My opinions within:
- A step in the right direction, but not enough. Control-wise, the set is still behind a lot of the others and the extra damage is pretty pointless for Dominators. I'm satisfied with the changes to Singularity in particular. Propel is probably the best it's going to get, the others are still a bit annoying to use. It's a shame the leaked Universal Damage Proc (Knockback to Knockdown) won't be able to be used in Wormhole.
- Good up until you get the dog where, if you insist on playing with sound on, it gets irritating. It wasn't worth the wait. It's not special at all. I'd say it's pretty good though, not as good as Plant but certainly better than Gravity and Ice.
- Dark Assault is fine but a bit predictable. It wasn't really worth the wait. It could have been done ages ago really - if the FX for a new Dark PBAoE could have been made in a matter of days then it could have come alongside the other Dark proliferations. It's got a self-heal, but other than that it's not that uniqur. I think it's pretty good and certainly one of the safer sets thanks to its to-hit debuffs.
- As far as I'm concerned there are no new sets coming out for the foreseeable future. So no, I'm not really that ok. Radiation Defence is boring but it's obvious that the Powers Panel devs wanted a set that wouldn't require too much effort for both animations and FX. It would have been nice to have Air Control or Magnetic Control, but hopefully the devs made notes of them for the future.
- I play on Defiant so the population is pretty small anyway. I also tend to solo.
- I find that I turn into a weaker Blaster because control tends to be a bit pointless. Though I do take a lot of enjoyment in sapping an AV dry on my Electric/Electric/Mu.
- It'll probably never happen. If it does then it'll not be what everyone expects from Illusion Control, for example Phantom Army will be nerfed, Group Invisibility will stay, Superior Invisibility will go.
- Ice Control, definitely. Gravity Control could do with another pass but that's extremely unlikely to ever happen again.
- I'd like to see Gadget Control, Magnetic Control, Beast Control, Air Control and Water Control.
1. Gravity still sucks and the changes to it have caused some global problems with phasing in general. The set still needs serious help. When poorly used Dimension Shift and Wormhole can seriously grief your team. The propel changes are for controllers and mostly pointless for doms. Singy is still good and again still better for controllers.
2. Not worth the wait. I personally dislike that the AoE immob is a cone power. It makes it even harder to mesh with dom secondaries. It's a better set for controllers than doms and though not on the bottom it is near it.
3. Not worth the wait, not unique enough, and its damage is a bit low. It would be better if they had broken the "dom mold" and excluded the snipe and changed the cone power to a TAoE so that it would be easier to use when combined with a primary that has a damage toggle or other Aura type power.
4. Meh. No. No.
5. Dominator population spiked during the Dom revamp but has settled back down again. It's still higher than it was before but not as high as it should be.
6. Standard Dom is problematic. Perma Doms are excellent.
7. Never really cared for illusion on controllers but I can't see it being better as a Dom primary. The tier 1 power is essentially useless except as perhaps a mob finisher. Most of the rest of the set won't benefit from domination which makes it pretty pointless. I could do without this being proliferated.
8. All the primaries could use some work but particularly Grav, Ice, and Fire (and in that order too). We give up mez duration because of domination but get nothing back on primary powers that are not affected by domination. Additionally all the secondary power sets should be adjusted. One of the reasons dominators are not as popular as they should be is that it is difficult to get the most out of the AoE that is available because the PBAoE does not mesh well with the Cone power. The devs could solve this by giving the option of selecting a similar TAoE power instead of the cone.
9. Martial arts/Shuriken, Gravitic assault could be cool if it was done properly, Kinetic assault could be unusual, and a Broadsword/Archery set would be fun if the animations were sped up to account for double redraw or if redraw could be removed from that combination.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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What problems has the DS change caused? From my testing it seemed to be acting pretty consistently... more so than the old DS. I'm curious to know what problems have cropped up.
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
1. Gravity still sucks and the changes to it have caused some global problems with phasing in general. The set still needs serious help. When poorly used Dimension Shift and Wormhole can seriously grief your team. The propel changes are for controllers and mostly pointless for doms. Singy is still good and again still better for controllers.
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Personally, I wouldn't count those things as off the table. There HAVE to be other Control/Assault sets coming. There simply CAN'T not be.
