Vanity Travel powers need to remember toggles
By
Aggelakis,
Posted on: 2012-05-11 09:20 in Suggestions and Ideas
It probably wouldn't be impossible to do, but it likely would not be absolutely trivial either.
The game saves an overall "image" of the state of the character record as you're logging off. As far as we know it can only currently do this as a final "clean-up" activity while logging off. There's probably no current way to log the state of the toggles -while- you're actively playing. The data structure maintaining that info may only exist in the character record stored on disk.
So they'd have to come up with a way to keep track of that info dynamically as you're playing. This would add to the overall info they'd need to maintain in memory about your character while it's being played which is something that might not be as easy as it would seem. You'd instantly run into extra server bandwidth issues if nothing else.
Bottomline we should probably assume that if something like this was easy to do they probably would have already considered it.
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I hesitate to guess how easy it would be, but the logoff change does indicate it's possible.|
Originally Posted by Cerulean_Shadow
If the game can remember the toggles you had on between logins, I can't imagine it would be at all difficult to extend that to the vanity travel powers.
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More likely that the team would make newer, more expensive travel powers that do this and possibly offer (paid) upgrades for the existing ones.
I know that, for me, using the powers isn't worth retoggling, and thus I haven't purchased any since the hover board. If it did work this way (and I'm convinced it wouldn't be that difficult to code, but what do I know?) I'd probably buy them all.
I'd love to see a developer comment on this.
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Even easy things to code take -some- amount of time to implement. And the big hurdle you'd have to overcome is convincing the Devs there's enough of a need or desire for this.|
Originally Posted by Cerulean_Shadow
I know that, for me, using the powers isn't worth retoggling, and thus I haven't purchased any since the hover board. If it did work this way (and I'm convinced it wouldn't be that difficult to code, but what do I know?) I'd probably buy them all.
I'd love to see a developer comment on this. |
Sure I agree it would be nice if the vanity travel powers worked the way you suggest. But for all we know the Devs actually -want- these powers to be somewhat annoying to use because they don't want people using them to rush into MOBs too easily. The fact that these powers force people to manually retoggle keeps them from being abused in combat situations.
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I would imagine what with the new shapeshifting EAT coming out, the problem of toggle suppression will be dealt with, one way or another. I hope. The question becomes whether or not they'll extend that tech outside of the powerset.
I'm not sure how the vanity travel powers could ever be abused. None of them are, for example, as fast as the regular Fly, which you can now get at level 6. Or maybe you meant something else?
More than likely, I think they just didn't think about it (like enhancement catalysts not being useful after you've gotten six) or didn't want to take the time to code it.
I do think they'd sell more of the vanity travel powers if retoggling wasn't an issue.
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If you could use Flying Carpet or Rocket Board to zoom in over MOBs and dive bomb into them by simply shutting off the travel power and have all your toggles back up instantly I could see how that could be borderline abusive, especially if you could do that with a "temp" travel power that didn't take up one of your other power slots like Fly or SS do.|
Originally Posted by Cerulean_Shadow
I'm not sure how the vanity travel powers could ever be abused. None of them are, for example, as fast as the regular Fly, which you can now get at level 6. Or maybe you meant something else?
More than likely, I think they just didn't think about it (like enhancement catalysts not being useful after you've gotten six) or didn't want to take the time to code it. I do think they'd sell more of the vanity travel powers if retoggling wasn't an issue. |
Remember the Devs gave us Ninja Run and Beast Run which DON'T have the toggle suppression on them. This tells me that they specifically wanted to have toggle suppression on things like Flying Carpet or the Rocket Board on purpose. I seriously don't think it was merely "an accident" that those powers got saddled with toggle suppression.
And as far as the "if the Devs did X, Y or Z they would sell a bunch more of them" argument goes it's pretty clear that they make things work the way they want them to REGARDLESS of how it might impact sales. For example if they really wanted to sell a whole bunch of Server Transfer tokens they could easily make them cost only like 50 points each. Sometimes it's not really about how much money they might make or lose - sometimes they simply want to maintain game balance regardless.
