take. It's the same reason we have only so many slots for our builds, and so many power choices. You have to make a choice. And while you may prefer to see it as limited, there's still a choice there. You can boost this, or that. Not everything. |
Originally Posted by Vitality
Musculature Alpha is the only way to increase the damage of Judgement.
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I can't remember what they call it... ballet... balloon... what's the word I'm looking for?... OH YEAH! BALANCE!
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
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My point was that I don't think any Alphas should work with incarnate abilities.|
Originally Posted by Rylas
And +def/+res Alphas are the only way to boost Barrier. It's a give and take. It's the same reason we have only so many slots for our builds, and so many power choices. You have to make a choice. And while you may prefer to see it as limited, there's still a choice there. You can boost this, or that. Not everything.
I can't remember what they call it... ballet... balloon... what's the word I'm looking for?... OH YEAH! BALANCE! |
+damage Alphas boosts the damage of your primary/secondary/power pool attacks...and Judgement.
+recharge Alphas only boost your primary/secondary/power pool powers.
Where is your balance on that?
There is no tier 4 alpha boost that only gives +recharge, all of them enhance other incarnate powers in one way or another. Why does it bother you so much that some of them enhance different powers?
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Recharge is the exception, not the rule. The incarnate powers are exempt from recharge buffs because they are balanced around particular uptimes. Like Strength of Will for example. Since recharge can't buff SoW, should we make all enhancements stop buffing all powers?
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Originally Posted by Vitality
My point was that I don't think any Alphas should work with incarnate abilities.
+damage Alphas boosts the damage of your primary/secondary/power pool attacks...and Judgement. +recharge Alphas only boost your primary/secondary/power pool powers. Where is your balance on that? |
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Obviously the Devs didn't want Judgement and Destiny coming up any faster. |
Originally Posted by Vitality
My point was that I don't think any Alphas should work with incarnate abilities.
+damage Alphas boosts the damage of your primary/secondary/power pool attacks...and Judgement. +recharge Alphas only boost your primary/secondary/power pool powers. Where is your balance on that? |
The balance comes in the options you take. You want to max out damage potential? Take a +damage with your Judgement. Want maxed out survival? Take an alpha for your Destiny. Improve one or the other. Or don't. But they obviously don't want you maxing out both potentials with your alpha.
Makes sense to me. Nothing to get upset about.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
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No one is upset...it's just my opinion that Alphas should not boost Incarnate abilities.|
Originally Posted by Rylas
Obviously the Devs didn't want Judgement and Destiny coming up any faster.
The balance comes in the options you take. You want to max out damage potential? Take a +damage with your Judgement. Want maxed out survival? Take an alpha for your Destiny. Improve one or the other. Or don't. But they obviously don't want you maxing out both potentials with your alpha. Makes sense to me. Nothing to get upset about. |
Outside Defense/Resisance/Healing/HP/Recharge/Rec boost can make your alpha boosted Destiny power "not needed".
Musculature will always make Judgement do the extra damage. You never "lose" the boost to Judgement from Musculature through outside buffs.
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Its explicitly designed to do so: this was discussed when Alpha was being beta tested. It is an explicit feature of the Alpha slot that each alpha ability would interact with the other powers in the incarnate system in different ways, presenting a choice to the player within the system itself.|
Originally Posted by Vitality
No one is upset...it's just my opinion that Alphas should not boost Incarnate abilities.
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That's one of the reasons Alpha exists at all: its the only way to buff the other incarnate powers.
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We are still presented with a choice within the system itself through the different trees. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Its explicitly designed to do so: this was discussed when Alpha was being beta tested. It is an explicit feature of the Alpha slot that each alpha ability would interact with the other powers in the incarnate system in different ways, presenting a choice to the player within the system itself.
That's one of the reasons Alpha exists at all: its the only way to buff the other incarnate powers. |
While that may be one of the reasons Alpha exists at all...I believe the boosts to our primary/secondary/power pools are the main reason...since the Alpha is the very first Incarnate power we unlock.
Edit: As for SoW...and also One with the Shield...they are part of a powerset. Within that powerset...other powers are boosted by +rech. If you look at Incarnate abilities as a "powerset"...not a single incarnate ability is boosted by +recharge.