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Originally Posted by Snowzone
It would have been nice to have Air Control or Magnetic Control, but hopefully the devs made notes of them for the future.
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- They are ok overall. The set plays a little better, but that's mostly due to Singularity and Wormhole.. which isn't all that different than before. Propel and impact can be amusing on a Dom..but that's about it.
- Snooze! "Haunt and Possess" are visually striking and fun to use. "Shadow Field" offers to-hit debuff and a nice Hold. The rest of the set is 'ok'. But I think the powers designer(s) took the easy way out with the pet. There was a chance to do something cool with "Umbra Beast" and instead we got a big shadowy dog. It's not thematic at all...in my opinion.
- I like "Dark Assault"! I'm a fan of it in fact.. a self-heal on a Dom? Yes please! It won't save your hide from a lot of damage...but it's fun! Engulfing Darkness is comprable to Psychic Shockwave in "OMG I can't believe they let us have this"..kind of way. I especially like this set when combined with Mind Control or Plant!
- At the end of the day Paragon Studios is a business.. and to stay in business you got to give the people what they want. I would love more Dom centric powers, but I'm also a realist. We're a smaller portion of the player base.
- I seems like I see more Dom's than I used to. But I'm wondering if that's because of "COH Freedom" more than any revamps. Many of them Mind/ Doms.
- It's almost impossible NOT to contribute on an iTrial. Doms/Controllers seem very desired for the BAF. But again, I think this is more to do with nature of how well-balanced the iTrials are. Almost any AT can contribute something useful to them.
- I think it will. But my guess is Doms are gonna get a tweaked version. Which if handled the way "Darkness Affinity" was for controllers.. could be a good thing. The set might need to have some powers like "Group Invisibility" swapped out for something that benefits from Domination.
- Ice Control and Grav still need more help! The others sets really aren't that bad. I would also love to have an alternative to the "Umbra Beast" pet in Darkness Control!
- I would love a Gadget (Tech) Control set! Other sets I'd like to see: Magnetism, Weather (Air) control, and Radiation Control!
My level 50 Dominators:
Madame Mindbender 50 Mind/Energy
Fly Agaric 50 Plant/Thorn
Nate Nitro 50 Fire/Psi
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Psuedo pets now share your phase state.|
Originally Posted by ketch
What problems has the DS change caused? From my testing it seemed to be acting pretty consistently... more so than the old DS. I'm curious to know what problems have cropped up.
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This is a pretty big bite for blasters especially if you used phase shift and depended on your psuedo pets while phased. Ice/ blasters that herded things cast Ice Storm, blizzard, used a Cab and then phased to wait out the recovery crash are now screwed.
Devices users that would stand in their mine pile, pull and then phase are likewise screwed.
If you are playing a PB and you use Photon Seekers and Quantum Flight you experience the same hit.
If you are playing with a grav toon that likes to use DS and you are a ranged focused squishy you either go into melee where you are toast or stay at range to utilize your build and contribute nothing.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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They did prior to this change as well. I tested a number of times with a grav/storm before and after the change. You couldn't, for example, cast Tornado and Lightning Storm then phase (using the Phase Shift or temp power Ethereal Shift) and still have your pets do damage. It had been this way for quite some time before the changes made to DS.|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
Psuedo pets now share your phase state.
This is a pretty big bite for blasters especially if you used phase shift and depended on your psuedo pets while phased. Ice/ blasters that herded things cast Ice Storm, blizzard, used a Cab and then phased to wait out the recovery crash are now screwed. Devices users that would stand in their mine pile, pull and then phase are likewise screwed. If you are playing a PB and you use Photon Seekers and Quantum Flight you experience the same hit. |
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| If you are playing with a grav toon that likes to use DS and you are a ranged focused squishy you either go into melee where you are toast or stay at range to utilize your build and contribute nothing. |
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Highlighted for emphasis. It simply went from a power that screwed up your team 100% of the time to a power that screws up your team slightly less than 100% of the time.|
Originally Posted by ketch
As opposed to prior DS where it cut off all your options? Even all options for all your teammates. At least now people can choose to engage in spite of DS rather than having to wait it out.