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The reason flying carpet, et al. toggles powers had nothing to do with game play. They've even said this, if not on the forums on one of the "Freedom Friday" Facebook threads. It was solely because the powers put your toon into one specific pose (eg: standing with your arms folded on the carpet) and if you had access to your powers you could alter that post, and they didn't want to program for that. It was just easier to not allow movement out of that pose. Ditto the coyote. They didn't want to program for a coyote swinging a sword, etc.
Your argument of abuse falls flat when you take into consideration jetpacks. Jetpacks don't take up a slot, they're free, and you could do exactly what you hypothesized doing with a jetpack: fly over an enemy, toggle the jetpack off, and attack.
Ninja Run and Beast Run are the same speed as coyote, yet, as you pointed out, toggles aren't suppressed when using either of those powers. They are with coyote because said powers could toggle the form or pose of the coyote, hence the suppression. If you draw your sword with ninja run or beast run activated, it simply moves your toon into the regular "sword" position. No new animation required.
You are right that it wasn't "an accident" that powers are toggled off, but rather than a power abuse issue it's because it makes programming those particular travel powers easier. I have absolutely no problem with that. I just want the toggles to come back on when you deactivate the power.
I'm not trying to argue with you, I just wanted to get past the whole "possible abuse" angle because that isn't the issue. If re-toggling is extremely difficult then I can see not altering the powers to work as I've suggested. I just don't think that is the case.
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Originally Posted by Cerulean_Shadow
I know that, for me, using the powers isn't worth retoggling, and thus I haven't purchased any since the hover board. If it did work this way (and I'm convinced it wouldn't be that difficult to code, but what do I know?) I'd probably buy them all.
I'd love to see a developer comment on this. |
They already have commented on this topic.
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Originally Posted by Clockwork O1
It requires the modification of every animation currently existing in the game to work with these movement modes.
Furthermore, it requires every new animation created in the game going forward to be created with these additional movement modes in mind, increasing the number of animations needed for every new power set, emote, etc. This is not a simple request, it is an exponential increase in time and work for every new animation that is put into the game. |
Nothing has changed since that post except that the devs have added even more power sets which increases the amount of work they'd have to do to each vanity travel power.
Did you read the whole thread? I don't care if powers are toggled or not while using the travel powers, I just want them automatically retoggled AFTER you click them off, like what happens now when you log into the game. THAT they have not commented on.
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I'm not 'trying' to argue with you either. I'm actually well aware of the "animation issues" concerning these powers. But I'll point out that if the Devs weren't at least secondarily happy with the idea that toggle suppression prevents abuses then why are most of the traditional travel powers subjected to travel suppression where there is no question there is no issue with animations in those cases? I realize it may be a little tricky to understand what's going on here but toggle suppression is actually serving at least TWO purposes, not just one. The need to manually re-toggle is a game balance mechanic.|
Originally Posted by Cerulean_Shadow
The reason flying carpet, et al. toggles powers had nothing to do with game play. They've even said this, if not on the forums on one of the "Freedom Friday" Facebook threads. It was solely because the powers put your toon into one specific pose (eg: standing with your arms folded on the carpet) and if you had access to your powers you could alter that post, and they didn't want to program for that. It was just easier to not allow movement out of that pose. Ditto the coyote. They didn't want to program for a coyote swinging a sword, etc.
Your argument of abuse falls flat when you take into consideration jetpacks. Jetpacks don't take up a slot, they're free, and you could do exactly what you hypothesized doing with a jetpack: fly over an enemy, toggle the jetpack off, and attack. Ninja Run and Beast Run are the same speed as coyote, yet, as you pointed out, toggles aren't suppressed when using either of those powers. They are with coyote because said powers could toggle the form or pose of the coyote, hence the suppression. If you draw your sword with ninja run or beast run activated, it simply moves your toon into the regular "sword" position. No new animation required. You are right that it wasn't "an accident" that powers are toggled off, but rather than a power abuse issue it's because it makes programming those particular travel powers easier. I have absolutely no problem with that. I just want the toggles to come back on when you deactivate the power. I'm not trying to argue with you, I just wanted to get past the whole "possible abuse" angle because that isn't the issue. If re-toggling is extremely difficult then I can see not altering the powers to work as I've suggested. I just don't think that is the case. |
Bottomline there are MANY reasons why the Devs will likely never remove toggle suppression from these powers or make it easier to re-toggle afterwards, not the least of which is that they'll probably not want to waste the development time on it. The animation issue is a big one in this mix, but it's not really any more important than overall game balance which will always trump everything else.