I'm fine with how the choices can be made as is. You want extra raw damage, take an alpha that boosts damage. You don't think it's worth it, take some other alpha. If musculature wasn't worth it, and you choose another, why does it need to be nerfed to not affect Judgement and Lore. If everyone always took musculature, then maybe I'd think about that argument, but plainly that's not the case. Based on player responses, Reactive is the one I'd look at (not that I want any of them nerfed, mind you).
To the OP. Gods yes. I love my musculature. Now, I didn't take it on both my Incarnate Brutes, but the one that didn't take it, is still planning to as shards just sorta show up, but at present he's mostly collecting threads. The Brute I did take Musculature on, I love it. I love the damage and the extra endurance. Can't wait till I get my Cimerorans at T4 to go with.
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Because recharge is more impactful than just about everything else, if recharge alphas effect incarnate powers too there would be no need for the other alphas|
Originally Posted by Vitality
We are still presented with a choice within the system itself through the different trees.
While that may be one of the reasons Alpha exists at all...I believe the boosts to our primary/secondary/power pools are the main reason...since the Alpha is the very first Incarnate power we unlock. Edit: As for SoW...and also One with the Shield...they are part of a powerset. Within that powerset...other powers are boosted by +rech. If you look at Incarnate abilities as a "powerset"...not a single incarnate ability is boosted by +recharge. |
This all or nothing "my choice has caveats I don't like so your choice should have the same caveat" idea is the stuff of harrison bergeron
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Originally Posted by Cheetatron
The hold Alpha also has a damage component, the -end alphas reduce the cost of judgement and lore, the +acc alphas boost judgement and lore while the +res, +def and +healing alphas effect Barrier, Rebirth and other incarnate powers respectively
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Originally Posted by Vitality
My point is that...for judgement...other +acc +tohit buffs outside of the alpha slot will help out Judgement acc...and of course +rec buffs outside of alpha +end red will help the end cost indirectly. Musculature Alpha is the only way to increase the damage of Judgement.
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You will never "lose" the boost to Destiny/Hybrid/whatever from your other Alpha powers, either. They may become unnecessary with sufficient buffs/debuffs, but the same can be said of increased damage on Judgement. When Judgement one-shots minions to begin with, allowing it to one-shot them harder is not a particularly exciting improvement. I have absolutely been on teams when my Judgement damage was meaningless; this is not a purely theoretical point.
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Originally Posted by Vitality
No one is upset...it's just my opinion that Alphas should not boost Incarnate abilities.
Outside Defense/Resisance/Healing/HP/Recharge/Rec boost can make your alpha boosted Destiny power "not needed". Musculature will always make Judgement do the extra damage. You never "lose" the boost to Judgement from Musculature through outside buffs. |
I have played around with a lot of Alphas. I have a love for recharge so I wanted spirit and went with it on most of my brutes for a while but the extra damage for musculature just does more for my brutes. Now I use Musculature on all my brutes. I do have at least 2 back up alpha on all my brutes. I just pick the one I feel is best rounded and one just for survivability just so I have it. I never use back ups. Musculature damage bonus is just too sweet.
I know the damage for musculature on scrappers is better due to higher base damage on their powers and brutes have much lower base damage but I still see most benefit out of musculature.
Now I could see skipping musc and going with spirits or cardio if you had end, recharge issue or survival issues but I think barrier and ageless are better at addressing those.
If you give musculature a real run, is really hard to go back.
I have two builds SS/Fa and TW/fa that I been playing lately. I like musculature and here is why:
1) Its like having a perma 15 extra fury. 1 fury = 2% damage. Everyone hails the new brute ATO proc which allowed fury to go from 80 (That was the cap I can show the numbers why if requested) to 100. The ATO puts things into perspective.
2) Damage increases are flat NOT diminishing returns. People always make it sound like damage gives DR but its additive. Example, if you are at 700% or 100% damage buff another 30% is still 30%. For example, if your base DPS is 100 a 30% increase gives 30 more dps. At 700% its still 30 dps increase.
3) It effects other incarnate powers. Your judgement will hit harder and possibly one shot bosses on crits... The big increase is lore pets. Cimerorans + Musculature is amazing dps.
4) Recharge alpha gives DR. This does numerically give DR. Example would be 100% recharge will halve recharge time yet adding 300% recharge will only bring that number up to 1/5.