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My definition of a bad power is one where the team has to "do X in spite of power Y." Dimension shift is that power.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
1) at lvl 35 i'm solo'n grougs +2/5. It is all about the approach and I'm half cheating by Worm Holeing the baddies into the wall (a few get stuck into the wall). The changes are perfect other than it's still very dependant on Sigularity.
Last
Check out this!!!! http://www.youtube.com/user/LastRoninCoH/featured
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I wouldn't disagree that DS is a poor power. However, I think it's better than it was before even though the situations where it can be used productively are very limited. Personally, I thought it needed a taunt effect ala Omega Maneuver. |
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
Highlighted for emphasis. It simply went from a power that screwed up your team 100% of the time to a power that screws up your team slightly less than 100% of the time.
My definition of a bad power is one where the team has to "do X in spite of power Y." Dimension shift is that power. |
Overall, I'd say the Gravity changes were okay though they certainly favored controllers. Impact was a kludge for a problem that didn't really exist particularly for dominators. The changes to Wormhole, however, were very nice (increased radius, no longer notifies enemies). Both the increased radius and aggro-free nature have made it much easier to utilize. There's less need to wait for a teammate to engage first which means a dom can move ahead and position mobs before others attack and the increased radius means fewer mobs will be left behind. The changes to Singularity were also welcome, but brought along with it some changes in behavior (more inclined to move into melee) that I don't recall being corrected.
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That to me is kinda like saying that a 900lb person that has lost 100lbs is improved. He still has a terrific obesity problem and the real difference is negligible.|
Originally Posted by ketch
I wouldn't disagree that DS is a poor power. However, I think it's better than it was before even though the situations where it can be used productively are very limited. Personally, I thought it needed a taunt effect ala Omega Maneuver.
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Want to make dimension shift a power that works the way it should and won't grief your team? Give it a 30' PBAoE radius. The power only affects you and your teammates, it has a recharge of 1200 seconds and can be slotted for intangibility, recharge, and endurance reduction. When cast it lasts for 60 seconds and essentially gives the team the same ability that Carnie Illusionists have. The ability to fully attack but be unaffected by all in coming damage a portion of the time. 3.5 seconds of every 10 unenhanced and 7 seconds of every 10 at the ED cap for intangibility. (That would equate to 70% damage resistance for 60 seconds)
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| Overall, I'd say the Gravity changes were okay though they certainly favored controllers. Impact was a kludge for a problem that didn't really exist particularly for dominators. The changes to Wormhole, however, were very nice (increased radius, no longer notifies enemies). Both the increased radius and aggro-free nature have made it much easier to utilize. There's less need to wait for a teammate to engage first which means a dom can move ahead and position mobs before others attack and the increased radius means fewer mobs will be left behind. The changes to Singularity were also welcome, but brought along with it some changes in behavior (more inclined to move into melee) that I don't recall being corrected. |
If I mismanaged my time at work in that way I'd be looking for another job.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
I disagree with posters saying Darkness Control is not good; I am enjoying it and find it to be very effective. To use it effectively you need to be good at lining up cones though. It's probably one of the better sets if you don't include the broken-ness that is Seeds of Confusion.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
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It's an amazing set but it takes a while to "feel out" just like How Plant Control and Electric Control were seen as "just ok" when they first came out.
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Originally Posted by Moonlighter
I disagree with posters saying Darkness Control is not good; I am enjoying it and find it to be very effective. To use it effectively you need to be good at lining up cones though. It's probably one of the better sets if you don't include the broken-ness that is Seeds of Confusion.
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I agree. Darkness control is a solid set. However, I feel it's much better on a controller than a dom due to higher debuff numbers. The immobilizes also deal extra damage, though not as high as Fire or Plant's immobilizes, which benefits trollers more as well.|
Originally Posted by Moonlighter
I disagree with posters saying Darkness Control is not good; I am enjoying it and find it to be very effective. To use it effectively you need to be good at lining up cones though. It's probably one of the better sets if you don't include the broken-ness that is Seeds of Confusion.
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I think there is a distressing tendency for many to view control sets with only two tiers. It seems far too often if a set isn't performing at the level of Plant people want to relegate it to the garbage heap.
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Well Plant is broken because of Seeds. It gets the top tier Mind power at level 8, a power meant to round out a set that doesn't get pets. This is a set that also gets its top pets. If they made a set that got Imps at level 8 and still got a full cadre of powers on top of that everyone would play that too.