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Originally Posted by Cerulean_Shadow
. . .<Snip!> I just want them automatically retoggled AFTER you click them off, like what happens now when you log into the game. <Snip!> . . .
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Exactly, completely, in total, this is WHAT.I.WANT.
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It's actually probably safe to say that everyone would prefer it to work this way.|
Originally Posted by Remaugen
Exactly, completely, in total, this is WHAT.I.WANT.
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Doesn't mean it's going to happen.
No one really likes travel suppression either yet we've had it in this game for years.
It's a game balance mechanic. The Devs could have easily made this thing work in a way that would have allowed toggles to automatically reactivate after shutting off the travel power yet they DIDN'T make it work like that. The reason for that almost couldn't be more obvious to me. *shrugs*
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Oh, I understand perfectly what you're trying to say. I just think you're wrong. De-toggling powers was easier than creating new animations or setting the powers to re-toggle after deactivating the vanity travel power, so they went with that. Occam's Razor. The simplest answer is most often correct. |
Originally Posted by Lothic
I'm not 'trying' to argue with you either. I'm actually well aware of the "animation issues" concerning these powers. But I'll point out that if the Devs weren't at least secondarily happy with the idea that toggle suppression prevents abuses then why are most of the traditional travel powers subjected to travel suppression where there is no question there is no issue with animations in those cases? I realize it may be a little tricky to understand what's going on here but toggle suppression is actually serving at least TWO purposes, not just one.
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| Bottomline there are MANY reasons why the Devs will likely never remove toggle suppression from these powers, not the least of which is that they'll probably not want to waste the development time on it. The animation issue is a big one in this mix, but it's not really any more important than overall game balance which will always trump everything else. |
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Again, please explain this presumptive abuse of power. How is Coyote run different than ninja or beast run? How is flying carpet or hover board different than a jet pack? What advantages could they possibly give a player that their non-detoggled vanity travel powers do not?
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Originally Posted by Lothic
The reason for that almost couldn't be more obvious to me. *shrugs*
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Right the simplest answer is most often correct. We have Travel suppression in this game for a reason. We have Toggle suppression in this game for a similar reason. |
Originally Posted by Cerulean_Shadow
Oh, I understand perfectly what you're trying to say. I just think you're wrong. De-toggling powers was easier than creating new animations or setting the powers to re-toggle after deactivating the vanity travel power, so they went with that. Occam's Razor. The simplest answer is most often correct.
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Originally Posted by Cerulean_Shadow
Again, how is flying carpet any more abusive than jet pack? And how does Coyote run fit into all of that? It's no better than Ninja and Beast run, which don't suffer from toggle suppression. Where is the game balance issue?
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Originally Posted by Cerulean_Shadow
Again, please explain this presumptive abuse of power. How is Coyote run different than ninja or beast run? How is flying carpet or hover board different than a jet pack? What advantages could they possibly give a player that their non-detoggled vanity travel powers do not?
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Coyote Run includes a Stealth component. Apparently that makes a difference to the Devs as well.
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Not to be rude, but did you try using a macro/keybind?
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Why do you assume to speak for the "devs"? You can have your opinion, but it just doesn't jibe with me. You can buy a jet pack recipe for 20 influence on the market. For all intents and purposes, they're permanent.
And you've YET to explain the different between flying over a group of mobs with a flying carpet or hover board as opposed to the jet pack. Where's the big advantage?
The bottom line is, in my view, they suppressed the toggles because it was the easiest option. I could point out a multitude of similar instances in the game, where something doesn't work in the best way possible simply because it was easier to leave it as-is.