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Originally Posted by ketch
I agree. Darkness control is a solid set. However, I feel it's much better on a controller than a dom due to higher debuff numbers. The immobilizes also deal extra damage, though not as high as Fire or Plant's immobilizes, which benefits trollers more as well.
I think there is a distressing tendency for many to view control sets with only two tiers. It seems far too often if a set isn't performing at the level of Plant people want to relegate it to the garbage heap. |
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
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To be entirely honest dominators are designed in a 2 tiered fashion when domination is up and when it is down. That's why so many people recommend perma-dom there is a magnitude of performance difference.|
Originally Posted by ketch
I agree. Darkness control is a solid set. However, I feel it's much better on a controller than a dom due to higher debuff numbers. The immobilizes also deal extra damage, though not as high as Fire or Plant's immobilizes, which benefits trollers more as well.
I think there is a distressing tendency for many to view control sets with only two tiers. It seems far too often if a set isn't performing at the level of Plant people want to relegate it to the garbage heap. |
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Originally Posted by Moonlighter
Well Plant is broken because of Seeds. It gets the top tier Mind power at level 8, a power meant to round out a set that doesn't get pets. This is a set that also gets its top pets. If they made a set that got Imps at level 8 and still got a full cadre of powers on top of that everyone would play that too.
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-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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I'm not speaking of tiers of performance within a single set, but about performance across all sets. Domination does play a roll in that for dominators, but the same thing happens with controllers. For both ATs Plant is considered top tier, usually with the Earth and Mind for doms or Fire and Illusion for controllers. Everything else is placed "at the bottom or near it". There seems to be no recognition that there is a middle tier.|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
To be entirely honest dominators are designed in a 2 tiered fashion when domination is up and when it is down. That's why so many people recommend perma-dom there is a magnitude of performance difference.
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| I take the opposite view point. Plant is the status quo for dominators it being the ONLY primary specifically designed for dominators. All other sets are ports of controller primaries or a primary that was designed with both controllers and dominators in mind. I just think that the devs mostly missed the mark when they were porting the early control sets. |
I was wondering when this thread was going to take that turn.
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I'm not sure there is a middle tier and if there is it is probably Fire. The top tier performers have powers that allow you to either layer controls each spawn or allow you to defeat a spawn before your AoE controls expire. The bottom tier lack this.|
Originally Posted by ketch
I'm not speaking of tiers of performance within a single set, but about performance across all sets. Domination does play a roll in that for dominators, but the same thing happens with controllers. For both ATs Plant is considered top tier, usually with the Earth and Mind for doms or Fire and Illusion for controllers. Everything else is placed "at the bottom or near it". There seems to be no recognition that there is a middle tier.
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Since primary powers that do not benefit from domination are essentially transparent in this respect it separates the primaries pretty distinctly into top tier and bottom tier performers with virtually no middle ground.
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| Despite being designed for dominators, Plant seems to serve as the gold standard for controllers as well which is problematic. There are things in Plant that are of questionable design whether it was designed for controllers or dominators. For example, why does Seeds boast better accuracy and duration than similar every spawn controls? Why was Roots given nearly double damage compared to other AoE immobilizes? To compensate for the lack of containment perhaps? If so, why wasn't it reduced in the controller port? |
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
I would write a response to each individual item but I think it would detract from the overall response.
I think Dominators as an AT perform extremely well.
I think that power balance discussions are pretty much moot as long the player base as a whole demands uptweaks to sets but is unwilling to consider the possibility of taming gross overperformers. The amount of digital ink spilled over the alledged and real underperformances of Gravity and Ice Control, and even recent excellent recent sets like Staff Fighting and Dark Control, stand in stark contrast to the deafening silence with regard to the ridiculous overperformance of sets like Plant Control and Super Strength. Without any willingness to work with the developers when it doesn't suit our power gaming, I see little room to criticize the developers for any set that supposedly underperforms, because the standard of high performance is accidental, and in the eyes of many players and beta testers, sacrosanct.
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Following this logic Dark control would be a high tier set considering the fact than you can layer control more easily (due to two every spawn controls, Fearsome Stare and Heart of Darkness, both of which benefit from Domination) than Fire, Grav, or Ice, and arguably Mind; added to that the extra damage in both immobilizes and additional damage from pets. And yet, you've said of Dark, "though not on the bottom it is near it". However, it offers more damage and control than other sets.|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
I'm not sure there is a middle tier and if there is it is probably Fire. The top tier performers have powers that allow you to either layer controls each spawn or allow you to defeat a spawn before your AoE controls expire. The bottom tier lack this.
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| Since primary powers that do not benefit from domination are essentially transparent in this respect it separates the primaries pretty distinctly into top tier and bottom tier performers with virtually no middle ground. |
I think Snowzone gave a fair assessment of Dark; it's not Plant (few things are or should be) and it's far from performing as poorly as Grav or Ice. It lies in a middle tier which most certainly exists.
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| You are likely correct and I wouldn't be surprised if the devs neglected to check things going the other way. It seems pretty evident that the majority of control sets are balanced around controllers and then simply checked for outliers on doms. |
I'm tired and I no longer have the will or strength to debate on the subject of Plant Control. So let's balance it out so that it can be in line with or lower than the other sets. I love Oedipus_Tex's suggestion about adding Regen to Plant Control. The issue that the majority of Dominators and Controllers have with Plant Control is the fact that it out performs Fire when it comes to Control and Damage on the High End of the game or in general...so tell me what you think about these suggestions to balance it out and once again make Illusion and Fire the rightful damage/control kings.
- Add a Regen effect to almost Every power...much like the Nature Affinity Set(shh!). I will discuss this at a later time of course.
- Roots-fix the roots bugs completely and make sure it does slightly less damage than Living Shadows.
- Seeds of Confusion- A lot of people have said that this power is far to powerful especially considering the level that this power is available. Reduce the Mag 3 to Mag 2 and give the power maybe a high chance for a personal or pbaoe heal/regen/absorb.
- Carrion Creepers- Increase the Recharge enough to make this power non-permable but also significantly reduce the Endurance cost. Make it so that the Pet cannot proc at all when it comes to the incarnate powers. You can also add some kind of big regen or absorb boost as well.
Oh and since we are talking about Tiers here's my opinion of where the control sets stand. I'm am ranking by Control and then Damage.
Damage across the board
1. Plant Control
2. Fire Control
3. Illusion Control *Controllers Only
4. Dark Control
5. Gravity Control
6. Electric Control
7. Earth Control
8. Mind Control*Debatable
9. Ice Control
Control
1. Illusion Control* Only with Perma PA
2. Mind Control
3. Plant Control
4. Dark Control
5. Earth Control
6. Electric Control
7. Gravity Control
8. Ice Control
9. Fire Control
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Except that fearsome stare doesn't really work as a full control on dom - yes, you do delay the alpha and mitigate it somewhat with the -to hit on FS but unless you use a second control after FS you WILL eat a large part of the alpha. It doesn't help that dom's have pretty much the worst debuff modifer of any AT that gets powers like FS. On my dark/dark dom I find I pretty much have to open with FS then move in and fire off heart of darkness, then follow up with damage. If I open with fearsome stare then start attacking, I take way more return fire than is healthy for a low HP dom. If I skip FS and stealth in, then fire off heart of darkness for some reason EVERY single mob in the group gets to alpha me before the stun takes place. So for a dom I find dark control to be pretty sad, since it takes me 2 control powers to perform the funtion of 1. |
Originally Posted by ketch
Following this logic Dark control would be a high tier set considering the fact than you can layer control more easily (due to two every spawn controls, Fearsome Stare and Heart of Darkness, both of which benefit from Domination) than Fire, Grav, or Ice, and arguably Mind; added to that the extra damage in both immobilizes and additional damage from pets. And yet, you've said of Dark, "though not on the bottom it is near it". However, it offers more damage and control than other sets.
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Now on a controller I don't have that problem - my dark/dark controller can open with FS (slotted for -to hit) and follow up with the cone immob and rarely take any return fire. What little he does take can be made up with a heal. In fact, I have enough -to hit between FS and living shadows that I rarely have to use darkest night.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
Just curious to find out what everyone's thoughts are on:
Please buff Ice Control.