If you want to argue that it would be too much work to set powers to re-toggle after deactivating a vanity travel power, I'd have to shrug and say for all I know maybe you're right and hope that a developer would follow up on the question. But the game balance argument doesn't pass the smell test, given the inconsistencies I've already pointed out.
When I point out that the jet pack provides the same advantage that the flying carpet does, you resort to "Jet Packs are not permanent travel powers. Apparently that makes a difference to the Devs." That's a huge assumption.
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I've thought about it, Kirsten, and may eventually do that if this issue remains unchanged.
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Originally Posted by Kirsten
Not to be rude, but did you try using a macro/keybind?
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Sure I don't directly "speak" for the Devs. But I have been playing this game since CoH beta so I'm pretty confident that my "opinion" is based on the sound history and precedent the Devs have established.|
Originally Posted by Cerulean_Shadow
Why do you assume to speak for the "devs"? You can have your opinion, but it just doesn't jibe with me. You can buy a jet pack recipe for 20 influence on the market. For all intents and purposes, they're permanent.
And you've YET to explain the different between flying over a group of mobs with a flying carpet or hover board as opposed to the jet pack. Where's the big advantage? The bottom line is, in my view, they suppressed the toggles because it was the easiest option. I could point out a multitude of similar instances in the game, where something doesn't work in the best way possible simply because it was easier to leave it as-is. If you want to argue that it would be too much work to set powers to re-toggle after deactivating a vanity travel power, I'd have to shrug and say for all I know maybe you're right and hope that a developer would follow up on the question. But the game balance argument doesn't pass the smell test, given the inconsistencies I've already pointed out. When I point out that the jet pack provides the same advantage that the flying carpet does, you resort to "Jet Packs are not permanent travel powers. Apparently that makes a difference to the Devs." That's a huge assumption. |
Can you explain to me why ALL forms of flight in this game either have travel suppression or toggle suppression? Sure I might be willing to agree with you that "forcing us account for retoggling powers" might actually be a more annoying form of game balance than basic travel suppression. But I would have to posit that as far as the Devs are concerned they are both accomplishing the same thing - they prevent us from kitting into MOBs without negative consequences.
You are fighting an uphill battle with this regardless of whatever I say about it. You are basically asking the Devs to make it easier for you to do something (specifically to fight without consequences while using these travel powers) that they've already gone out of their way to strictly DISCOURAGE via travel suppression. To put it bluntly I think you're spitting into the wind with this suggestion.
I wish you all the luck but please don't hold your breath for this...
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Let's just say I think you're going to become more knowledgeable about how binds/marcos work in this game. For what's it's worth I've been using hundreds of different binds for years and they have proven to be useful for all sorts of things.
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Originally Posted by Cerulean_Shadow
I've thought about it, Kirsten, and may eventually do that if this issue remains unchanged.
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Toggle the travel power, it buys a ton of shoes?
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Originally Posted by Lothic
Let's just say I think you're going to become more knowledgeable about how binds/marcos work in this game.
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They say this is the case but then how come when my Staff is out and I get mystic fortune cast of me I do a dragons tail. Did they animate staff so it could do dragons tail and if so why? What's the real deal I wonder?
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
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Nothing has changed since that post except that the devs have added even more power sets which increases the amount of work they'd have to do to each vanity travel power. |
Lucky666 -
When you say "Dragon's Tail" are you referring to the leg sweep animation?
It appears when you have your "Staff out"? Meaning you have the Staff Fighting powerset, and it only happens when you have recently clicked a power and the staff still appears in your character's hands? And then Mystic Fortune is cast on you by another player?
If so - PM me would you? And let me know where you saw this - on a Live server, or Beta...
I would appreciate it!
Arbiter Warrant
Our toggles are now "remembered" when we log off, for which I'm immensely grateful. However, why can't the same thing happen when using the magic carpet, hover board, coyote travel, etc.?
I love those powers, but detest that they turn all your toggles off. Can't they just TEMPORARILY turn off (suppress) your toggles and then, when you deactivate the power, turn them all back on again? That would make the travel powers so much more pleasant to use.
If the game can remember the toggles you had on between logins, I can't imagine it would be at all difficult to extend that to the vanity travel powers.
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